LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

Tue Apr 12 15:52:29 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 12.APR.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
> searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
> not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?

Darrin.

I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder") has got nothing to do with the
"hierdie/daardie" issue. "Yonder/ginder" is a derivation of the
demonstrative stem which still can be found in German: "jen-" (jener, jene,
jenes). The [d] seems to be original [if I may believe the etymological
dictionaries]. If not it could be epenthetic. Either hypothesis is better
than the asssumption that the d in "yonder/ginder" derives from
"there/daar". We don't say "yonther" after all.

Hans den Besten

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hans (above):

> I fear engl. "yonder" (du. "ginder")

Low Saxon has _günt_ ~ _gunt_ (> _güntsyds_ ~ _guntsyds_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Thanks Hans! I'm glad finally someone else who knows about this too reacts
to that supposedly Zeelandic origins of Afrikaans! Because that beautiful
language originates without doubt from South Holland Dutch, to be more
precise from the Dordrecht area where Van Riebeeck himself - the founder of
the Cape of Good Hope Dutch colony - was from. In Kloeke's Herkomst en
groei van het Afrikaans this Southern South Hollandic origins were proven
already long ago. On the other hand, Southern South Holland is not very far
from Zeeland and the South Holland islands - where Zeelandic is spoken as
well, so certain similarities in vocabulary, accent and expressions can be
expected. What's more: the fact that people from Zeeland - such as my
mother - recognise there own dialect in Afrikaans means something too, I
think. It would be interesting to know what native Afrikaanders would think
about this often claimed Zeelandic or other origins of their language, if
they would hear/read different Dutch dialects...

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]
>
>Finally a remark on "Zealandic" I'd wish that subscribers to Lowlands
>finally stop reviving this dead horse. It is absolutely clear that
>Afrtikaans is "Hollandic" in so far as Dutch dialect features are
concerned.
>This applies both to sounds and to words: Zealandic is a southern dialect
>and shares many words with Flemish dialects. [Where for instance
is "kachel"
>'foal' in Afrikaans?]  Furthermore, besides "ons" no other Zealandic
pronoun
>can be found in (the history of) Afrikaans. That is to say typical
Zealandic
>pronouns like "julder", "zulder", "wulder" and "joe'" [2PL, 3PL, 1PL and
2SG
>resp.] do not show up in Afrikaans Similarly for typical phonological
>properties of Zealandic: the strongly weakend [h] of Z does not show up in
>Afrikaans. Z   does not dipthongize {i:] and [y] and so only has <ei> and
><ui-2>. Afrikaans, being Hollandic, is a diphthongizing variety. Etc. etc.
>
>It is suprising that the Zealandic origins hypothesis, which experts --
>whatever their ideas about the origins of Afrikaans -- have rejected long
>ago still keeps popping up -- just like "Malayo-Portuguese", which is a
>definite misnomer for "(Bazaar) Malay and Asian Creole Portuguese".
>
>Hans den Besten
>
>R F Hahn:
>As for the Zeelandic theory, I ask that folks who wish to respond to it do
>so under "language varieties."
>
>On a personal note, I don't see why we ought to consider only "either ...
or
>..." instead of a multi-origin possibility.  As most of us know, Dutch was
>the official language at the Cape for a long, long time, and its influence
>would have been continuous as a written and "high" language.  So the
>existence of a very substantial Hollandic component can hardly be denied.

----------

From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

J.B. Besten wrote:
> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
searching
> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
not
> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

But there are equivalent strucutres in German dialects - Suebian, for
instance, spoken in Baden-Württemberg in the Southwest, uses "dahanna" (as
in "da hinten", over there). This can be modified into "da dahanna" and "do
dahanna" ("this one here" vs. "that one there").

I lived in Suebia for almost two years and was fascinated by those two
little words. Once, for instance, I was in line at the meat and sausage
counter in the supermarket. The lady in fromt of me said she wanted some of
the sausage "dahanna". The vendor asked: "Da dahanna oder do dahanna?"
Customer: "Do dahanna!" And then she gave her exactly the right sausage,
without any of them pointing or otherwise indicating at all (and this was in
Germany, so there were plenty of sausages to choose from).

Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: heather rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>What about "yonder"? <

OED:   yonder: over there : corresponds to Old Saxon  gendra ( adj)  West
Frisian ginder ( adj) = on this side    Middle Dutch  ghinder, gunder
(Dutch ginder)  Gothic jaindre.

yon = Old English  geon   correspondsa with variation of vowels to OFris
jen(a)   MLG  gene   MDu  ghens   OHG  jener   Goth   jains = that

There is a parallel series of forms without the initial consonant: OHG ener
 ON enn, inn  Oslav  onu  Sanskrit  ana = this one

It actually doesn't explain the -der  suffix

Heather

----------

From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Etymology

From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.10 (01) [F]

As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie", searching
for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am not
going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)

Hello Lowlanders,
I am not a linguist so this may be a silly observation but these 2 words
"hierdie and daardie" sound a lot like english hither and thither meaning
roughly here and there from OE hider
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================