LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.04.13 (09) [A/E]

Wed Apr 13 23:39:52 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 13.APR.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.13 (01) [A/E]

Darrin Speegle's quote from Scholtz's book is completely to the point but I
should have mentioned in my first posting that years ago I published a paper
in German which deals with these statements and my conclusion was -- and
still is -- that there is an aweful lot of wishful thinking and an absence
of a sound analysis in these remarks of Scholtz's.

On the other hand Scholtz is referring to a construction which could be
reanalyzed by  L2 speakers of Cape Dutch.

Wat is het geval?

First of all, we can say similar things in colloquial Dutch (colloquial
ABN). However the adverb is not part of the noun phrase. It is an attention
caller a pragmatic particle at the beginning of a sentence:

Hier, dit boek is vast wel iets voor jou. [OK]
Zullen we -- hier -- dit hondje dan maar kopen? [difficult, but comletely
ungrammaritical if the intonation breaks are left out]

Hier, met deze hamer lukt het misschien wel
*Met hier deze hamer  lukt het mischien wel [only 'possible' with intonation
breaks]

As for German: "dort der Holunderstrauch" does not contain a demonstrative
"dort  der" Those who accept "dort der Holunderstrauch" as a constituent
probably also accept "auf der Ecke der Mann" (as I was told people do, after
I had given my talk in Essen: H. den Besten "Üniversalgrammatik und/oder
Zweitsprachenerwerb: der Fall Afrikaans" in N Bortezky et al. (ed.) Beiträge
zum 4. Essener Kolloquium über "Sprachkontakt, Sprachwandel,
Sprachtod"....". Bochum: Brocklmeyer, 1988, pp. 11-44 (esp. 19-27).

Nevertheless, this colloquial structure may have given the impetus for the
construction of "hierdie"and "daardie"(AND "doerdie") in nonnative C ape
Dutch, as Roberge has pointed out in a recent article..

By the way: the oldest attestation for "daardie" has already been pushed
back to 1797 (paper by Raidt).

Hans den Besten

From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]

Wat hierdie en daardie betref, ek het iets in ``Wording en ontwikkeling
van Afrikaans" deur J. du P. Scholtz gekry wat dalk vir julle interessant
is.  Ek kon nie Hahn se oorspronklikke e-pos kry nie, ek hoop ek herhaal
nie wat hy daar gese^ het nie.  Ek haal aan:

Die teenstellende aanwysende voornaamwoorde hierdie en daardie is uit geen
Kaapse bron van voor 1850 opgeteken nie, wat egter nie beteken dat die
vorme eers in die 19de eeu in Afrikaans ontstaan het nie.  Die aanwysende
voornaamwoorde die' het hom net deur sterker aksent van die bepaalde
lidwoord die onderskei, en met die verdwyning van deze is die geleentheid
vergroot vir die ontwikkeling en verspreiding van nuwe teenstellende
aanwaysende voornaamwoorde.  Die neiging tot nadurlikheid en oormatige
aanwysing, wat 'n kenmerk van die vroee" Kaapse taalgebruik was, kon die
ontstaan van vorme soos hierdie en daardie in die hand werk.  Dit is
moontlik dat die aanloop tot die Afrikaanse formasies in die 17de-eeuse
Hollands moet gesoek word.  In die huidige Hollandse volkstaal is
konstruksies bekend wat na aan die Afrikaans staan (bv. "Hier die frome
is-ter dak en muur van de kerk"). en vergelykbare konstruksies kom ook al
in die 17de eeu voor (bv. "Hier de kopster, Neel slimmongs" - uit
Bredero).  Daar is trouens ook gewys op konstruksies uit 18de eeuse Duits
wat byna identiek met die Afrikaans is ("Dort der Holunderstrauch verbrigt
mich ihm" - uit Schiller).  Onafhanklike ontstaan van hierdie en daardie
deur verskuiwing in sinaktiese geleding van sinne soos "Sien jy daar die
man met die groen hoed?" is egter ook goed denkbaar.  Van vreemde
oorsprong, of selfs tipies Afrikaans, is die konstruksies in elk geval
nie, want hierdie en daardie is as (oormatig) aanduidende vorme ook in 'n
Brabantse dialek aangewys.

Beste,
Darrin Speegle

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.12 (01) [E]

No, <yonder> is of course not directly related to hierdie or daardie,
but to Dutch <ginder/daarginds> over there, <ginds> (adject) yonder,
Dutch LS <gunter> idem. Dutch has also relatives: degene <the one> = de +
gene, hetgeen <the one> (neutr) = het + geen.

But there are some words related to <hier>: Dutch <heden>, German Heute =
today (formal/archaic); <huidig> = present, today's. <her en der> here and
there. German: heurig = this year's.
Related to <daar>: dergelijk/diergelijk = similar, the like, or would those
be conjugated forms of articles <de> and <die>? And again <her en der>.

Ingmar

>From: Besten, J.B. den <J.B.denBesten at uva.nl>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (10) [E/LS]
>
>From: speegled at SLU.EDU <speegled at SLU.EDU>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>> As regards Hahn's posting concerning afr. "hierdie" and "daardie",
>> searching
>> for equivalent structures in Germanic will be useless. (That is why I am
>> not
>> going to consult the Zealandic dictionary.)
>
>Well, this is completely a stab in the dark, and probably wrong, and
>almost assuredly going to invoke the wrath of the antifolketymologists,
>but I just can't help myself.  What about "yonder"?  Perhaps I can at
>least get credit for the most outlandish conjecture?
>
>Darrin.

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