LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.02 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.AUG.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.31 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,
I have very often heard also in Japan that the "Standard German" is spoken
in the area of Hannover. Hannover belongs to the "Niederdeutsch" spoken
area, doesn't it?
I would like to know why such a story is made and spreaded. I think that
Hannover area should belong to the "Low Saxon" spoken area. About two years
ago I had a chance to speak with a "Studentin" from Hannover, and she told
me that she could not speak "Plattdeutsch". She speaks "Hochdeutsch" only,
and asked me why I am interested in "Plattdeutsch".  Also I was once asked
by a student from Kiel how to say "Wiedersehen" in Plattdeutsch. It seems
maybe curious.

Hartlich ut Japan,
Yasuji Waki

> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]
>
> Hello,
>
> just some stories about speaking "pure" High German. I frankly can't stand
> hearing "people in Hannover speak the purest High German" anymore....
> What's purest High German anyway. They happen to pronounce most of the
> High German words pretty closely to the "Hochlautung" or "Bühnenlautung"
> just because this construct was based on High German (i.e. southern
> German) pronounced in a northern way, saying "König" (king) as "könich"
> instead of "könik" for example.
> But on the other hand, I am pretty sure that many people in Hannover would
> say "Taach" for "Tag" (day) and not "Taak" as would be "standard". (In
> Ruhr-German we say "Tach" with a short a just like in Low Saxon "dag".)
>
> Now two anecdotes about people who were convinced that they spoke High
> German without the slightest regional accent.
> 1. Once I met a girl from Hamburg in America. She indeed spoke very much
> standard
>    High German but still I could tell immediately that she was from
> Hamburg or somewhere
>    in the vicinity because of her spreading nasalization and her
> intonation which
>   sounds really strange to someone from the Ruhrgebiet, almost a little
> bit like the
>   "Scandinavian sing-song".
>
> 2. My mother used to be a German teacher with a love for prescriptive
> grammar.
>    She used to speak standard High German and was also convinced that she
>    didn't have any local accent.
>    But still e.g. she of course always said "Kirche" (church) as "kiäche"
>    instead of "küeche" as they
>    do in other parts of Germany. (But this is a feature which is not
> really
>    consciously known to  many people and thus is not a real Shiboleth.)
>
> Last but not least, even for most news readers on television you can at
> least tell whether they are from Southern or Nothern Germany and sometimes
> whether they are from the east or
> the west.
>
> Best greetings!
>
> Jan Strunk
> strunk at linguistics.rub.de

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hello, Yasuji!

Good to hear from you.

"High German" (i.e., Standard German) is, very simply put, a mixture of 
German dialects with some Low Saxon influences.  These influences are mostly 
indirect one, having reached the language via North German dialects that 
come with Low Saxon substrates or influences.

I am not surprised those people had no idea about Low Saxon ("Platt"). 
Assumedly, they were younger people from large cities.  I further assume 
that they were of an age group that was raised by the post-war generation 
or, if they were older, by people that grew up during World War II.  The 
post-war era until about 1980 is by many considered the "dark age" for Low 
Saxon in Germany, particularly in larger cities.  Use of the language was 
discouraged at least indirectly, at least by neglect and exclusion.  The 
general message was that it was not good for young people, that it would 
hamper their education and professional success, that dealing with it as a 
hobby was all right but was really a waste of time.  I know quite a lot of 
North German city folks whose parents were native Low Saxon speakers but did 
not pass on the language to them, mostly for that reason.  Sadly, this 
includes people who really loved the language.  They had come to be resigned 
to the prospect of the language dying with them, and most of them did not 
think it was right to "harm" their children with it and make them social 
oddballs.

Yesterday I watched a snippet of the Korean evening news, a report about 
Korean-Japanese young people spending a few weeks in Korea to reenforce 
their cultural roots.  When they were interviewed they all spoke Japanese. 
They had little or no Korean.  Again, Korean language, giving away your 
ethnicity, can be a stigma in Japan in that it may provoke discrimination, 
and many Korean-Japanese parents are led to believe that not teaching Korean 
(at least not really) would give their children a brighter future.

Isn't it similar also in the case of young people of Ainu ancestry, 
especially those that live in cities like Aomori, Morioka, Akita, Sendai, 
Monbetsu, Enbetsu, Nakagawa, Wakanai or Sopporo, who don't know the Ainu 
language and know hardly anything about their ancestral culture even though 
their parents or grandparents are linguistically and culturally Ainu by 
upbringing?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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