LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.02 (06) [B/E]
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Tue Aug 2 21:38:08 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 02.AUG.2005 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.31 (04) [E]
Over et Elzassis: enkele joare gelejje woareme mè 't school nor Stroatsbörg
gegoan, veur e weeksken oefzoeë, iën van ongs oepdrachte was draai woorde te
zuuken in et Elzassis dialect wörvan da ge kost zieng da ze van Döts'
origine woare. Ik kan 'k ik m'n aaige nog goed erinnere oe moelak da da
was... Öteindelak emmeme d'r wel e stuk oef draai gevonne mör dad ee wel wa
taaid gekost... Iëst vroegem' et on zoe e mæsken in e muzeüm wör da-m' oek
zjust muste zèn, mor die kende gin enkel plat woord, die was nog vraai joeng
mor zelfs dan erinner 'k m'n aaige nog da waai dad oareg vonne, oemda (bè
ongs) zelfs et KLENSTE kingd dad in et AN is groeëtgebrocht, wel tiengtalle
platte woorde kent n'rmoal en waai in dieën taaid nog dochte da dad overal
dan wel zoe zaa zèn... Mor oep den duur woare d'r wel twië mengskes dad ongs
die woorde koste geve, noa laank zuuke, 'k peis da-g-et iet was in den oard
van "Vaain" v'r waain (Fraans vin, Döts wein), "Gässe" en nog iet. Die gässe
betiëkende stroat mor 'k zèn ni zeker oefda da et Oeëg-Döts oef et Elzassis
was... M'schieng kloenk et woord wel ietskes aanders.
Veur de rest em 'k noeët iet g'oeërd van dees dialect.
Diederik Masure
------------
From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.02 (03) [E]
Hoi Lowlanders!
There were some questions about the situation in Alsace/France. As an
Austrian who's originally from Vorarlberg I can contribute a little to it.
In the last years I was was about four times in Alsace. The situation is not
that bad as always reported. I could hear even young people talking Alsatian
to each other, though they are far apart from what is the situation in
Northern Italy/South Tyrol or Luxembourg, both strongly bi/trilingual.
Ron gave already some very good overviews about Alemannic. Classification is
mainly attached by how the "k" is spoken (e.g. chind - kind, chein - kein)
and the new-high-german dipthongisation e.g. from u to au (Hus - Haus), i to
ei (rich - reich, min - mein) ue (ü) to eu (duetsch or düütsch - deutsch, I
avoid the German "Umlaute", because they alway make problems in
transmission). In Alsace there is also a Franconian influence (mainly w
instead of b and g in the middle of words as mag - maw, leben - lewe[n]).
Suebian in Baden/Wuerttemberg and West-Bavaria did the dipthongisation
half-way, so the other Alemannic speaking don't consider it as real
Alemmanic, hence the name Alemannic-Swabian for the hole group.
High- and Highest-Alemannic speak ch, low-Alemannic is k. Today the ch is
only spoken in Switzerland and Sundgau/Alsace. In former times it was
certainly also spoken in some parts of Vorarlberg and Tyrol in Austria and
the German side of the triangle Germany/France/Switzerland. Maybe its also
spoken in some parts of Liechtenstein, but actually Liechtenstein and
Vorarlberg have identic dialects.
In Germany Alemannic dialects tend to merge with Swabian. Swabian has a
similar possition as Missingsch in LG/LS.
Alsatian seems to me the most archaic version, but this is maybe only
because of its Franconian features and French influence in lexical terms.
Alsatian north of Sundgau is even for Swiss German only understandable with
some difficulties.
Uf Wiederluege from Austria
Karl-Heinz
----------
From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.02 (03) [E]
> From: waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.31 (03) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
> I have very often heard also in Japan that the "Standard German" is spoken
> in the area of Hannover. Hannover belongs to the "Niederdeutsch" spoken
> area, doesn't it?
> I would like to know why such a story is made and spreaded. I think that
> Hannover area should belong to the "Low Saxon" spoken area. About two
> years
> ago I had a chance to speak with a "Studentin" from Hannover, and she told
> me that she could not speak "Plattdeutsch". She speaks "Hochdeutsch" only,
> and asked me why I am interested in "Plattdeutsch". Also I was once asked
> by a student from Kiel how to say "Wiedersehen" in Plattdeutsch. It seems
> maybe curious.
>
> Hartlich ut Japan,
> Yasuji Waki
>
>> From: Jan Strunk <strunkjan at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.28 (07) [E]
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> just some stories about speaking "pure" High German. I frankly can't
>> stand
>> hearing "people in Hannover speak the purest High German" anymore....
>> What's purest High German anyway. They happen to pronounce most of the
>> High German words pretty closely to the "Hochlautung" or "Bühnenlautung"
>> just because this construct was based on High German (i.e. southern
>> German) pronounced in a northern way, saying "König" (king) as "könich"
>> instead of "könik" for example.
>> But on the other hand, I am pretty sure that many people in Hannover
>> would
>> say "Taach" for "Tag" (day) and not "Taak" as would be "standard". (In
>> Ruhr-German we say "Tach" with a short a just like in Low Saxon "dag".)
>>
>> Now two anecdotes about people who were convinced that they spoke High
>> German without the slightest regional accent.
>> 1. Once I met a girl from Hamburg in America. She indeed spoke very much
>> standard
>> High German but still I could tell immediately that she was from
>> Hamburg or somewhere
>> in the vicinity because of her spreading nasalization and her
>> intonation which
>> sounds really strange to someone from the Ruhrgebiet, almost a little
>> bit like the
>> "Scandinavian sing-song".
>>
>> 2. My mother used to be a German teacher with a love for prescriptive
>> grammar.
>> She used to speak standard High German and was also convinced that she
>> didn't have any local accent.
>> But still e.g. she of course always said "Kirche" (church) as "kiäche"
>> instead of "küeche" as they
>> do in other parts of Germany. (But this is a feature which is not
>> really
>> consciously known to many people and thus is not a real Shiboleth.)
>>
>> Last but not least, even for most news readers on television you can at
>> least tell whether they are from Southern or Nothern Germany and
>> sometimes
>> whether they are from the east or
>> the west.
>>
>> Best greetings!
>>
>> Jan Strunk
>> strunk at linguistics.rub.de
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Hello, Yasuji!
>
> Good to hear from you.
>
> "High German" (i.e., Standard German) is, very simply put, a mixture of
> German dialects with some Low Saxon influences. These influences are
> mostly indirect one, having reached the language via North German dialects
> that come with Low Saxon substrates or influences.
>
> I am not surprised those people had no idea about Low Saxon ("Platt").
> Assumedly, they were younger people from large cities. I further assume
> that they were of an age group that was raised by the post-war generation
> or, if they were older, by people that grew up during World War II. The
> post-war era until about 1980 is by many considered the "dark age" for Low
> Saxon in Germany, particularly in larger cities. Use of the language was
> discouraged at least indirectly, at least by neglect and exclusion. The
> general message was that it was not good for young people, that it would
> hamper their education and professional success, that dealing with it as a
> hobby was all right but was really a waste of time. I know quite a lot of
> North German city folks whose parents were native Low Saxon speakers but
> did not pass on the language to them, mostly for that reason. Sadly, this
> includes people who really loved the language. They had come to be
> resigned to the prospect of the language dying with them, and most of them
> did not think it was right to "harm" their children with it and make them
> social oddballs.
>
> Yesterday I watched a snippet of the Korean evening news, a report about
> Korean-Japanese young people spending a few weeks in Korea to reenforce
> their cultural roots. When they were interviewed they all spoke Japanese.
> They had little or no Korean. Again, Korean language, giving away your
> ethnicity, can be a stigma in Japan in that it may provoke discrimination,
> and many Korean-Japanese parents are led to believe that not teaching
> Korean (at least not really) would give their children a brighter future.
>
> Isn't it similar also in the case of young people of Ainu ancestry,
> especially those that live in cities like Aomori, Morioka, Akita, Sendai,
> Monbetsu, Enbetsu, Nakagawa, Wakanai or Sopporo, who don't know the Ainu
> language and know hardly anything about their ancestral culture even
> though their parents or grandparents are linguistically and culturally
> Ainu by upbringing?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: Lnaguage varieties
Hallo Reinhard,
Thank you very much for your posting. I have a friend in Elmshorn. She write
me often in Platt (she is in her forties.) She told that she had bought a
text book of Platt for beginners for her sons, but they would not learn this
language. When I visited her home, her sons spoke only Standard German with
their parents. She also told that she spoke Platt often when she visited
market.
When I was young, I visited often a Korean family on business and
personally. And I became friends with the children. They were "niseis" of
Korean parents in Japan. The two elder children could spoke Korean, but two
younger sons could not. This family used a Japanese family name in their
daily life and went to Japanese schools.
I think there are two groups of Koreans in Japan. The Koreans who keep the
citizenship of North Korea let their children go to the schools established
by their group. There Korean is taught. But, many of Koreans belong to the
South Korea let their children go to Japanese schools. So, these children
have not any Korean lessons.
Regarding Ainu, I am not sure if pure Ainu people still exist even in
Hokkaido., and how many people speak the language of Ainu as their mother
tongue.
In case of Japanese dialekt,as you know there are many dialekts in Japanese,
too. But most of them are almost extincted among younger generations. It is
very difficult for them to communicate with their greatgrandparents.
At the end of this posting, Ron san "thank you again".
Hartlich,
Yasuji
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Moin, Yasuji-san!
OK, so my analogies didn't really work.
As for those sons refusing to learn the language ... did that happen when
they were teenagers or adults? If so, they were probably in the
"socialization/mating phase" of life when they are more interested in
fitting in with their peers than with their parents, and the bad image of
the language still lingers on in many circles. She should have started
speaking it with them from the beginning. Suddenly starting when they were
older was doomed to failure. Aside from the said "socialization/mating
phase" there is the related rebelliousness phase, a mechanism preparing for
"leaving the nest." That's the age when much of what parents suggest is
rejected. This even happens often when their parents used their language
with them from the beginning. Someone I know in France speaks Japanese, her
native language, with her daughters. One of the girls rejected it pretty
much from the beginning, while the other one does speak it. But even the
one that speaks it now stopped doing so. She is in her late teens and has
decided that all that is "stupid." It is more important to her that she be
a "real" French woman like her friends. When she was asked if she wants to
spend her year of foreign studies in Japan or the USA, she didn't hesitate
to choose the USA. It may well be that she will want to return to her
maternal Japanese roots when she gets older and more mature.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: jean duvivier <duvassoc at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.01 (06) [E]
Vielen Dank Ron
Jean
> From: jean duvivier <duvassoc at comcast.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.31 (04) [E]
>
> Hello Ron,
>
> Interesting comments about Alsatian. My mother's grandparents emigrated
> from
> Alsace to Belgium around 1871, when Alsace and Lorraine were conquered by
> Prussia. Their name was Dietz, which was apparently frenchified to Dits.We
> don't know where they came from in Alsace. I have been told by an Alsatian
> friend that there are a number of Dietz in the area around
> Colmar-Mulhouse,
> but have no way of verifying the accuracy of that fact.
> The Alsatians that I have known were almost without exception resentful
> towards Germany and Germans because of the way they were treated and also
> conscripted from 1871 to 1918 and during WW2.
> I have never learned that dialect because I never lived in Alsace and as
> far
> as I know, most Alsatians prefer to speak French with visitors. In French
> schools, German or English are the preferred second (foreign) languages
> which are taught, although these days,I understand that Spanish is
> catching
> up.
>
> Jean Duvivier
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Salü, Jean, un vielmols merci !
>
> It's great hearing from you again for a change.
>
> Thanks for adding information about Alsatian (_Elsässerditsch_) and its
> speakers. Here's another tangental excursion.
>
> Alsatian is devided into three groups of dialects, from north to south:
>
> Lower Alsatian
> main cities: Strasbourg/Straßburg/Strossburi, Haguenau/Hagenau,
> Wissembourg/
> Weißenburg, Saverne/Zabern
> Central Alsatian (adj. to Baden-Wuertember, Germany):
> main cities: Colmar, Sélestat /Schlettstadt, Ribeauvillé/Rappoltsweiler
> Upper Alsatian:
> Main cities: Mulhouse/Mülhausen, Guebwiller/Gebweiler, Altkirch,
> Saint-Louis/Sankt Ludwig
>
> Alsatian language course: http://www.verdammi.org/cours.html
>
> TV in Alsatian onliene:
> http://videojts.france3.fr/regions/popup.php?id=l67a_locale&portail=regionalsace&m_OAS=regions.france3.fr/alsace/videojt/1920local/rundum&m_mmtrie=france3_regions_alsace_videojt_1920local_rundum
>
>> Their name was Dietz, which was apparently frenchified to Dits.
>
> I wonder if this is related to the Lowlandic _Diets_ as a cover term for
> Lowlands German language varieties, or "German," or if it is derived from
> a first name akin to Diederik. I rather suspect the former.
>
> Àdje bisàmme, un viel Gliek !
> Reinhard/Ron
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