LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.07 (03) [D/E]

Sun Aug 7 19:41:40 UTC 2005

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L O W L A N D S - L * 07.AUG.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.05 (05) [D/E]

Hallo Felix,

Fijn dat je ons in je geluk wilde laten delen.

Misschien wil jij -en anderen- eens hun licht laten schijnen over 'tove'?

Het gegeven woordenlijstje is interessant, en de woorden zijn toch wel thuis 
te brengen.

Maar:  bij > tove Liebe liefde love< wordt het echt interessant. 'tove'? Met 
welke middeleeuwse taal is dat in verband te brengen?
{En ik ga er vanuit dat 'tove' geen schrijffout is.}
Is hier iets zinnigs over te zeggen?

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

***
> From: Felix Hülsey <felix.huelsey at gmx.de>
> Subject: Lowlands-L: Language varieties
>
> Beste Laaglanders,
>
> terwijl ik heel iets anders zocht, vond ik bij
> Wikipedia een kort
> artikel over een West-Germaanse taalvorm genaamd
> "Wymysojer" die
> blijkbaar tot na WO II gesproken werd in het Poolse
> stadje Wilamowice.
> Hier komt het artikel van Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wymysojer
>
> "Wymysojer (Wilamowicean) is a West Germanic
> language spoken in the
> small town of Wilamowice (Wymysau in Wymysojer), on
> the border between
> Silesia and Little Poland. In origin, Wymysojer
> appears to derive from
> 12th century Middle German strongly influenced by
> Low Saxon, Dutch,
> Frisian, Polish and Old English.
>
> The inhabitants of Wilamowice are thought to be
> descendants of Dutch,
> German and Scottish settlers who arrived in Poland
> in the 13th century.
> replaced by Polish, especially amongst the younger
> generations. At
> present, there are about 100 native users of
> Wymysojer, the majority of
> them elderly people; Wymysojer is therefore an
> endangered language.
[...]
> Hier volgt een woordenlijst (Wymysojer, Duits,
> Nederlands, Engels):
[...]
> tove Liebe liefde love

> Dit zijn toch de mooiste momenten voor een
> taalfanaat - zomaar een
> nieuwe taal ontdekken waar je voorheen helemaal
> niets van afwist en die
> je meteen min of meer begrijpt omdat hij nauw
> verwant is aan de talen
> die je zelf spreekt!
>
>
> Groeten uit Keulen
> Felix Hülsey

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.05 (05) [D/E]

Dear Sandy,

you wrote:
> Why's that, then?

To write a language without any clearly ruled grammar is hard, and I don't 
like this very much.
The other handicap rises from the fact that very small differences in 
stressing any word, any part of a word makes big differences for the sense 
of the whole thing, sometimes. It's an effect one just can learn when 
speaking, when using a language very often- a truism, of course, and valid 
for a lot of languages, as I presume.

And- in addition- specially in LS I'm often aware of the lack of a special 
word for any special matter. You are forced to circumwrite the whole thing, 
a long and boring procedure, which you don't feel when you're speaking.

I could imagine this to be a handicap for any sign language, too, though I 
don't know enough about it.

But- of course a language also HAS to be written down in modern times- I 
don't want to deny this. Though- a handing down of any minority language in 
the spoken way I guess to be indispensable to keep it alive in all its 
singularities and, maybe, singularity.

Kindly regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.06 (11) [D/E/LS]

Dear Ron,

you wrote:

> The AS spelling of that dialect and of other Lower Elbe and coastal
> dialects
> will have to be reconsidered.
And it IS better than all this combining of /ii/ie/eei//eu etc.. Easier to
write, easier to read as soon as you had become a little familiar with it.
Yes!
(Sandy, this could be a kind of addition to my other posting of today [ref.
to "Language varieties" 2005.08.05(05)].)

> For some reason (which may well be seen as
> deterioration), the old opposites /oo/ vs /ou/ and /ee/ vs /ei/ no longer
> apply, have leveled off to the dipthongs /ou/ and /ei/ respectively.
> However, distinction between /öö/ and /öü/ remains, probably because in
> these dialects /öü/ has come to be pronounced [o%I] (pretty buch as in
> "boy"
> drawn out a bit) thus distancing it from /öö/.  Note the same thing
> applying
> in the dialects of Jonny Meibohm and Clara Kramer-Freudenthal (both of
> whom
> have contributed sound recordings to go with their LS translations).  This
> and other features lead me to think that the Lower Elbe and coastal
> dialects
> are a very distinct group within the North Saxon dialect range.

I'd like to hear some more about your thoughts, Ron, with many examples, but
please NOT in any kyrillian or far-eastern letters ;-)!

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Theo (boven):

> Maar:  bij > tove Liebe liefde love< wordt het echt interessant. 'tove'? 
> Met welke
> middeleeuwse taal is dat in verband te brengen?
> {En ik ga er vanuit dat 'tove' geen schrijffout is.}
> Is hier iets zinnigs over te zeggen?

In het begin had ik de zelfde reactie. Maar ik begin het te heroverwegen ... 
Kijk eens naar het begin en het einde van het wiegelied:

> "Śtöf duy buwła fest!
....
> Śtöf duy Jasiu fest!

Het zou theoretisch *"ślöf" (slaap) moeten zijn.  Er schijnt in deze 
taalvariatie een ongewone verhouding tussen /l/ en /t/ te bestaan. 
Misschien "ongewoon", maar niet uniek.  Deze twee medeklinkers word met 
achting naar de tongtop gelijk uitgesproken.  (Bijvoorbeeld is origineel 
/-t/ aan het einde van Chinese leenwoorden in het Koreaans /-l/ geworden.) 
In elk geval hebben wij een veel groter taalcorpus nodig.

Jonny (above):

> I'd like to hear some more about your thoughts, Ron, with many examples, 
> but
> please NOT in any kyrillian or far-eastern letters ;-)!

Well, Jonny, I'm afraid I'll have to make you do a bit of homework: 
familiarize yourself with the IPA script (International Phonetic Alphabet) 
and with its email version SAMPA:

http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationales_Phonetisches_Alphabet
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAMPA
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet

The seemingly strange characters I and others use in connection with sounds 
are SAMPA.  You can't really have an easy and useful discussion without at 
least basic knowledge of such notation, even if there are bits of help such 
as "like "u" in "but"".

These notations may look daunting but are actually quite simple.

By the way, I follow the American way by representing phonemics within 
slashes (/  /) and phonetics within brackets ([ ]).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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