LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.10 (02) [E]

Wed Aug 10 14:38:17 UTC 2005

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 10.AUG.2005 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: David Barrow <davidab at telefonica.net.pe>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.08.08 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Thanks for the above, Denis, Diederik and Jonny.
>
> Denis and Diederik, that is very interesting information, especially
> the intermediate stage _ngd_ [Nt] ([Nd]?) in Antwerp.  I wonder what
> motivated this shift, which is a case of dissimilation.
>
> Explanation: The phonemes /n/, /d/, /t/, /z/ and /s/ are related in
> tongue position as dento-alveolars, and _ng_ /N/, /g/, /k/, /G/ and
> /x/ are related as velars.  Assimilation is more natural or
> predictable in phonology; e.g., many English speakers pronounce
> "length" as "lenth," assimilating the _ng_ [N] to the _th_ [T].
> Antwerp Brabantish and similar varieties do the opposite: the
> *dis*similate /n/ before (related) /d/ and /s/, thus /kind/ [kInt] ->
> _kingd_ [kINt], /mens/ [mEns/ -> _mengs_ [mENs] 'human being', 'person'.
>
> Might there be another intermediate stage: nasalization /kind/ -> ki~d
> -> kingd, /mens/ -> me~s -> mengs?  This intermediate stage, if it is
> one, is represented in strongly nasalizing varieties such as Western
> Flemish and Afrikaans (_kind_ [k@~t], _mens_ [mE~s]).
>
> Diederik, I've got it hand it to you: you make an impressive
> phonologist, being unusually observant even in your own variety (which
> is hard for some people).  If you keep this up you'll leave us all in
> the dust.
>
> Jonny, and I have to hand it to you, too.  The rest of our Lowlanders
> is not aware, with one or two exception, myself included, how far you
> have actually come in educating yourself and allowing yourself to be
> educated.  I am pleased to see that you are open to Sandy's advice,
> sound advice, as far as I am concerned.
>
> At the end of the day it doesn't really matter which writing system
> (if any) comes out first, as long as it represents all phonemes of the
> language (which the watered-down _Wald-und-Wiesen_ version of the
> German-based system for Low Saxon does not do, and the continued use
> of this version is definitely detrimental to the language).  People
> may not embrace what folks like Holger, Ingmar and I do in writing Low
> Saxon, or what folks like Andy and Sandy do in writing Scots, but at
> least we are doing *something*.  The rest moans and groans about the
> way things are and also moans and groans about each and every
> suggestion and proposal to change things, to improve things.  The rest
> moans and groans about doom and gloom and also about younger people
> mispronouncing and misusing the language, yet also moans and groans
> about any attempt to change it.
>
> This is why I encourage you to go ahead and write your language
> variety to the best of your ability, not to let yourself be paralized
> by doubts and inhibitions.  It may not be perfect at first try, but it
> will never be perfect if you don't try at all.  Don't allow the
> moaners, groaners and naysayers to hold you back!  They'll never be
> happy, no matter what you do. So forget about them!  Instead I ally
> myself with people and organziations that are open-minded enough not
> to dismiss new and experimental things and are genuinely interested in
> the language as a living organism, not as a museum exhibit.  One such
> organization is the Freudenthal-Gesellschaft
> (http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/freudenthal2.htm), which
> tolerates orthographic diversity, is interested in all sorts of
> literature (including "experimental" literature) and was also the
> first to extend itself across the border to the Netherlands and the
> rest of the world.  I'm quite happy to pay the membership fee (even
> though they collaborated with me a long time prior to me joining).  As
> far as I can tell, there are similar organizations in the case of
> Scots, the Scots Language Society and its periodical _Lallans_
> (http://www.lallans.co.uk/) being one example.
>
>> Ron, being aware of this problem, created AS- there it would become
>> perhaps
>> 'leygh' and would be much closer to the real sound than written the
>> 'ordinary'
>> way. And- it is much easier to write, as I mentioned earlier,
>> specially on a
>> German based keyboard.
>> But I don't see any greater acceptance for AS at the moment;
>> obviously it looks
>> too strangely for the maiority.
>>
>> I just tried to write it in SAMPA (for German)- but I couldn't find
>> any suitable
>> symbols for this "triphtong".
>
>
> In dialects that preserve the _Schleppton_ "drawl tone":
> [lE%IG']
>
> ([%] is a single dot in IPA, indicating extra length, not full but
> half.  So the [E] is somewhat lengthened in the diphthong.  The [G]
> represents a gamma in IPA, a fricative (_Reibelaut_) version of /g/,
> which is a voiced version of _ch_ as in _acht_.  ['] adds
> palatalization, so [G'] is the voiced equivalent of voiceless _ch_ in
> _ich_ [C].)
>
> Here's my suggestion:
>
> (1) Visit and use the IPA site: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html
>
> (2) Download its handbook and order the accompanying audio cassette:
>      http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/sounds.html
>
> (3) Use the SAMPA pages to learn which symbols represent the IPA symbols
>      you learn and find relevant:
>      http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
>      http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm
>
> And take it from there.  It isn't as difficult as it looks.
>
> Best wishes,
> Reinhard/Ron

Two IPA sites with sound:

http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/

http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html

IPA to SAMPA converter

http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/ipa/xsamchart.png

% = secondary stress not half length, half length is  .\  In IPA this
would  be the top half  of the length  marker.  a dot . means syllable
break in both IPA and SAMPA

You can also express palatisation like this: _j eg palatised /t/ = [t_j]
(phone) /t_j/ (phoneme)

David

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
====================================================================== 