LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.17 (08) [E/LS]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2005.08.17 (06) [E/LS]

Hi Jonny,
> Dag, Reinhard un Sabine,
>
> Sabine:
> > As I wrote in my introduction message to the listowner I am working on a
> > glossary with Plattdüütsch terminology that has been donated to
> > Wiktionary be Werner Eichelberg.
>
> Dat is reell allergröttsten Schiet!!! Loot de Fingern dorvan. Fangt blouts
> ne sou an in Wiktionary- denn hevvt Jii 't gliek inne Grütt!!
Thanks for supporting my position. We have had a big discussion in
nds.wiktionary.org. Sabine pressed very hard to include this data there and
when the resistance was too hard on nds.wiktionary.org she uploaded the data
into it.wiktionary.org. And (what makes me really angry) is that she made it
clear in the mail to this list, that all that crap will definitely be
uploaded into an upcoming multilanguage version of the wiktionary. We will
certainly have the same discussion there again. But we from
nds.wiktionary.org will not let her get away with this.

She accused me of being Sass-only. But this is not the case. In
nds.wiktionary.org there will be space for all spellings, as long as they 
can
be affirmed somehow as following some standard. The problem with the list
(coming from http://stade-buxtehude.de/platt/deutschplatt.htm) is that it
contains lots of entries that are highly dubious. Some entries are just 
plain
wrong. Some others I have not been able to veryfy from my dictionaries (and 
I
have several!). Some might be correct but are certainly not the usual word. 
I
think that the usual word should come first. We are in the process of 
tidying
this up before doing any further imports into nds.wiktionary.org.

There is certainly room in the wiktionary for lots of spellings as long as
they are flagged properly. The problem with the data that Sabine now has is
that the data does not conform to any standards of orthography. And we have
been telling her for almost a month by now that this is not the way to do 
it.

We would however not mind the data if it conformed to some standard and if 
she
can name the standard (but so far she can't...) When I google for the 
entries
of that list I freqently only find the list of stade-buxtehude and mirrors 
of
that list. That is close to circular reasoning. She just claims that it is a
valid spelling, simply because she found it on the internet.

And Johnny, it is really uplifting my heart that you (who from what I heard
has criticized a lot of what we have been doing on the plattdüütsch
wikipedia) now say that this list is "allergröötste Schiet".

> Reinhard!!! Du hesst dennen Bloydsinn ne ennig doyrleest- is tohoup
> greysigen Kroom. Mit dennen Keyrl hevv ick mi all vöör Joor'n inne Plünnen
> haart.
> Ne- door hoyrt miin Toleranz opp, dat kann 'ck Di vertell'n.
> Hey kann heyl keyn Nedderdüütsch; de hett man jichenswo Woyr affschreyven,
> ut anner Woyrboykers, dycht mi.
Right.
He says that German "abschreiben" is LS: "abschreim".
He says that German "Geschäft" is LS "Geschäff"
He says that German "Schallplatten" is LS "Grammofonplatten". This is
"gräsig".

> Kanst an rüm-warkeln, er up schik bringen un den as 'n vunnement bruken.
Right. This proposal has been on the table for quite some time and it is
underway. I have already cleaned up some of the entries that have already
been imported. And now I am the bad guy who is "Sass-only". And Sabine has
already announced that the data (as it were before) is about to remain as 
is.
I just can't believe it.

Kind regards,

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Heiko, Jonny, Sabine,

I'm sure there's a compromise somewhere.

Even if we leave the issue of orthography aside, Heiko is quite right in 
saying that a number of the listed items (not all, I must stress) go beyond 
unconventional.  While _Geschäff_ might be listed as one of the variant 
spelling (and I *have* come across _Geschäff_, pl. _Geschäffen_, in some 
folks' dialects), an item such as _abschreim_ is totally and utterly wrong. 
I would let _afschriem_ pass as a variant form of _afschrieven_ ~ 
_afschrieben_, but _abschreim_ belongs to a different language: to a 
Missingsch dialect of German.  (Unfortunately, some people are unaware of 
the border between "Platt" and "Missingsch.")

When I browse through Sabine's list I definitely come across gross 
orthographic insufficiencies and inconsistencies *in any system*.  It was 
mostly that which I had in mind when I said that I did not consider the 
entire list "crap," that it could be used as a base, given a good 
working-over for orthographic consistency.  Far less frequent are clearly 
suspect or erroneous items (such as _afschreim_), and those that there are 
could be easily corrected or replaced.

All of this presumes that all parties agree that the list be edited -- and 
it is indeed this that I had presumed all along, not knowing the history of 
this affair.  It would be difficult or impossible for most people to endorse 
the list if it remained unedited.  My hope is that something can be worked 
out.

It's really important that we work *with* each other rather than *against* 
each other, that we crawl out of the battle trenches, sit down and talk on a 
give-and-take basis.  After all, we're all in the same boat and are looking 
out for the same shore.  I may not personally agree with this point or the 
other regarding WikiPlatt as it is now, but I would not want to be labeled 
an enemy of it, nor would I endorse labeling Heiko some kind of bogeyman.  I 
may wish there were a tad more open-mindedness and a tad less suspicion 
among them, but I nevertheless admire and applaud the team's enthusiasm and 
effort.  Their hearts are in the right spot, as far as I am concerned, and I 
consider trashing them and their work pretty darn unfair.  Sure, so I have 
my own minimum standards and am not willing to compromise on those. 
However, this does not mean that I poo-poo everything those guys do if they 
dismiss my misgivings.  I don't, and I hope that this level of respect is 
mutual.

Heiko:

> There is certainly room in the wiktionary for lots of spellings as long as
> they are flagged properly.

I feel very much encouraged by those words, Heiko -- and I don't even have 
in mind "weirdo" spelling, just phonemically consistent spelling at least as 
alternatives, such as:

(1) beden, bäden, biäden (to beg, to pray) [underlying: /beeden/]
(2) beden, bäiden, bejden, beiden, baiden (to offer) [underlying: /beiden/]

(1) Paal, Pool, Pol, Pål (pod) [underlying: /paal/]
(2) Pool, Pol, Poul, Paal, Paul (pole) [underlying: /poul/]

As I have told you in private correspondence, I would expect a reference 
work to represent a given language optimally, i.e., phonemically correct,, 
bearing in mind that an encyclopedia also caters to the learners of that 
language.

Hopefully, we'll all have a group hug in the end.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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