LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.13 (03) [E]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 13 December 2005 * Volume 03
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.13 (02) [E]

Heather wrote:
> Frequently a child will use its name instead as if referring to a 3rd
> person " Pick Janie up"  " Mummy tie Janie shoe"
>
> Isn't this indicative of the non-I state of awareness too?

No, this is indicative of parents who insist on exposing their children to
"baby talk" themselves - we've all heard them many times: "Not now, Mommy is
tired", or "What did Mommy just say?". They just reap what they sow.

My oldest had a brief period of two weeks or so when she had only just
started to talk and would call herself "mir" (me) instead of "ich" (I): "Mir
bamm aua" (I fell and it hurt - the "bamm" part being a somewhat cartoony
description) or "Mir ist tanzen" (I feel like dancing). I think she got this
from correct constructions such as "Mir ist kalt" (I feel cold). She started
to talk very suddenly at the age of 18 months, from one day to the next, and
tried to use what she thought were correct grammatical rules from day one. I
know she always observed me very closely even as a young infant, much more
so than the others, and she must have tried to analyse and understand my
speech patterns long before she decided she knew enough to try them out.

At the same time, she had a name for herself, "Mena" (meaning "Marleen"),
that she used in appropriate context. This was similar with my other two
daughters; they never heard those "Come to Mommy constructions", and
therefore were never fooled into believing that this is how people actually
talk. Babies are so much smarter than they ever get credit for!

Jonny:
> glad to see you back without lack...

Only briefly, though, my next, bigger surgery will take place some time
after Christmas.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Gabriele:

> Only briefly, though, my next, bigger surgery will take place some time
> after Christmas.

Good luck with that, Gabriele.  We'll be rooting for you (and I mean this in 
the American English sense, of course).

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.13 (02) [E]


  From Sandy Fleming:

  To get back to the idea of "grammar" though, and why some people insist
  that only certain forms as correct (as you say, teachers, editors, The
  Times readers :)

  If there was one important thing that seems to me to be missing from
  modern linguistics (meaning, at the amateur level I read at, I'd expect
  it to get at least a whole chapter in a standard textbook, whereas in
  fact I never seem to see it at all) is the idea of "motivation".

  For example, a publisher has a certain motivation in using Fowler-style
  English or similar - "it sells books".
  A writer has a motivation in using Fowler-style English - "the publisher
  won't take it otherwise".
  A teacher has a motivation in teaching Fowler-style English - "the
  children have to pass their exams".
  An examination has a motivation in insisting on Fowler-style English -
  "this is what they have to read and write when they leave school".

  Sandy Fleming
  http://scotstext.org/

  Sandy,
  I believe there is one over-riding reason for using "standard spelling" or 
"correct" forms in writing, and I alluded to it in my earlier 
tongue-in-cheek comment that you present your arguments in perfect 
grammatical English.  It has nothing to do with class, ethnicity or any 
prescriptive "rightness"; it is simply that the message gets through without 
distraction. If'n fokes roits loik thiz cuz tha's 'ow they tauks, you 
immediately spend some brainpower on the quaint, curious or possibly 
incomprehensible writing, not what's being said. There is a place for it 
(this list for one), but as I was taught on a report writing course once: 
"good writing is actually un-noticeable....the meaning goes in with a 
minimum of effort".

  Of course the standards will mutate and shift as they have for centuries, 
but that also should occur without notice, in the same way that speech 
changes.

  Another good reason is, if you work in Microsoft Word, you spend half your 
life clicking on "ignore" or "add" to get rid of all the red and green 
underlinings!

  Paul Finlow-Bates
----------

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.13 (02) [E]

From: Ian Pollock <ispollock at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.13 (02) [E]

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.12 (01) [E]
>
> Dear Gabriele,
>
> glad to see you back without lack, and thanks for preventing me from
> falling in love with our charming Sandy ;-)! It was the very last
> moment because I usually prefer this special type of rough and
> cross-grained ladies :-)) as you perhaps could know!
>
> Ian- when did you do your last look into the anniversary-sites
> ("Introductions");-)??

Oy...oops! Sorry, Sandy!
/me grins nervously

-Ian Pollock 

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