LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (09) [E]

Fri Dec 16 23:10:06 UTC 2005

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16 December 2005 * Volume 09
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From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.16 (04) [E]

Justin,
i've also been pretty interested in the "v" vs. "f"
pronunciation of "v" in Dutch.  I lived in the
Netherlands many many years ago, and honestly never
noticed it pronounced "v" at that time (I lived in den
Haag)  However, these days, as I download the NOS
Journaal every day, I've noticed that the newsreaders
DO tend to voice the "v".  I actually find it kind of
annoying (that's just a silly subjective reaction).
I wonder if there is any regional variation in
preference that some of the native speakers can point
out to us.
Thanks.
Stan

>
> From: Justin Renquist <justinrenquist at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.15 (02) [E]
>...
> Not to change the subject, but I do find it
> interesting the topic of v vs f
> since Dutch has similar issues with v's being
> pronounced unvoiced in certain
> situations. What I'd really like to figure out
> (being a non-native speaker
> of Dutch) is how to pronounce "v" correctly at the
> beginning of a word. For
> example "vrouw" - I think in careful ABN or "Hoog
> Nederlands," it would be
> preferable to have a voiced v (not too different
> from a voiced English v),
> but I think in everyday Dutch (and perhaps Flemish)
> speech, the voiced v
> sound is fading. When I was in Holland last year
> (mainly in Amsterdam) for a
> few weeks, I always heard "fijf" for 5 and never
> "vvvvijf". Pronunciation of
> IJ is whole other subject - I heard wildly different
> things - some very
> similar to what sounded almost like German "ei"
> combination (but slightly
> dipthonguized)!! Heb je fEIf Euro? I almost laughed
> when hearing this for
> some reason?
>
> My former wonderful Dutch teacher here in Seattle,
> Jacqueline, (hi
> Jacqueline!) speaks what I feel is beautiful "Hoog
> Hollands," and she does
> use voiced v's - but am I right in thinking that
> this can be related to
> level of education? The higher the education level
> and family upbringing,
> social standing (in addition to regional issues),
> the more voiced the
> initial v's in Dutch?I think I recall her explaining
> it this way to me. I
> haven't ever heard voiced v's in spoken Dutch when
> in Holland (but I think
> more so when I lived in Belgium actually) or when I
> listen to TV/radio
> Dutch.
...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hey, Stan!  What a nice surprise to see you reemerge from the shadows of the 
backdrop!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Rikus Kiers <kiersbv at tiscali.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.16 (04) [E]

Hoi Justin,

You were reacting on the V and the IJ in Dutch. Hoog Hollands does not sound
very dutch. we use or may be used to speak of ABN, which means algemeen
beschaafd nederlands.
In ABN the v is just in between the english v and the dutch f. In a country
like The Netherlands every region and or village has its own way of
articulating. So if you are listening in Amsterdam they usually pronounce
the v as an f and the ij as a german ei. But even in the different older
parts of Amsterdam they speak things in different ways. Years after I left
Drenthe I noticed that people from certain parts of Drenthe pronounce the v
and s much sharper than I can remember from the days my only language was
Drents and I still had to learn dutch.
There is a lot of different pronouncing p e of the a, o, e, and u,eu, z,s,
f, v in different local settings.
Haarlem used to be the city with standard ABN dutch . ABN was strongly
spread by the newsreporters from radio and later TV. If we listen and look
to the news on tv and radio nowadays you hardly believe there ever has been
ABN. The influence of the Randstad-big cities, especially Amsterdam is in
the media enormous.
One overwhelming change occurred with the verbs Kunnen en zullen. Officially
you should say : ik kan, jij kunt en ik zal, jij zult. hardly anybody says
or writes this nowadays. Almost always you hear: ik kan, jij kan and ik zal
, jij zal. It probably developed under the growing influence of the before
mentioned Randstad dialects.
Maybe somebody knows more about the origin of this phenomenon?

Met vriendelijke groet,
Rikus Kiers

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2005.12.16 (04) [E]

Hoi Justin

It's obvious that you were in Amsterdam, because it's true that Dutch
<v> is pronounced [f] there, and <ij> something like [a:] or [ai],
hence <vijf> = [faif] instead of Standard Dutch [v\Eif].
But also notice that Standard Dutch <v> is NOT the same as English <v>,
but something between [v] and [f], for which I use the phonotic symbol [v\]
English <v> is more like Dutch <w>.

Something else quite interesting is that, in Standard Dutch, we say
<vijf> 5 and <vijftien> 15 with initial [v\], but <vijftig> 50 with [f],
so *'fijftig' ["FEift at x]. The same goes for <zes> 6 and <zestien> 16,
and <zeven> 7 and <zeventien> 17, all with initial [z], but <zestig> 60
and <zeventig> 70 ith initial [s]! (*'sestig', *'seventig').
How on earth is that possible, it doesn't make any sense, does it?
Well, the next numerals will tell: <acht> 8, <achttien> 18, but
<TACHTIG> 80, with an initial t-.
Formerly, it was also tfijftig, tsestig, tseventig, (tachtig) and
tnegentig, but these t's were all dropped, except in <tachtig>, but
the consonant remained voiceless.
In some dialects, e.g. West Flemish "tnegentig" still survived.

Back to Amsterdam: I often recognize people from our capital by their
hypercorrectly voiced z's and v's in those words, wehenspeaking St Dutch:
they actually say ["v\Eift at x] and ["zEst at x] instead of ["fEift at x],["sEst at x]

Ingmar

Justin Renquist wrote:
>
Not to change the subject, but I do find it interesting the topic of v vs f
>since Dutch has similar issues with v's being pronounced unvoiced in
certain
>situations. What I'd really like to figure out (being a non-native speaker
>of Dutch) is how to pronounce "v" correctly at the beginning of a word.
For
>example "vrouw" - I think in careful ABN or "Hoog Nederlands," it would be
>preferable to have a voiced v (not too different from a voiced English v),
>but I think in everyday Dutch (and perhaps Flemish) speech, the voiced v
>sound is fading. When I was in Holland last year (mainly in Amsterdam)
for a
>few weeks, I always heard "fijf" for 5 and never "vvvvijf". Pronunciation
of
>IJ is whole other subject - I heard wildly different things - some very
>similar to what sounded almost like German "ei" combination (but slightly
>dipthonguized)!! Heb je fEIf Euro? I almost laughed when hearing this for
>some reason?
>
>My former wonderful Dutch teacher here in Seattle, Jacqueline, (hi
>Jacqueline!) speaks what I feel is beautiful "Hoog Hollands," and she does
>use voiced v's - but am I right in thinking that this can be related to
>level of education? The higher the education level and family upbringing,
>social standing (in addition to regional issues), the more voiced the
>initial v's in Dutch?I think I recall her explaining it this way to me. I
>haven't ever heard voiced v's in spoken Dutch when in Holland (but I think
>more so when I lived in Belgium actually) or when I listen to TV/radio
>Dutch.
>
>Good discussion! I love this list (despite being a lurker the vast
majority
>of the time, due to being more of an amateur/hack than many of the rest of
>you!)
>
>justin

----------

From: Isaac M. Davis <isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.12.16 (02) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
> Hmmm ...  That's interesting.  Is it a case of Nordic "overflow," or is it
> an areal feature that spread as far as the Saxon-speaking parts of the
> Netherlands due to inter-Saxon communication?  Either way there may be a
> Saxon transmission link.  Do our British and Irish friends know of
> "sucked-in" words like (agreeing) "yea" or "yeah" (much in the sense of
> "uh-huh") in their countries?

Well, I'm not British or Irish, but I have heard that from at least one 
Irish person. The one I'm sure of is a woman, but I heard what I thought was 
the same thing from one man as well (only met him once, thus the 
uncertainty, where I've met the woman numerous times).

Isaac M. Davis

-- 

Westron wynd, when wilt thou blow
The smalle rain down can rain
Christ yf my love were in my arms
And I yn my bed again 

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