LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.13 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2005 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Dutch Matters <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: etymology

Hello Ron and other Lowlanders:

O boy, did I ever get shot down on my “doos” proposal.

Ron, Arthur, James and Heather: Yes it is true, in Dutch the word doos is
usually used for something made from cardboard but it could be made of
metal, as long as it is not long and round, then it would be “de bus.” If it
is flat and round and made of metal, it would be “de trommel” To make it
more difficult, a flat square metal container would  also be called “de
trommel”.

Peter, re your inquiry about the word “cadeau” in Dutch: The use of French
words in Dutch is mainly due to the fact that towards the end of the 16th
century the merchant class had gotten so rich that they thought of
themselves as better than everybody else. Since the Dutch are essentially
anti nobility, they came up with the idea that speaking French would give
them more “Culture” than Jan Janszoon and therefore you will find a sizable
French vocabulary in Dutch, which to this day (by now we have gotten over
ourselves ) is still pronounced with a French inflection.

By the way we do have a proper Germanic word for present. It is “het
Geschenk”.

The “loderen deuske” that you discovered is probably derived from a
bastardization of l’eau de la Reine (probably similar to eau de Cologne).

De groeten allemaal,

Jacqueline  [Bungenberg de Jong]

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hoi, Jacqueline!

> O boy, did I ever get shot down on my “doos” proposal.

Oh, come on now!  "Shot down" is a bit harsh, isn't it?  And I thought we
were letting you down easy.  At any rate, it is good to witness your good
humor about it all, not to mention the levels of your interest and
enthusiasm.  It seems Jacqueline and Lowlands-L are a good match.

Dutch container terminology sounds rather complex according to your
description.  Your _trommel_ sounds like German _Dose_ and the Germany's Low
Saxon _doos'_ (where G. _Trommel_ and LS _trommel_ ~ _trummel_ mean 'drum',
and English "drum" can denote a barrel made from metal).

Dutch _bus_ is obviously related to German _Büchse_ and Low Saxon _büks_ ~
_büs_, but I feel they can denote *any* smaller metal container, and I also
feel they are being pushed aside by _Dose_ and _doos'_, sound a bit
old-fashioned.

So what happened there in Dutch regarding the concept of giving presents?
Was it never developed or did it fall out of fashion natively?  Why is there
no native word?  Why French-derived _cadeau_ and German-derived _Geschenk_
for 'gift' or 'present'?  And what's the difference, if any?

In Low Saxon (Low German) of Germany, _geschenk_ ~ _geschink_ can also be
used, but I have a feeling it's a German loan, if for nothing else than the
presence of the rarely surviving prefix _ge-_ in native words (in North
Saxon at least).  You can say _present_ (<Präsent> [pre"zE.nt], also
_Präsent_ [pre"zEnt] in German), and that is French-derived, either directly
(during the Napoleonic occupation of Northern Germany) or via German, and it
still carries a formal, fancy and old-time ring to me.  To me, the ordinary
way of saying 'gift' or 'present', the equivalent of German _Geschenk_,
would be _gaav'_ (<Gaav> ~ <Gov'> [gQ:.v]), in some dialects still _gave_
(["gQ:ve] ~ ["gQ:be]), from _geven_ (["ge:v=m] ~ ["gE:v=m] ~ ["ge:b=m] ~
["gE:b=m]) 'to give'.  (The German cognate _Gabe_, on the other hand, sounds
more archaic to me than does _Geschenk_.)  Both LS _gaav'_ and German _Gabe_
may also be used in the sense of "talent," being a "gift," as in "gifted,"
"talented" (LS _begaavd_ [be"gQ:ft], German _begabt_).  However, the normal
way of saying "to give as a present" is LS _schenken_ ~ _schinken_ and G.
_schenken_.  Yet, in LS _geven_ will suffice and be preferred if the "as a
gift" is implied, is clear from context; e.g., _Düt bild geev' ik dy. (Kanst
beholden.)_ 'I'm giving you this picture. (You may keep it.)', or else __Düt
bild schink ik dy._.

Old Low Franconian has _skenken_, but I have a feeling that it was often
used in the sense of "to pour (drink)," ans in Middle Dutch and Middle
Flemish, like Modern German _einschenken_ and LS _in-schinken_.  I cannot
find an Old Low Franconian word for 'gift'.  (So perhaps it's true that the
very concept was unknown amongst those Lowlands Franconians ... ;-) ).  Old
Saxon has the noun _handgeva_ ("hand-gift") and the verbs _fargevan_ and
_gevôn_.  Old English has the nouns _gift_, _giefu_, _lâc_ and _læˆc_, and
the verbs _giefan_ (also just 'give') and _lâcian_. Old Frisian has the
verbs _jeva_ (also just 'give'), _rêka_ and _tôledza_ and the noun _mêde_.
Old Norse has _skenkja_ and _bœta_, but I can find no specific noun.  Gothic
has the verbs _fragiban_ and _skagkjan_ and the nouns _giba_ and _maiþms_.
Old (High) German has a plethora of words: the verbs _firgeban_, geban_,
gebôn_, _gigeban_, _gispentôn_, _spentôn_, and the nouns _gâba_, _geba_,
_gift_, _hantkunni_, _manaheit_, _mieta_, _oblegi_, _wîsôd_, _wîsôda_,
_wîsôdi_, _wîsôdo_, and _'given (as a present)' is _ungiarnêt_, a religious,
pious gift being _birtun_ ...

Note the difference: OS _gevan_ OG _geban_ (~ _gebôn_) 'to give' vs OS
_gevôn_ OG _gebôn_ 'to give as a present'!

Thanks for causing another avalanche, Jacqueline!

Reinhard/Ron

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