LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.14 (06) [E]

Tue Feb 15 00:26:04 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruth & Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.13 (08) [E]

Dear Dutch, Ron, Arthur, James & Heather,

Subject: etymology

> By the way we do have a proper Germanic word for present. It is “het
> Geschenk”.

Seconded, & what about 'gift'? Is it still used in AG Nederlands? I am told
that another, related word, one we use in Afrikaans for poison, 'gif', is so
named because it is also 'given'. Not a nice present, hey!

On another subject, 'doos' in Afrikaans just means 'box, case, etui, carton,
packet'; pretty loose, as definitions go. A dosie is a little one. In this
country one uses the word 'doos' with a certain firmness & resolution about
the context, because it has also become an euphemism for what the English of
another age euphemistically called 'the female article'. For this reason the
young people in ordinary conversation will prefer almost any other term for
a container. Also it lends a certain unwelcome weight to that college rank,
the 'dosent' (lecturer).

Yrs,
Mark

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From:  Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Etymology

Beste liëglanners,

And Ron in particular...;=)

Sure there is a native word in Dutch regarding the concept of giving
presents.

It's called a _z(j)enne_ in Brabantish and happens to be the nominalization
of the verb _zenden_ (D), _to send_ (E), and so on. Middle Dutch _sende_
still had the general meaning of "present", but gradually (?influence of
French culture?), the meaning "shifted" until it was primarily used in the
20th century to denote a portion of the butcher's meat that a farmer
gave/donated to the local priest after an animal was slaughtered. Apart from
this ritual, I'm not really sure whether there were many occasions in common
people's lives where presents were exchanged. Maybe marriage? Don't know...
Anyway, the noun was also known in Middle Saxon as _sende_, meaning "gift".

Am back now Ron...after roughly half a year of non-activity...will have some
reading to do in the near future...as of now, 1227 Lowlands messages remain
to be read...*s*...hope to catch up with y'all real soon.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From:  Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.11

> Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:17:13 -0800 (PST)
> From: Arthur Jones
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.02.11
> To: lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
> Mainei liobothon dalalandarjes!
>
> Heather, Ron and others have discussed origins of "Schachtel" , related to
> "Satchel"
> and in so doing, they have opened Pandora's little treasure box of
> lowlands Germanic history.
>
> As Heather pointed out, her research led her to Italian, hence "scatola"
> nowadays, and
> a German "Schattulle" that seldom appears in modern times, although it
> thrived in the Aufklaerung, or Enlightenment.
>
> She --or youall-- is on the button with the Gothic. In Wulfila's Gothic
> text of the first 4
> books of the New Testament (Codex Argenteus), "skatts" appears as a word
> for coin or money, even as specific currency (Denarii), e.g., "thri hund
> skatte".
>
> The Gothic diminutive was "Skattula", meaning little treasure container.
> Modern
> cognates include German "Schatz", and both Lowlands and Northern Germanic
> all
> use variants, mostly to denote tax and treasuries. In English, we still
> have "scot-free"
> from the Nieuw Amsterdam (recently changed to New York, I hear) expression
> for
> "tax-free".
>
> I am working on a Gothic (more Ostro- than Visi-) reconstruction of your
> wren tale
> as fast as I and my severely limited abilities can. I will sheepishly slip
> it under the
> door of some of you out there in Lowland, as well as some specific Gothic
> experts,
> in an attempt to do something amazingly thorough yet quite irrelevant. But
> fun.
>
> Aflet mei maineim skuldan af filuwauhrdeis
> (forgive me my sin of wordiness).
>
> Arthur

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc (above):

> And Ron in particular...;=)

Hey, Luc, ma main mayan!!!

> Am back now Ron...after roughly half a year of non-activity...will have
> some reading to do in the near future...as of now, 1227 Lowlands
> messages remain to be read...*s*...hope to catch up with y'all real soon.

Whatever you've been up to, I hope it was great.  At any rate, it's good to
see you back!  I missed you too (an no only wir lief moosie upby the puggie
nit laft).

> Anyway, the noun was also known in Middle Saxon as _sende_, meaning
> "gift".

Interesting!  Old Saxon has the verb _sendian_, but apparently only in the
sense of 'to send'.  Perhaps a _sende_ originally denotes a gift you sent
(by messenger), something like a tribute.  (Just guessing here.)

Arthur, if the above was the supposedly skipped contribution you were
referring to, I have to point out that it was in fact sent out, as you can
see if you visit the archive.  However, "better twice than sorry ..." or
someth'n' like that.

> The Gothic diminutive was "Skattula", meaning little treasure container.
> Modern
> cognates include German "Schatz", and both Lowlands and Northern Germanic
> all
> use variants, mostly to denote tax and treasuries. In English, we still
> have "scot-free"
> from the Nieuw Amsterdam (recently changed to New York, I hear) expression
> for
> "tax-free".

Very intereresting!  I had never come across Gothic _skattula_, only
_skatts_ 'coin' > 'money'.

This is interesting phonologically as well if _Schachtel_ indeed comes from
or is derived from a cognate of Gothic _skattula_.  The /x/ (<ch>) would
point to pre-aspiration (one of my pet phenomena, occurring sporadically in
a few languages, such as Icelandic, Turkic Yughur of China, and Scottish
Gaelic -- also in certain dialects of Saami apparently).  This is how it
works: aspiration (a "h" puff) of a following stop consonant (p, t, k) moves
("leftward") before the stop, thus resulting in what some call an "aspirated
vowel," in many cases where the stop is long (usually due to gemination),
here supposedly _skattula_ *[skat:_hula] -> *[skaht:ula].  If this is true
in the case of _Schachtel_, we'd have to assume that this was not a native
German word but a loan from a preaspirating language variety.  Even though
aspiration applied in at least some Old German dialects, I am not aware of a
tendency toward preaspiration, and, if there had been, I don't see why this
should be orthographically represented only in this particular word.

Old German has _skaz_ for 'treasure', derived from _skat_ which it is still
in Old Saxon and in others.  If Old German had a diminutive form of (_skat_
 >) _skaz_ (which it may have had) I would expect *_skazzilîn_ or just
*_skazzil_, and Modern German _Schätzel_, _Schätzlein_ (archaic
_Schätzelein_, dialectical _Schätzel_, etc.) are consistent with that.

Note the double letter _tt_ in Gothic _skatts_ 'coin' and in Old Norse
_skattr_ and Old Frisian _skett_ 'treasure'.  This is the sort of
phonological environment in which preaspiration likes to apply.  So, indeed,
as far as I know, you get this in Modern Icelandic: (ON _skattr_ 'treasure'
 >) _skattur_ 'tax' ["skaht:Ur], _skatta_ 'to tax' ["skaht:a].

Thus, preposterous though it may seem, I am suggesting that, if German
_Schachtel_ goes back to a Gothic loan I would venture the wild guess that
either that dialect of Gothic or whatever intermediary donor language
variety to have had preaspiration, which in Old German would then have been
reanalized as *_skahtula_, thus predictably _Schachtel_ in Modern German.

There!  Chew on that for a while!  Or shoot it down ... whichever may apply.
;-)

> Aflet mei maineim skuldan af filuwauhrdeis

Jah mei mainem samaleiko.

Reinhard/Ron

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