LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.01.29 (03) [E/L/LS]
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Sat Jan 29 21:01:18 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JAN.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties
Hi All
Mark asked about differences between East and West:
"Out of curiosity about how political divisions can affect language, is
there any residual effect that being divided politically for roughly 40
years has or had on the language(s) spoken in the West and/or East Germany?
>From what Helga said it seems that the Low Saxon language may have fared
better, i.e., be held in higher regard, in what used to be East Germany. Is
that a fair inference I can make?"
I've been living in Berlin now for 4 years, and it does tend to be an
indicator of where the person's from by their use of dialect. If someone
speaks fairly 'High German' then it's no real indicator, as they could be
from the East or West, but I've only heard a really heavy Berlin dialect
from former East Germans, although milder forms can also be heard in the
West.
You hear 'icke' a lot more in the East than in the West.
One sign with dialect speakers as to if they're 'Ossis' or 'Wessis' is their
use of 'jetzt' or 'jetze'
(now), the latter being the Eastern form. Whether people say 'der Stollen' -
West or East - or 'die Stolle' - only East - is another (heard an argument
between an East Berliner and someone from Minden about this one). There's
also various words which are more common amongst Easterners. 'Kelle' (ladle)
for a tabletennis bat is considered slang in the West but is the normal word
in the East.
Dialect is to some extent frowned upon, I know people who avoid using Berlin
dialect even though their families use it readily - which is when I say
'icke' and 'jut' to annoy them. But saying this I do know a number of
students who regularly use it, or at least use the local dialect for comic
effect.
I think the attitude in the East towards dialects was a lot more sympathetic
than that in the West, partly because they used Eastern dialects to show
that they were different from the Westerners, and so to some extent they
were encouraged. Things have changed in the past 15 years, mainly among the
upwardly mobile Easterners, although you do still more regularly hear
dialect in the East.
Anyway, hope this helps
Gary
----------
From: Franz Firla <f.firla at web.de>
Subject: Bokelts
Leewe Lüüt,
ick leas all ömmer watt van Winterswijk un Achterhoek, äwwer charnicks van
Bocholt op där düttsche Sidden. Do wäd Bokelts chekallt, un et chiff do en
werklich chudde Plattkaller un Schriiwer, dän aulen Egon Reiche. Ick will öm
chään frooge, of he dän "Zaunkönig" öwwersette deat.
Boll ös all wier Pannekoken-Tied , un derweege häpp ick en Chedeech van Egon
Reiche dobe-i. Bekiikent dat ees!
Bös doher un chutt choon
dä mölmsche Franz
Egon Reiche
Deftig Äten
Denn eenen ätt geern italiens:
Lassagne, Parmesan, Oliven.
En annern döt sik vör Pläsier
bej Fiss et Bukfell friewen.
Lukullus, sägg man, is Franzose.
Pasteten, Trüffel, Aubergine,
dat döt denn Franzmann sölwer äten,
dat fünd en Wegg neet öwwern Rhien.
Met de Gormets kann ik mej nich mäten
Tu dür, to fien, niks in en Buk.
Ne Mönsterländer, denn mut äten
wat Kraft güw un so richtig Fukk
Mej geets niks öwwer Pannekooken.
Twej Stükk makt dej sess Stunden satt.
So as Beßvader, denn sik dages
Bookwaitenpannekooken att.
Morgens, vordat dou bakken wiss,
muss dou de Mauen upströpen.
Fiwf Läpel van dat griese Määl,
de kommt no in dat Lööpen,
wor denn Suurdeeg is an’t Raosen.
He is van gistern, schmitt all Blaosen.
Twej Köppkes randvull klor kaold Water
drinschüdden un dann rürn, rürn, rürn,
gans nao Geschmakk en bettken Salt,
so’n Läpelmaot bejstürn.
Denn Suurdeeg döt no sine Arbeid.
De is bis middag gau edaon.
No is de Ssoppe richtig lööpig,
man sägg ook wall, se is egaon.
Twej Eier sachte drunnerbörn
un alles dörenanner schlörn.
De Kookmaschine is all glönig.
De Ringe drut, de Panne drin.
Fief Hasten Spekk, de läöts dou ut,
un denn Deeg läöts dou harin,
fienlööpig ut denn blikkern Schleef,
rechts rümm in’n Kring un sachte sacht,
dat de Spekkhasten neet verrutst.
Oh, dat wörd good, no kriegst dou Schmacht.
Et dürt dej völl to lange, lange,
eerdat denn Deeg wörd brun un stief.
Et Water löpp dej in’ne Mund,
un et jökkt dej in et Lief.
Un is de Tied dann half harümme,
dreis dou denn Pannekooken ümme.
No wörd he langsam brun un knappig,
ringsümm de Kante bross un takkig
Bookwaitenpannekooken rökke
weiht ut de Panne in de Kökke,
dou süüs üm gar dör’t Fenster gaon,
he mäk Apptit, de Lö up’ Straote,
de bliewt staon.
No is he gar un glänst van Fett
glitt ut de Panne, up denn Teller.
En Mess, ne forke up et Brett
Dou gees noch äwen in en Keller,
hölls Röwenkruud un Schwattbrotschiewen.
Dann könnt se dej gestollen bliewen.
En kort Gebädd un hartlik Äten,
met Könninge kas dou dej mäten.
Dou leewe Pannekokentied,
ach, was min Buuk nochmaol so wied.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Language varieties
Gary (above):
> If someone speaks fairly 'High German' then it's no real indicator, as
> they
> could be from the East or West, but I've only heard a really heavy Berlin
> dialect from former East Germans, although milder forms can also be
> heard in the West.
Generally speaking, this was my impression already a long time before
reunification. I had always assumed that it was at least in part due to
relative isolation or insularity, not only because East Germans had few
direct contacts with the outside but also because ordinary people rarely
moved away from their native towns and neighborhood (even less than in
Western Germany, which is far less mobile than American, Canadian or
Australian populations), even within East Germany, this favoring retention
of local language varieties.
Also, I often suspected that Berlin dialect was sometimes used in an
in-your-face fashion when dealing with Western visitors. Let us not forget
that (contrary to what Americans and other Westerners *wanted* to believe)
resentment vis-Ã -vis "Western arrogance" predated reunification, especially
in East Berlin to which Westerners (not only West Germans) could get day
visas relatively easily (and I stress "relatively"). In local eyes, they
tended to flaunt their "wealth" and make the locals feel inadequate. I
remember a couple of instances in which East Berliners switched from
Standard German to Berlin dialect to put me in my place, as if to highlight
the differences between them and me. Once I sat down in a restaurant for
lunch only to be roughly told by a waitress, loudly, to make sure everyone
could hear, _Ach, kiek ma! Det is ma wieda typisch: ma eebm rübakomm un sick
so eenfach hinsetzen, der junge Herr, ejal, wat mit die eenjebornen Diena
is!_ ("Oh, lookie there! Isn't that typical again? Coming over for a spell
and simply sitting down, the young master, and screw the native servants!").
(The long and short of it was that it was New Year's Eve, and that that
restaurant was going to be closed in a few minutes, something I was supposed
to have known, although this was announced nowhere I could see.)
Gary again:
> Whether people say 'der Stollen' - West or East - or 'die Stolle' - only
> East -
> is another (heard an argument between an East Berliner and someone
> from Minden about this one).
Is this the _Stollen_ (masculine) that people eat at Christmas, or is it the
_Stulle_ 'sandwich' (feminine)?
Folks, I've labeled Franz's posting above as [L] (Limburgish) for want of a
better category. It is in "Mölmsch," the Low Franconian dialect of Mülheim
upon Ruhr, Germany, near the border with Limburg of the Netherlands and
Belgium.
Franz says we mentioned Winterswijk and Achterhoek in the Netherlands but
not Bocholt and its dialect _Bokelt_ on the German side of the border.
Franz goers on to say that there is a good writer that uses that dialect:
Ego Reiche, and since it's close to pancake season (???) he provides as a
language sample Reiche's poem _Deftig Äten_ (approximately "Solid, Down-Home
Fare," extolling the virtues of pancakes).
My rough impression about this variety is that it belongs to Münsterland Low
Saxon, thus to the Westphalian group, with which the varieties of Twente and
Achterhoek seem to be closely related, if they do not actually belong to it.
Thanks, Franz!
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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