LL-L "Grammar" 2005.07.06 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: "Grammar" [E]

I've been watching TV series "Firefly" which, like Futurama, was cancelled
by Fox because it was too good for the masses.

This is a cowboy series set in outer space in the far future (trust me to
lower the intellectual level here!), replete with spaceships, magnetic
trains, scientific experiments gone wrong, herds of cattle, bar room
brawls, whorehouses and lots and lots of guns.

These cowboys are all bilingual Chinese (sort of) and English (sort of)
and there are lots of nice touches mixing Chinese culture in with all the
Wild West stuff, such as traditional Chinese clothes and the wearing of
white at funerals. No doubt there's a lot more that I'm unaware of - the
music for example, and perhaps the boardgames that the crew play to while
away the long hours on a space journey are also rooted in Chinese culture.

However, the storylines are really good, as is the acting, at least much
better than low-grade pabulum like Farscape and Star Trek. Also humanity
haven't encountered aliens yet, so you get some relief from plastic
forehead extensions  :)

Anyway, I was quite interested in some aspects of the form of English
used, which I think is just based on the English of cowboys in
common-or-garden cowboy films.

One thing I keep hearing is the dropping of the word "if" in conditionals,
eg:

"She comes our way, you prep the nets."

I think dropping the "if" is unambiguous as the tone tells us that this is
a conditional. It seems to me (from memory and my own speech) that in a
conditional, the tone drops on the second phrase to indicate the
conditional, whether "if" is used or not.

I was wondering, what forms of English use this form of the conditional
without the "if" and how is the conditional indicated - is the tone
pattern always the same?

Are there other lowlands languages where the same sort of phenomenon occurs?

I don't think this can happen is Scots at all - "gin" or "if" is required
in all cases.

On the other hand, in British Sign Language it's the only correct way of
expressing the conditional - shoulder tension is used to indicate the
conditional phrase, and relaxation to indicate the declarative phrase.
Less accomplished speakers sometimes fingerspell the word "if", but it's
not good BSL.

 Sandy http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Sandy,

This type of conditional construction is used in both German and Low Saxon
of Germany as well.  This construction calls for the subject and the verb
in the conditional phrase to switch places; e.g., North Saxon:

1. Du kümst wedder. Ik breek dy d'n rüg.
   "Thou comest again." "I break thee the back."

2. Kümst du wedder, (den) breek ik dy d'n rüg.
   "Comest though again, (then) break I thee the back."

3. Wen du wedder-kümst, (den) breek ik dy d'n rüg.
   "When/if thou again-comest, (then) break I thee the back."

The first is not conditional, just the base sentences.

The second is conditional without "if."  This implies chance or an
unlikely event.

The third uses literally "when."  Both German and Low Saxon of Germany
have virtually lost genuine "if" and use "when" instead.  (German could
use _falls_ or _im Fall, dass_ much like English "in case (that)," but
this is formal and not always appropriate.)  This use of "when" can create
ambiguity.  The third construction might be understood as meaning
literally "when," i.e., the return is likely rather than unlikely.  This
is why the second construction is preferable to express unlikely events. 
This sort of construction was still in use in Middle English: *_(And)
cumystu agen, thenne schall I breken thine rugge._

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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