LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.17 (09) [E]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.JUL.2005 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.17 (06) [D/E]
Jacqueline wrote:
> I love the word "susu" for milk, you can hear it whizz into the bucket
> Also: I find the word "wanbel" for agreement really interesting.
My favourite expression in Tok Pisin is the term for a steep road: "rot i go
daun tumas" (hope I spelled this right).
Gabriele Kahn
------------
From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: Etymology
Beste Ron,
What a wonderful list of Tok Pisin words! Seems the guys love the word
"belong" very much to describe any relationship. :-)
What struck me is that "pekpek" seems to denote "excrement", whereas in
Tagalog it means "vulva". More or less the same happened in Dutch where
originally "kont" was a common word for the female pudenda, but later on
its meaning shifted towards "bottom".
Kind greetings,
Luc Hellinckx
PS: I guess, it must be sheer coincidence that Uyghur has a similar word
for excrement, صوق "pok".
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Gabriele (above):
> My favourite expression in Tok Pisin is the term for a steep road: "rot i
> go
> daun tumas" (hope I spelled this right).
You got an "A" for spelling.
This example shows the sophistication of the language. You can translate
"too" as _tu_ (< "too") or _tumas_ (< "too much"), and you can translate
"very" as _tru_ (< "true"), _mo_ (< "more") or _tumas" (< "too much"). So
it is in _tumas_ that they overlap. You can now semantically play in your
choice of "very." _Tru_, which can also mean 'true', is safe in modifying
positive adjectives, _mo_ allows comparison, and _tumas_ adds an element of
excess and therefore is a great choice in the warning that the road may turn
out to be too steep to navigate safely. However, nowadays none of this
seems to be edged in stone, and semantic boundaries become blurred. So _i
go daun tumas_ is now the standard word for 'steep' -- and 'steep' is, after
all, used in a negative sense most of the time. _I go doun tumas_ even in a
neutral or positive sense is still fine (e.g. _maunten i go doun tumas_
'steep mountain(s) (side)'). I'm not sure, but the difference might be
clearer in the examples _klos meri i makmak_ 'a/the multicolored woman's
dress', 'The woman's dress is multicolored': _klos meri i tru makmak_ vs
_klos meri i makmak tumas_, were the latter might imply negativity.
> What a wonderful list of Tok Pisin words! Seems the guys love the word
> "belong" very much to describe any relationship. :-)
Sure, and other words have similarly taken on morphological function, and
most of this with great consistency. However, what is also very fascinating
here is that English-based pidgins tended to be inherited. Many of such
devices in Tok Pisin, such as _long_ (< "along(side)") for 'at' or 'in', are
also found in other English-based pidgins of the South Pacific, such as
those of Australia (e.g., Broken), Vanuatu (Bislama) and the Solomon Islands
(Pijin), and many of these had their beginning in China Coast Pidgin. These
were taken from colony to colony not only by displaced "natives" but also by
the "English," the latter of whose participation in all of this must not be
underestimated. For instance, _Lukim yu moa_ would be easily understood as
'See you!', 'Bye!' in PNG, Vanuatu and the Solomons.
Consider the beginning of the Declaration of Human writes:
Tok Pisin:
"Long luksave olsem olgeta manmeri mas igat respek, na olgeta manmeri long
dispela graun igat wankain raits long bihainim laik bilong ol, long gat lo
na oda na gat gutpela sindaun.
Long ol hap nambaut taim manmeri i no luksave long raits bilong ol
narapela manmeri, dispela tingting we ol manmeri mas gat fridom long toktok,
gat fridom blong igat bilip, fridom long noken poret na fridom long laikim
ol kainkain samting. Dispela em i bikpela samting bilong olgeta manmeri."
Pijin (Solomon Aelans):
"Taem umi kam fo luk savve lo digniti en ikwol raits blo evri memba blo
hiuman famili. Dis wan hemi givim fandasen fo friidom, jastis en pis insaed
lo dis fala wol.
Taem pipol no luk savve lo dis fala hiuman raits, risalt blo hem nao
pipol i no luk savve lo gud wei en rabis wei. Lo dis fala wol, olketa pipol
sapos fo garem friidom fo tallem tingting blo olketa en wanem olketa
believim. Olketa pipol sapos fo stap frii fo no fraet en fo stap gud. Olketa
tingting ya hemi dea wea evri wan savve olsem hemi samting gud fo evri wan."
English:
"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and
inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of
freedom, justice and peace in the world,
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in
barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent
of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief
and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration
of the common people,"
You can see that Tok Pisin is less Anglified, uses more of its inherent
resources than is Pijin. By the way, mutual comprehension between Tok Pisin
and Bislama is particularly great.
Luc (above):
> What struck me is that "pekpek" seems to denote "excrement", whereas in
> Tagalog it means "vulva".
Probably Indonesian, from which there are tons of loans in Tok Pisin, not
only because of neighboring Iryan Jaya but also because Malays have long
traded around the entire coast and also the coast of Northern Australia,
probably prior to European colonization.
Note this
(http://singh.reshma.tripod.com/alternation/alternation2_2/10rich.htm):
Proto-Austronesian *pekpek beat, hit Blust 1986:68
Proto-Austronesian *peõ a fork of a branch Blust 1986:68
Proto-Austronesian *paõ a forked, pronged Blust 1983:91
Proto-Austronesian *pe(õ )kaõ stretch open/apart Blust 1983:94
Proto-Austronesian *pukaõ crotch, thigh, fork Blust 1983:98
Proto-Austronesian *peka separate, part tv. Blust 1980:125
Thao/Paiwanic paaqi buttocks Benedict 1990:218
Malay paha thigh Yusop 1975:191
See the etymology in Tok
Pisin:http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/PNG/MIHALIC/M2/LetterP/pekpek.htm.
Note the phrase for "I urgently need to use the bathroom": _Pekpek kilim
mi_.
Also 'constipated': _no save pekpek_ (_save_ 'know' > 'can')
> More or less the same happened in Dutch where
> originally "kont" was a common word for the female pudenda, but later on
> its meaning shifted towards "bottom".
And English: British "fanny" versus American "fanny."
So once again a discussion has pretty much gone south. Ah, well ... Blame
gravity!
Lukim yu moa!
Reinhard/Ron
P.S.:
> PS: I guess, it must be sheer coincidence that Uyghur has a similar word
> for excrement, صوق "pok".
I should think so. But how can you ever be sure? By the way, it's _poq_,
and it's pan-Turkic (though in the Western languages they write it _pok_).
Your Arabic script arrives here as Arabic _Suuq_. It's ﻓﻮﻕ at this end.
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