LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.24 (03) [E]

Sun Jul 24 17:51:17 UTC 2005

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.23 (03) [E]

<At any rate, the underlying meaning appears to be "to stretch"(not "to
rake")> you wrote, Reinhard.
I was speaking about the original meaning of <rakker>in Dutch and Low Saxon
What I wrote below was a quote from the excellent Nederlands Etymologisch
Woordenboek of J. de Vries, and he says those first meanings of <rakker>
were "schoonmaker van een privaat" i.e toilet cleaner, "vilder" = skinner,
and "doodgraver", and only AFTER that (1524) "beul" = hangman, torturer.
He also gives the modern Dutch verbs <rakken> and <rakkeren> to clean up
dirt, and German <racken> to sweep together.

But under <rekken> = to stretch the NEW refers also to <raken> and
<rakker>, so <rakker> seems to be related somehow to <rekken> anyway.
Dutch <raken> has two different meanings: 1] to touch, to reach, to hit,
to achieve, and 2] to rake.

Under <raken 2> the NEW speaks of MiddleDutch/MiddleLowSaxon <reken>
to scrape together, MiddleHighGerman <rechen> idem, to grub, OldSaxon
<rekon> to get together, so these e-forms look more like <rekken> again.
To make it even more complicated, Dutch has <reiken> too, i.e. to reach,
to extend, and <bereiken> to arrive, to achieve, to range >aanreiken> to
pass, to hand.
And of course <strekken>, and English <to stretch>, has the same origin as
<rekken>, only with an old <s> prefix.

At any rate, the underlying meaning of <rakker> appears to be "to rake"
first, and only "to stretch" secondary, though these words are probably
related to eachother, too.

Ingmar

Hahn:
>In English there are several verbs and nouns that are homophonous with
>these, but none of them seems to be even remotely connected with "to rake"
>and "rake."  However, I hasten to add that "rack" listed above begins to
>appear in writing in the 14th or 15th century, and that it could very well
>be a Middle Dutch or Middle Saxon loan group.  At any rate, the underlying
>meaning appears to be "to stretch" (not "to rake"), as it survives for
>instance in German _sich recken_ ("to rack oneself") 'to stretch' (e.g.,
>after sleeping).

Roerdinkholder:
>I'm not Arthur, but <rakker>, originally meaning skinner and toilet
>cleaner (!),  is from <rakken> = to sweep/wipe together, to clean up dirt.
>This is an intensive form of <raken>, to rake, which originally meant to
>scrape together, to grub. I don't know about Gothic, but in Swedish and
>Old Norse <raka> means to grub, too.

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Etymology"

> Reinhard schreev:
> >In the majority of Low Saxon dialects that have _rakker_ (<Racker>) it
> means
> >"scoundrel" and the like.  Lindow gives the following glosses in his
> >dictionary: _Schinder, Henker; Schurke, Flegel, Halunke, Schelm; (heute
> >häufig wohlmeinend, bes. zu Kindern), Schalk, drolliger Wicht_.  So it
> seems
> >to have started off as meaning "torturer," then "scoundrel," then
> >"prankster," then "droll guy," and then "naughty or cheeky child."  In
> your
> >dialect it then became simply "child."
> >
> >Now, this leads me to further etymologize _rakker_ (<Racker>) as being
> >related to English "rack," namely the torturer's rack (i.e., a
contraption
> >for physical torture), although I can't think of expected *_rak_
(*<Rack>)
> >occurring in Modern Low Saxon.
> >
Hello !

In East Frisia we know "Racker" for a naughty or cheeky child as an import
from other areas of Northern Germany only but we have the genuine "rak" or
(diminutive) "rakje" meaning "shelf".

Greetings
Holger

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From: Utz H. Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2005.07.23 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Now, this leads me to further etymologize _rakker_ (<Racker>) as being
> related to English "rack," namely the torturer's rack (i.e., a
> contraption for physical torture), although I can't think of expected
> *_rak_ (*<Rack>) occurring in Modern Low Saxon.
>
> Related words:
>
> rakkerey (<Rackeree>): hard/dirty labor
>
> rakke(r)n (<racke(r)n>): to do hard physical labor, to do grunge work,
> to slave
>
> af-rakke(r)n (<afracke(r)n>), sik ___: (id.)
>
> rakker-tuyg (<Rackertüüg>): gang (of "heavies"), ragtag company
>
Moin Ron,

one more related word is:

Rackje (LS), Büstenhalter, BH (G), bra(ssiere) (E)

Certainly it is from LS 'sik afrackern', is n´t it?

Greutens
Utz H. Woltmann

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: hinseln - hänseln

Dear Lowlanders!

I'm Austrian and recently subscribed to Lollands-L. I have a passive
knowledge of Dutch and Low-German, but familiar I'm only with High-German
dialects.

My special interest as a subscriber to Lollands-L is the relation between
High-German, Low-German (-Saxon) and Dutch.

There is a discussion about the origin of LS "hinseln". I've read some of
the postings about that and I'm not sure, if that, what I have to post
aboutthis topic was not already posted before. So anyway this is what I
found:

Hänseln is in German (LG and HG) to tease someone. Today nobody actually
knows what's its origin.

Hänseln is LG and originally means "to admit someone as a member of the
Hanse in terms of community".

A new one has to do something (a ritual, for example a "Mutprobe" = a test
of courage) and often in addition to pay a certain amount of money to become
a member. German "Einstand": A new employee gets his social acceptance by
the others after he has payed for a round etc. As long as the new one has
not fullfilled this social duty, the others criticised or mocked: "He hett
noch nich hänselt!"

So Hänse/Hense  is the money which had to be paid and also a test of courage
to get admitted; hänsen, hensen, later: hansen, hanseln and hinseln is the
verb.

Applied to a funeral it would be the other way round: the late person left
the comunity and has gone in a new one beyond. The neighbours help the
relatives with the funeral by carrying the coffin hence the relatives have
to hänseln/hinseln = to pay for that.

Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4nseln

Regards from Vienna,
Karl-Heinz Lorenz

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" ]

conc. raka

Arthur, hello:

You brought up the Gothic word 'raka', referring to
all kinds of possible related words in germanic
languages.

Well, for me the bell tolls, but I had to look it up.

Gothic 'raka' = 'idiot' is Greek 'rhaka', and this
word again is a loan from Aramean.

So Germanic dialects didn't need other languages to
have their own words denoting stupid people [except in
a bad bible-translation].

Could you agree?

PS: our explorations show us a valuable lesson: stupid
persons are of all times and all places.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Utz (above):

> Rackje (LS), Büstenhalter, BH (G), bra(ssiere) (E)
>
> Certainly it is from LS 'sik afrackern', is n´t it?

How?  "To work hard"?  Ah, perhaps putting it on ... or taking it off ... 
;-)

I rather think it's related to _rakje_ (<Rackje>) in the sense of 'shelf' 
mentioned by Holger above.

Besides, in American slang -- considered rather disrespectful by many -- a 
woman may be described as having "a nice rack," by which not the "shelf" is 
meant but what's sitting *on* the "shelf."

I sense that _rak_ (<Rack>), like English "rack," has the underlying meaning 
"contraption."

Servus, Karl-Heinz, and welcome among the jolly vocal crew of our 
_Narrenschipp_!

You get full marks and today's gold star for your debut.  (If you had put 
"LL-L" in your subject line you would have been awarded today's trophy for 
brilliant posting as well.)

What you wrote was new to me but makes total sense right off.  I checked the 
_Duden Herkunftswörterbuch_, and it confirms what you said.  It is also 
quite consistent with Low Saxon phonology: in certain words, [E] and [I] 
vary dialectically (<ä>/<e> > <i>, e.g., _denken_ ~ _dinken_ 'to think', 
_Engelsch_ ~ _Ingelsch_ 'English'), so _hänseln_/_henseln_ ~ _hinseln_ comes 
as no surprise.

I suppose, and I have read snippet to that effect, that new _maten_ or new 
apprentices in Hanseatic merchant guilds went through various sorts of 
initiation that usually involved mocking and teasing.  Good one, Karl-Heinz!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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