LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (07) [E]
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Tue Jul 26 20:43:35 UTC 2005
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L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUL.2005 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (04) [E]
Heather,
You wrote:
> If the Lowland languages didn't take part in the great High German Sound
> Shift, then doesn't that indicate their languages must be purer , more
> original than HG??
More original, I have to agree, but also 'poorer' in vocabulary and grammar.
HG is a synthesis of many languages, may be of Germanic origin or from
somehere different. This I guess is one of the reasons why it is dominating
the Old German forms.
But this also implies a special distance between the speaker himself and the
language which you won't find in eg LS. HG is not suited for singing, as I
feel, and even when spoken there is a lack of rhythm.
Even when put into rhymes it doesn't loose its artificial character-
completely different from the English of a Shakespeare, for example. That's
much closer to my ears and the anatomy of my tongue.
Regards
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (04) [E]
Hi Ron
> By the way, several decades ago, speakers of Missingsch and
> Missingsch-derived German dialects, had difficulties pronouncing initial
> affricates. They would say things like _Ferd_ for _Pferd_ (LS _peyrd_
> <Peerd>) 'horse' and _Ssunge_ for _Zunge_ (["tsUN@], LS _tung_ <Tung>)
> 'tongue'.
For pf this is still the case here in and around Hamburg. But a proper "z"
is
common. The immigrants however have big problems with "z" and in areas with
large immigrant populations I have noticed that even German children start
using initial s instead of z as in "sum Beispiel".
Regards,
Heiko
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2005.07.26 (01) [E/LS/Missingsch]
Ron wrote:
"By the way, those of you who know German (including second language
learners), can you understand Missingsch when we write it?"
Probably 50% to 70% in my case, as a second language learner. However, I am
fairly competent in Afrikaans and can read a Dutch newspaper reasonably
well, so I might understand more than if I only had German as a second
language.
Paul
----------
From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (04) [E]
I! n some respects the sound shifts to HG are at least as major as those
that split Scandinavian from other Germanic languages, so logically the HG
languages deserve a group of their own. But then English has probably
drifted further than any of them, so perhaps we need a Very-West Germanic
group!
Paul
----------
From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.07.26 (04) [E]
Hi Ron, Heather, Paul!
Certainly, Southern-Germanic would be a good concept for what is now German
etc. Better than High-Germanic, which would indicate once again what the
Prussians and others have stated to favour (High-)German.
The problem of this concept is the still more or less existing dialect
continuum between North
and South Germany. I assume, that such a continuum existed also between LS
and English, but today rather not. Even today you can't draft a border
between High- and Low-German geographically. I'm talking about the crossover
region of Middle-German (between South and North or High and Low).
For example: Dusseldorp-Platt has changed t to ts (z) and maybe some k to
ch, the rest is LG. Is it now low or high?
The nearly extinct Mosel-Franconian dialect in Lorraine/France has some LG
features, as far as I know, they use w/v vor b in words as lieve/liewe
instead of liebe. And maybe they are lacking some shifts from p to pf. But
the rest is more HG. they call it platt, because this dialect is not already
gone . Is it low or high?
In the middle of this two are dialects as in Cologne, Aachen, Maastricht
(Limburgs). Today Meestrech tends to low, Kölsch and Öcher-Platt more to be
high because of the different standard-languages. On the other side Mölmsch
in Mühlheim/Ruhr seems to be definitly LG/Low Franconian (see the
Tuunkönig), although the Mölmsch speaking (unfortunately only a few today)
see themselves more close to other Middle-Franconian (HG) dialects.
(In respect to variety the range of Rhineland, Ruhr-zone and Limburg is the
most confusing [rheinischer Fächer]).
Berlin: something between HG and LG, they see themselves more HG.
Missingsch? etc. etc.
So anyway, this labeling ("schubladisieren") is nearly impossible and not
very productive. So let's concentrate on lowlands etymology. And maybe
sometimes we get high discussing lowlands!
Regards,
Karl-Heinz
PS to Ron: Gary Taylor from Berlin sent me a very illuminative mail about
the theorie HG to be a daughter language of LG. He denied because of the
given Old-HG literature. I researched these documents and for me it looks
like as if in the Old-High-German period (literature from about 800-1100 AD,
unwritten back to about 400, 500?)there must have been a coexistence of HG
and LG in Southern Germany, which ended up in the Middle-High-German period
to what is now German. LG attributes in consonants and other LG features
seem to have been gradually overruled by what is now HG-"Lautstand" and
vocabulary, though some reshifts have taken place. Maybe I'll mail this
material to you and Gary off-list, because it is more relevant to the
development of (High-)German than to Lowlands.
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Karl-Heinz,
It is rare if not unheard of that two fairly closely related languages have
a "clean" borderline between them. There are always bundles of isoglosses
running between them, making a for a fuzzy border. If the in-between
varieties are seen as transitional varieties or as contact varieties
oftentimes depends on the eye of the beholder.
Personally I would like the terminology to be something like this:
Lowlands German
(Lowlands) Saxon
> (Standard Saxon)
Lowlands Franconian (~ Frankish)
> Standard Dutch
> Standard Afrikaans
> (Standard Limburgish)
Highlands German
Central German
> Standard German*
Upper German
* no longer "High German" in English
"Central German" (German _Mitteldeutsch_) would be all those within the
"mess" of isoglosses. Groups like Ba(yu)varian, Franconian and Alemannic
would be "Upper German."
> The nearly extinct Mosel-Franconian dialect in Lorraine/France has some LG
> features, as far as I know, they use w/v vor b in words as lieve/liewe
> instead
> of liebe. And maybe they are lacking some shifts from p to pf. But the
> rest is
> more HG. they call it platt, because this dialect is not already gone . Is
> it low or
> high?
It's considered Central and Rhenish Franconian.
Karl-Heinz, _Platt_ ~ _plat_ is a catch-all label, which is why I avoid
using it. You can find it used not only for Low Saxon, Low German and
Rhenish in Germany, as well as for any indigenous non-standard dialect in
the Netherlands (Dutch, Zealandic, Brabantish, Limburgish or Saxon), but
also for Allemanic dialects. It really means nothing except "non-standard"
and usually implied "sub-standard" and thus "inferior."
> Berlin: something between HG and LG, they see themselves more HG.
> Missingsch? etc. etc.
Clearly a Missingsch (i.e., German on Low Saxon substrate), even though it
isn't officially called that. Berlin lost the Low Saxon language very
early. It is possibly because of that that people don't make the
connection.
It's similarly complex with regard to English and Scots. The varieties of
England's Northumberland and of Scotland's Borders are "transitional," so to
speak, yet the former are considered English while the others are considered
Scots. Is this because the fomer belongs politically to England and the
others to Scotland?
But you are right in saying that an obession with compartmentalizing
(_schubladisieren_) doesn't get us very far.
Karl-Heinz, Low Saxon has certainly played a role in the evolution of
Standard German, not only lexically (e.g., in maritime and nautical
terminology) but also idiomatically by way of North German dialects that
came with Low Saxon substrates. There are also pairs and triplets of
lexical cognates, such as _Stieg(e)_ 'narrow flight of stairs', _Steig_
'steep track' and _Steg_ 'path', 'catwalk', 'footbridge' (LS _steyg_
<Steeg>), and _Ried_ and _Reet_ (LS _reyd_ <Reet> 'reed'). Of course there
are more of those in northern dialects. For instance, as far as I know you
always refer to the thatched roof of a northern house as _Reetdach_, not as
a *_Rieddach_.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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