LL-L "Phonology" 2005.05.09 (03) [B/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Jan Strunk <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2005.05.08 (05) [D/E]

Hello Lowlanders,

Gabriele wrote:
> Ingmar wondered about regional differences in the German prononciation of
> i
> and ü...
>
> ...well, there is a difference between Northern High German, and other
> regions of the country, in the case of an i followed by an r. This is
> probably due to the fact that in the North, we barely pronounce the "r" at
> all, and it is sometimes replaced by an "a" sound:
>
> Wurm - Wu-am
> warm - waam
> fertig - fe-atig, etc.
>
> Now, in the case of "Kirche", "Birne" or "Hirsch", for instance, the vowel
> is spoken as "ü":
>
> Kü-ache
> Bü-ane
> Hü-asch
>
> In Southern Germany, Bavaria vor instance, the "r" would be distinctly
> prononced to produce something like "Kirrche" or "Hirrsch".

And Ron wrote:
> Farther north, in my native neck of the woods, it is not rounded:
>
> Kirche ["k_hI3Ce] ~ ["k_he3Ce]
> Birne ["bI3ne] ~ ["be3ne]
> Hirsch [hI3S] ~ [he3S]

Actually, i isn't rounded before r in Westphalia either. Especially in the
Ruhr valley.
So we say:
Kirche [kiE:Ce] (spelled maybe as Kiäche)
Birne [biE:n@]
Hirsch [hiE:sch]

In this respect, Westphalian influenced German today sounds like the old
dialect:

Ruhr German: Gelsenkiächen  and Westphalian: Gelsenkiäken

Actually, my siblings and I often used to make fun of the rounded
pronunciation because it sounded very strange to us the first time we heard
it. We used to say things like "Dürk geht mit der Bürne auf die Kürmes."
(Dirk goes to the fun fair with the pear.)

Gued gaon!

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.rub.de

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Phonology


>Ik (Ingmar) schreef:
>>In België hoort men overigens soms een andere uitspraak, gelijk
>>aan het
>>Duits,waar <ie> en <uu> (en <oe>) altijd lang zijn, en <i>=[i] en
>><u>=[y].

Da sal dan wel den Aantwaarpsen invloed zèn zeiker? In Aantwaarpe wörre de
körte u en i inderdoad noegal "schaarp" ötgesprouke, mor in Zaandvliet
lèk-et maai asof da se iev'raans tusse de i en de ie klinke, ni soe gesloute
as in 't Aantwaarps dus, mor oek ni zoe "dof" as in Ollaand. Ik wet ni of a
t'r 'n IPA-notoase is da-g-et verschil kleir mokt.

De laange klinkers klinke inderdoad (alf) laank, mor ni  voak kört. Koek,
boek, broek emme ammol een [u]; oofene, roope, wörre ötgesprouke me 'n
klaank da-g-et midde tusse [u:] en [o:] aawt. (In echt idialect toch)

In et Algemieën Neiderlaans van ne mengs oemgeiving Aantwaarpe klinkt d'
ieëste /oe/ as [u] en wört de twidde /oe/ een laange [u:] of [u.].

De verdieëling is ni alted eive doidelijk, ikzelf zeg bevuirbeild oefene,
oefening mor m'n voader zei oofene mè ten twidde klaank.
Mor a t'r ieëne zoeke zaaw ötspreike mè 'n körte oe [u] zaaw alleman 'm
oarig bezien peis 'k. (In 't dialect is 't zuuke mè 'n laange [y:]).

***
I guess this is maybe Antwerpian influence? In Antwerp short i and u are
indeed pronounced very "sharp" (and even often transcribed ie/uu in books
dealing with dialects), But in Zandvliet, about 20 kilometers farther, and
probably/maybe also in other villages in the province, the sound is not as
extreme as in Antwerp. Here one makes sounds with a quality between Antw.
i/u and Netherlandic i/u. This system feels most natural to me and I think
it are those middle forms that are more usual in Belgian Dutch though. (It
always surprises me when my father's girlfriend (from the Netherlands) calls
me Didrek, at least towards me it sounds that way whereas she pronounces it
Diederik!)

Anyway... The long vowels are indeed (half) lang here, but an oe is either
short or long, not always long as Ingmar said. The distribution is not 100%
clear to me and may differ from place to place. a -k- often seems to be
preceded by the short oe: boek, broek, koek are with [u]. Oofene, roope are
with a sounds between long [o:] and [u:]. In real Antw. dialect at least.
In the Standard Dutch of people form this region, the first sound keeps its
value, the second changes its quality to the St. D. [u] but keeps its
quantity, [u:] or [u.].

If you pronounce for example zoeke with the Netherlandic short oe, it sounds
very awkward for us! In dialect one has a long vowel uu [y:] (zuuke).

[Didrek M at Sy:r^]

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