LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.19 (03) [A/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2005 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (04) [E]

Wron Wrote:

>Terrific, aren't they, Ingmar, Elsie's translations?

Terrifyingly Terrific! baie bangmaakdingerig geweldig!

>In desperation I doctored around with some of the soundfiles myself today,
>learned a bit about converting them and reducing their sizes.

You've done well, though, Herr Dokter Hahn!
Quick learner, huh? (NB: I didn't say <savant>)

>By the way, our Jonny has quite the microphone voice, don't you think?
>Very impressive!  I think we should hire him for other projects.

Yes, he'd do excellent as a narrator of fairytales, too.
What is still needed for the A-site is a Standard Dutch soundfile, because
the present version is still the one by Kenneth.
I hope a woman can do that, we already have so much male narrators...
Barbara would do it, she's got a good voice (without an accent) but we
don't have a mike nor know how to do it. Maybe if we could do it somewhere
else, I don't know...

Ingmar

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (04) [E]

Hi Elsie

Subject: LL-L "Anniversary"

> Griekwa Afrikaans has many jewels. Here is Hans du Plessis' translation of
> John 3:16:
> "So lief het die Jirre die mense gehet, lat Hy nou Hy se Kjent gekom
> gestier
> het, lat dies wat in Hom glo en vi hom bit, vi ewig in die jimmel kan ga
> sit."

Dit is darem 'n skat, en dankie daarvoor.

Wyls julle saam op 'n brief sit wil ek die beide van julle aanspreek in
verband met 'klankbreek'.

> Lowlanders, talking about Afrikaans in general and its phonology
> specifically, most of you may be aware that Afrikaans has some falling
> diphthongs that are not indicated in the spelling, such as <oo> [Uo] ~
> [uo].

> I just added our Luc's (excellent) Western Flemish sound file to his
> translation
> (http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=westvlams), and I
> noticed [Uo] for phonemic long "o" right away, as in _zo_ [zUo], _groôt_
> [h\rUot].  As in Afrikaans, this applies to the unrounded equivalent as
> well, as in _kleên_ [kIIe~], _beêste_ ["bIest@].  Also please note
> extensive
> nasalization in both Western Flemish and Afrikaans.
>
> All right, so this may be coincidental, and these features may be more
> widespread within "Dutch" than just affecting Western Flemish and
> Zeelandic.
> However, it is certainly very interesting to observe such similarities and
> to consider the posibility of inherited features in Afrikaans, possibly
> southern features.  This is the beauty of adding sound files to texts,
> because such features are not or just insufficiently represented in
> spelling.

My ouma se mense, by voorbeeld, wat uit Riebeek Wes se wêreld is (jare
gelede), druk sulke woorde soos 'soos, brood, nood en so' net soos die klank
in die Engels 'roof' uit - 'n lange klanker, Ron, nê! (ek sê net, want my
Amerikaanse aangelaptes spreek 'roof' as 'n kortklanker uit). Transvalers,
inteendeel spreek dit so uit, 'so at s, bro at d, no at d en so@'.
Om die rede so ek verwag het dat hierdie aard van klankbreek iets inheems
sou wees.

Die Uwe,
Mark

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (04) [E]

Dear Ingmar

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

> Very nice, very interesting Elsie. Do you know where the name Garib came
> from? Sounds quite Arabic to me, maybe through Malay, meaning Western or
> far off?

Seconded on your observations, Ingmar.

I hope I'm not putting my foot in it. It isn't the Vasikêla dialect I'm
acquainted with (I won't presume to suggest I 'know' it) but I suspect it
also means 'The Dry' like 'harip' = something desiccated. I think it is also
related to the word 'Karoo' which means the same. Bear in mind the
orthography in this case is Old Nederlands, not Old Sonqua.

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Language varieties


>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>
>Thanks, Elsie.  This is really interesting.
>
>I noticed the use of _gekom_ and _ga_ as what appear to be auxiliary
>or
>modal verbs (rather reminiscent of Turkic languages, some of which,
>like
>Uyghur, have a vast and complex array of those).  It looks to me
>like, at
>least in part, they are tense indicators: _gekom_ past perfect, _ga_
>future.
>
>Lowlanders, talking about Afrikaans in general and its phonology
>specifically, most of you may be aware that Afrikaans has some
>falling
>diphthongs that are not indicated in the spelling, such as <oo> [Uo]
>~ [uo].
>
>I just added our Luc's (excellent) Western Flemish sound file to his
>translation
>(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=westvlams),
>and I
>noticed [Uo] for phonemic long "o" right away, as in _zo_ [zUo],
>_groôt_
>[h\rUot].  As in Afrikaans, this applies to the unrounded equivalent
>as
>well, as in _kleên_ [kIIe~], _beêste_ ["bIest@].  Also please note
>extensive
>nasalization in both Western Flemish and Afrikaans.
>
>All right, so this may be coincidental, and these features may be
>more
>widespread within "Dutch" than just affecting Western Flemish and
>Zeelandic.
>However, it is certainly very interesting to observe such
>similarities and
>to consider the posibility of inherited features in Afrikaans,
>possibly
>southern features.  This is the beauty of adding sound files to
>texts,
>because such features are not or just insufficiently represented in
>spelling.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Those features are indeed more widespread. For the vowels compare my (Antw.)
version (where eê = ieë and oô = oeë) or Zandvliets [je] and [wo] (with a
short e/o with the quality of a long one).
This reminds me that I'd still want to have the Zandvliet version
translated, but my contact person is at the moment busy promoting for her
doctorate so has not much time for this.

About the nasal vowels: In Antwerp, only ans gets affected. If I write the
word "kans" I spell it "kaans" with a long aa, a bit nasal. The n is barely
pronounced but indicates the slight nasal pronunciation.
In Zandvliet - the whole north-Antw. polder in fact, has n deleted in front
of s no matter what vowel follows. The vowel is denasalised though.
Ooze = onze; 'ne mees = een mens; kaas = kans (Dutch kaas appears as kees);
v at kaasej/v at rkaasej = vakantie. As it has appeared in all modern loans as
well I think this is more recent a feature than the ingwaeonic loss of n(s).

I've never heard those nasal vowels more eastwardly.

Diederik Masure

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From: Þjóðríkr Þjóðreksson <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (04) [E]


>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (03) [A/E]
>
>Final -r dropping is very common in the Eastern Netherlands, not
>only in
>Low Saxon but also when someone is speaking Standard Dutch, after
>long aa
>it isn't heard at all, e.g. <was ze maa klaa met haa haa, daa
>verlang ik
>zoo naa, 't duuet nou al 'n paa jaa, dat vin ik zoo raa> "was ze
>maar
>klaar met haar haar, daar verlang ik zo naar, het duurt nu al een
>paar
>jaar, dat vind ik zo raar".

In Belgium this pronunciation is gaining influence too, maybe under
influence of the more backwards /R/ that replaces the older tongue /r/. I
myself who has inherited a "bad" r from my mother, whose father grew up in
France (Nice), have much trouble pronouncing an r at the end of a word,
sounding like a /h/ or disappearing entirely. People here with the "good" r
usually still pronounce it more clearly.
The gaining influence is mostly in short words though, like "maar", maybe
also through chatting language where one writes maar, mor, mo, ma, mr all
mixed up but ma and mo are most popular. E.g. in klaar, where Ingmar placed
it, it's unusual. One encounters klaar, kloar, kleir here where 1 is St.
pr., 2 is fake dialect pr. and 3 is "genuine". Never heard kla.

It's own (= old, original) only in more eastern dialects I think:
Herenthouts hie = Antw. ier; H. maa = Antw. mor; H. daa = Antw. doar/dor. A
friend in Lichtaart (quite near my friend in Herenthout) says veu, Antw.
veur. Also in Vlaams Brabant this appears, I know someone in Londerzeel who
types (I never met her apart from MSN so I have to judge on her typing) "da"
both for dat and daar (1 with short a and 2 with long a; not indicated in
spelling) and of course the very chat-popular ma (maar). Leuvens 'ne Kjee =
een keer, Antw. 'ne kieër.

Diederik Masure

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From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.06.18 (04) [E]

Haai almal,

Ingmar, the Garieb (river) was called !Garib ('great river') by the San and
the trekking
Afrikaner also called it 'Groot rivier'. Subsequently it became the Orange
river and has
been officially renamed to Gariep.
>Do you know where the name Garib came from?

No, 'kind' is pronounced 'kint' rather than 'kunt'.
>Because normally in Afr. they are both the same rounded, as in Dutch <rug>
etc, and Afr. <kind> sounds more like D. <kunt> than like D. <kind> [kInt]
isn't it?

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Lowlanders!

Happy Fathers' Day to all Lowlander dads, if they celebrate today or not!

Ingmar (above):

> >By the way, our Jonny has quite the microphone voice, don't you think?
> >Very impressive!  I think we should hire him for other projects.
>
> Yes, he'd do excellent as a narrator of fairytales, too.

That's exactly what I thought.

> What is still needed for the A-site is a Standard Dutch soundfile, because
> the present version is still the one by Kenneth.

And I thought that too.  (Darn! I've got to stop agreeing with you!)

> I hope a woman can do that, we already have so much male narrators...

True.  (Shoot! There I go again ...)

> Barbara would do it, she's got a good voice (without an accent) but we
> don't have a mike nor know how to do it. Maybe if we could do it somewhere
> else, I don't know...

Well, why not start using your irresistible charm to shmooze her into it
already?  How did you get those recordings of yours done?  Did you get help
from Kenneth?  (OK, Kenneth, time to return north, buddy!)

By the way, it's more than all right to have more than one recording for one
translation.  The more the merrier, really.  It gives the listener an idea
about range of variation.  (We already have two narrations for the
Westerlauwer Frisian version.)  For the Standard Dutch version it would be
really neat to get a narration by a person from the Netherlands and one from
Belgium, to give an idea of the range of standard pronunciation.  Do we have
any volunteers?

Mark (hierbo):

> Dit is darem 'n skat, en dankie daarvoor.

Ja, en nou het ons meer Afrikaanse vertalings en klanklêers nodig ... ook in
Gail, Oorlams, Tsotsitaal, Suid-Afrikaans Engels, Ndebele, Zoeloe, Xhosa,
Sotho, Swati, Tsonga, Tswana, Venda, Herero, Kwanyama, Nama, Ndonga, Shona
... en ... en ...

("Meer, meer!" skreeu die kleine Häwelmann ...)
Deutsch: http://www.storm-maerchen.de/
English: http://www.kellscraft.com/BestStories/beststories05.html#JACK

Tata!
Reinhard/Ron

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