LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.03.21 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAR.2005 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Language Politics


From: Mathieu van Woerkom <mathieu at brabants.org>
I'm afraid you won't any information on Limburgish in the Taalunie
resources; The Dutch Taalunie is only interested in standard Dutch. They
will most likely even deny that there is a Limburgish language.
I'm also afraid that there are no English-Limburgish dictionaries (yet).
What exactly do you mean with historical references?

Hello Mathieu,
I know the Taalunie is not interested in Limburgish and this is the reason
why I wrote an email to them. I hoped they could logically and historically
explain to me that Limburgish as a language does not exist and is in their
opinion a minor dialect of Dutch which to me is linguistically absurd as I
think Limburgs has a better case for recognition as a seperate language than
Frisian for instance, which is fully recognised, and rightly so. They just
do not wish to enter into dialogue.
There are many good Limburgs/Dutch dictionaries and I believe there has been
good linguistic recording of the various versions of Limburgs from the
different regions eg. Sittard, Maastricht and others. I am always amazed
living here in Australia why there is no drive or desire by the various
Universities in the Netherlands to create a Limburgs / English dictionary or
online courses given the increasing volume of overseas students who do
courses or degrees in the Maastricht, Leiden  and other universities.
Distance education lends itself to online courses but there do not seem to
be any. It seems the unis do not want to make money and / or they do not
think anyone but the locals would be interested in their language and
culture, or perhaps they have a big chip on their shoulder. More probably
they believe the bullshit (Aussie colloquialism) espoused by the Taalunie
uber alles elitists.
Mathieu, I have added a link from your excellent website.
http://limburgs.cjb.net/
Quote "Incidentally, it is difficult to determine the exact age of
Limburgish. Its earliest know written form goes back to about 1170 (the
works of Henric van Veldeke)." These are historical reference points. If
Limburgish has written forms then these are markers in time, and if other
cultures refer to the dialect or language then these also are markers. I
have never done any research on the history of the language and know the
state of Limburg was only created in the 1800's but language and states do
not have to coincide and can have varying timelines. I would love to be able
to read about the history of the language. The area has been settled for
such a long time and has had much Roman colonialism as shown by the
archealogical finds of villas etc. Any reference to the way people spoke in
this geographical area would be interesting to me. I know the area around
Brabant has always been significant in the history of Netherlands and the
area around Maastricht also. This is the stuff the "Taalunie" should
concentrate on, know your history to understand your present and future. To
me they seem to be too much interested in glossing over the various dialects
and histories of the Netherlands in their desire to promote a single strong
Dutch language. I do love Dutch, and do not mean to denigrate the language,
people and culture but just get annoyed with these institutions like the
Taalunie.
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au

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From: Mike <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2005.03.17 (02) [E]


QUOTE
From:  "Peter Snepvangers" <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Language and dialects

Hello Reinhard,

I just read your mail on the Lowlanders list and Ingmar's reply regarding a
single orthography for Low Saxon. I have forwarded you this email because
etc.
END QUOTE

Very interesting your exchanges, Peter and Ron.
Thank you for informative reading.
Please fill me in, Peter, on the significance of this
your following sentence:

QUOTE:
...all these Saxons and Frisians
running about the northern world prior to the year 775 could understand each
other very well.
END QUOTE

Why would 775 mark the end of the intercomprehensibility of Saxon
and Frisian? That date is suspiciously close to the massacre of Verden,
and falls into the period where the Franconisation of continental Saxon
began. Does it have anything to do with it? What is it with 775?
Thanks beforehand for your tutoring!
Greeting to all, Mike Wintzer

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Hi, Folks

Peter wrote above:!

<quote>

I know the Taalunie is not interested in Limburgish and this is the reason
why I wrote an email to them. I hoped they could logically and historically
explain to me that Limburgish as a language does not exist and is in their
opinion a minor dialect of Dutch which to me is linguistically absurd as I
think Limburgs has a better case for recognition as a seperate language than
Frisian for instance, which is fully recognised, and rightly so. They just
do not wish to enter into dialogue.
</quote>

In itself it's not a bad strategy to ask territorialist-oriented
organizations such "innocent" questions.  At best, it will make some
individuals think.  At worst -- and I'm afraid this is the case more often
than not -- it will make them dig in their heels, solidify their attitudes
and make them search for strategies of answering questions without agreeing
(usually reserved for more "important" people, such as media representatives
or "established" opponent organizations).  However, in Eurasia they still
have the convenient option of ignoring such inquiries from mere individuals.
This appears to be the preferred option, drawing from traditional social
divides between those "on high" and their "subjects."

What comes into it in cases of this sort is the assumption that it is and
always will be an internal matter that will not come to the attention of
large numbers of foreigners, that foreigners are not interested in or don't
care about such things, don't even know about it in most cases.  And this is
where the Internet has provided a convenient tool that vastly enhances
international "watchdogging."  What most governments and the institutions
that cosy up to them fear most (unless they are truly "out there") is
international criticism, anything that adversely affects their international
image, especially in the case of countries that take pride in their good
reputation or that try to restore a good reputation.  The treatment of
minorities is a particularly sensitive issue.  In my opinion and experience,
simply demonstrating that the issue is indeed being monitored
internationally can be a rather powerful tool -- this and demonstrating that
diversity is not an adversity but a potential asset if handled with
generosity.  The repeated subliminal message "We're watching you" and the
occasional foreign media exposé can do wonders.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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