LL-L "Language politics" 2005.05.17 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17.MAY.2005 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language politics

I made some publicity in the "veldeke" Limburgish group  about the Lowlands
anniversary pages in Limburgish (message 1 below). I got 2 reactions about
"general Limburgish" (messages 2 and 3 below). Rather negative
reactions about that variant I'm afraid.

I'm not familiar with "general Limburgish" nor do I know wheter or not it's
popularity is increasing (in the Netherlands?)

Question I have is "When does an artificial construction become a language?"
If I create 50 variants of English, will I be invited by Ron for writing 50
more variants of the Lowlands invitation page? What are the criteria for
being taken seriously?

Regards,
Roger

----- Original Message -- 1 ---
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Reply-To: veldeke at yahoogroups.com
To: <veldeke at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [veldeke] Versies in Limburgse varianten
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:27:58 +0200

Op de website van lowlands staan 6 versies van eenzelfde verhaal in
verschillende versies in het Limburgs

Venlo (Nl)
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs-venlo

Vliermaal (B)
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs-vliermaal
(met gesproken versie, van mezelf)

Mühlheim (D)
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs-mulheim

Saarn (D)
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs-mulheim-saarn
(met gesproken versie)

Berjisch (D)
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs-berjisch

Algemein Limburgs
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=limburgs

mvg,
Roger

----- Original Message -- 2 ---
From: marco clerinx
To: veldeke at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: [veldeke] Versies in Limburgse varianten

Beste Roger,
Wat moet dat "algemein Limburgs" dan wel wezen? Een kunstmatige taal met als
dialecten de traditionele Limburgse tongvallen? Moeten we dan later de
dialecten gaan beschermen tegen dat Alg.B.Limburgs, zoals we nu tegen de
overheersende positie van het ABN moeten opboksen?
Groetjes,
Marco

----- Original Message -- 3 ---
From: Joseph Breesch
To: veldeke at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [veldeke] Versies in Limburgse varianten

Goed gezien, mijnheer Clerinx!  Wie over "almeen Limburgs" spreekt is niet
enstig met dialect bezig .

Joseph Breesch
Rijkel

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

I can't answer your questions, Roger, but I can make a few comments, though
I do not want this to be understood as meaning that I am a proponent of the
language variety in question.

(1) Proponents of (previously) suppressed  or oppressed minority languages
want these languages to survive.

(2) Survival depends in large part on unification.

(3) Be it artificially or "naturally" over time, some sort of "common range"
will be created when speakers of different dialects communicate with each
other, if for no other reason then to avoid or replace words that are not
understood by everyone.

(4) Proponents of these languages resist any attempt to create a general
dialect, one of their arguments being that such a supposed standard variety
would then threaten the dialects.

(5) Are non-standard dialects of languages with standard varieties more
threatened than dialects of languages without standard varieties?  If so,
why is it that English, for example, still has a plethora of dialects?

While I appreciate some feelings of reluctance and resistence people have, I
personally do not think that they have much of a consistent package of
arguments, that most of what they voice in opposition is emotional, kneejerk
reactions to anything new, anything they even vaguely suspect of being
"doctored."  In a word, they want it both ways, each protecting his own
little garden plot while closing their eyes to the need for a wall that
would protect the entire garden colony from the bulldozer.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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