LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.21 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAY.2005 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> The average German, on the other hand, especially
> one that doesn't know Low Saxon, does not understand Dutch
> and Afrikaans, not even in writing.

I think that's true...but methinks it's even more true that the average
Englishman, would understand Dutch even less than a (South) German. Both in
writing and speaking.

Apart from intelligibility, I do agree though with all the other reasons
that you gave (why you define your "territory" in the way you do *s*).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Luc!

Geez!  It's great to have you back in the thick of things!

>  think that's true...but methinks it's even more true that the average
> Englishman, would understand Dutch even less than a (South) German.
> Both in writing and speaking.

Of course!  If mutual intelligibility were the only criterion the
"territory" would look quite different.  Yes, due to their insular position
and specific histories, English and Scots have developed in peculiar ways.
The fact is still that they are direct descendants of Lowlands languages and
that they fit into the scheme in that they represent some of the most
divergent developments within the language group, continued farther by
various English dialects of Asia and Africa as well as by contact languages
such as Tok Pisin (and also the "Dutch"-based creoles).

As far as I am concerned, Gabriele's points are well taken, in great part
because I know they come from a good place and are expressed with benevolent
honesty as well as with tolerance and compassion, if not even affection.
The way I understand her argument is that in her and most North Germans'
realities Low Saxon and German always figure in tandem, that German cannot
be disregarded in their lives because it dominates everything, and most
people in her region understand both of them, thereby concluding that they
are mutually intelligible.

However, if we follow through with this we need to acknowledge that not
German but Dutch, English, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. play such a
role in the realities of Low Saxon speakers outside Germany (except in the
case of most Mennonites who have taken German domination along in their
diaspora).  This may well explain why Low Saxon dialects outside their
country tend to be disregarded by Germans.  It does not conform to their
version of reality.  Dealing with it on an international level would
illustrate that Low Saxon is indeed a separate language that can get on just
fine without German.

The problem as I see it is that folks want Low Saxon to be recognized as a
language so it can be protected and supported, but they don't want it to be
so independent that it could have a life of its own, a life separate from
German.  In a word, they want it both ways: recognition but not
independence.  They still think of it as an appendage of German, German's
homely but lovable sister, which is also why they will only deal with it
academically as a subcategory of German studies (while Dutch and Afrikaans
belong to Neerlandistics and English makes up Anglistics).
While people are entitled to their own biases, I just feel that there ought
to be room for alternative sets of contexts.  Dealing with Low Saxon and Low
Franconian varieties of Germany within their original genealogical and
typological "Neerlando-Anglistic" context is merely an alternative approach,
and I happen to believe that it could be more beneficial to their survival
chances than the German-dependent approach.  This alternative approach does
not disregard German but deals with it only within this context.  You would
have to conclude that feeling threatened by such an approach and considering
it disloyal, secessionist, subversive or some such hostile thing (which I am
quite confident does not apply in Gabriele's case) comes from a
nationalistic mindset, and it does not matter if people swear up and down
that they are not nationalists.  (Seeing my approach as anti-German is
clearly absurd.  As probably most of you know by now, I am not anti any
country or ethnicity, truly love and adore all of them.  Why would I be anti
the ones that produced my relatives and me?)

Let's assume that instead of Lowlands-L our forum were called Italica-L or
something like that, and our focus were the Italo-Dalmatian branch of
Romance, such as Italian, Sicilian, Sardinian, Corsican, Dalmatian, Istriot,
...  Would we include French (a Romance language of a different branch) as a
core language because it dominates Corsican and Monaco Ligurian and has
overshadowed and influenced them to such a degree that they now sound like
Italian spoken with the heaviest French accent?  No.  (Would this approach
irk quite a lot of French people? You bet your sweet ninny it would!)  Would
we deal with French within this Italo-Dalmatian contest?  Yes.  Would we
include as a core language Catalan (a Romance language of a different
branch) because in Alghero, Sardinia, it is used in conjunction with
Sardinian and Italian?  No.  Would we ignore it?  No.  And we would not
ignore Slavonic varieties such as Slovenian and Croatian either since they
dominate(d) the lives of Venetian-, Italian- and Dalmatian-speaking citizens
of Slovenia and Croatia.

Enough with the explaining already!

Toodleloo!
Reinhard/Ron

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