LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (04) [E/?]

Tue May 24 20:48:51 UTC 2005

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.23 (06) [E]

Tom Carty wrote
"If we can count local heavy accents as being dialects and languages in
English, such as Northumbrian, surely Lower Saxon can have that status?"

I'm not sure that a heavy accent does make a dialect.  I have a Geordie
colleague who speaks with a very strong Northumbrian accent, but I've never
heard him use any dialectial words.  He always says "go", not "gan" for
example.  He makes it sound like "gooah", but it is clearly Standard
English, just said his way.

If a Lakelander says "'t bairns 'r laykin' in't beck", that's dialect; he
could say "the kids are playing in the stream" in a Cumberland accent, and
some non-English people might find it hard to understand, but it would still
be Standard English.  An interesting question though; If I were to say "'t
bairns 'r laykin' in't beck" in my fairly neutral slightly Australian
accent, am I speaking a dialect in my own accent? (a Lakelander would assume
I was taking the p***, but that's a separate issue).

Paul

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.05.24 (02) [E]

I'd like to bring up a different subject in the Low Saxon-German 'problem':
German has influenced Low Saxon for a long time, but more interesting
for our Lowlands-list may be the influence of Low Saxon on the deutsche
Sprache. When I first learned German at school I noticed that 'formula'
as discussed with "Patentplatt" between Dutch and German, but soon I
discovered there were unexpected exceptions to that rule, and I supposed
they had to come from Low Saxon or sometimes Dutch or even other Germanic
languages. My question is in what Standard German is different from
Oberdeutsch -the Southern German dialects, and so how Niederdeutsch it
actually is?

Ingmar Roerdinkholder

translation in 'German' after aplying that formula from Dutch consequently:

ich will grach ein ander Underwarf inbringen in es Nettertautsch-
Hochtautsch Problem:
Tautsch hett Sassisch vor lange Zeit beinflut, mahr interessanter vor unse
Lachlands-Leist iss wohllicht der Influt van Sassisch uf der tautsche
Zahl. Zun ich vor es erst Tautsch uf Schul hebb gelehrt iss mei
ufgefallen dasz er ein Formule züschen Netterlandsch enn Tautsch wass,
mahr ich hebb auch schnell unteckt dasz er unverwachte Autsünderungen
waren, enn ich dacht dasz die aus es Nettertautsch, Netterlandsch ob selbs
andere germaansche Zahlen quamen. Mein Frag iss in welch Ufsicht Standart-
Tautsch verschillt van Obertautsch - de Saut-Tautsche tialechte, enn hu
Nettertautsch es eigenlich iss?

Ingmar Ruhrtinkhalter

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

I'll leave the nitty-gritty to others, will just mention that there is a
fair bit of older lexical Low Saxon borrowing (both straight loans and
calques).  Much or most of coastal and maritime vocabulary is of Low Saxon
origin, not too surprising.  In some cases this led to the creation of pairs
with specialized meaning.  Examples:

StG (ModLS < MidS)
Boot (boot < bôt) 'boat' (cf. G Kahn 'barge')
Fleet (vleyt < vlêt) 'city canal' (gracht, cf. MG vlietz)
Düne (duyn(e)) 'dune'
Kliff (klif < clif) 'cliff' (cf. G Klippe < OG kleb)
Tampen (tampen) 'very thick rope'
Reep (reyp < rêp ~ reip) 'rope'
Steg (steyg < stêg) 'footbridge' (cf. G Stieg 'path')
Reet (reyt < ried ~ rêd) 'reed' (cf. G Riet)
Deich (dyk < dyk ~ dîk) 'dike' (cf. G Teich 'pond')
Watt (wat < wat) 'tideland'
Tide (tyd(e) < tyde ~ tîde) 'tide' (cf. G Gezeit 'tide', Zeit 'time')

There are also lots of zoological and botanical vocabulary loans.

Besides that, there seem to be bunches of idiomatic expressions.  I have a
feeling that _ab und zu_ (LS _af un tou_) and (more specifically Northern)
_ab und an_ (LS _af un an_), both 'now and then', belong to it ("better"
German _gelegentlich_).

Of course, the Northern dialects of German have more LS loans.  Many
Northerners aren't aware of them being local, and Southerners may not
understand them, or they find them "typical."  But I think this is happening
less and less as the Northern color is fading away at a stage of advanced
Germanization.

As for phonology, I believe that the fast spreading feature of final
fricativization of _-g_ belongs to LS influence (e.g., _einig_ ['aInIC],
Southern dialect ['aInik]), 'agreed', 'unanymous').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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