LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.30 (08) [A/E]

Wed Nov 30 21:12:41 UTC 2005

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30 November 2005 * Volume 08
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From: Obiter Dictum <obiterdictum at mail.ru>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.29 (04) [A/E]

Mark Dreyer het geskryf:
> Subject:  LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.11.28 (05) [A/E]
>
> Toemaar. Ek ag nie motivering 'n voorvereiste om in 'n taal belang te stel
> nie. Aanhou wen.
Baie dankie, Mark, I'm trying my best:)

> Ja, Bulgaars:) Dit het eweneens die bepaalde lidwoord.
> Dankie vir die skimp.
Mark, no skimp intended: Bulgarian DOES happen to be the only analytical 
Slavic language and THE only one having definite article -- post-positive, 
like Romanian, or definiteness flexion, as jy wil:) Ron, confirm?
>
> Maar Maleis stop my tans in my spore oor sy eienskappe. Dit blyk dat mens
> dit op 'n baie elegante vlak kan gebruik, as jy wil.
I agree:)
>
> S? nou vir my, sukkel jy werklik met die Taal?
"Sukkel" is die regte woord, Mark:).

> Waar ondervind jy die probleme?
Two this far: (i) too little time to make the sessions regular and (ii)
no native speaker around to pick the right pronunciation from and ask the 
occasional question:) You don't mind my writing to you direct from time to 
time, asking questions?

> Ek wil net tot u troos byvoeg _ek_ het jou nog nie met 'n
> skandelike fout betrap nie!
Mark, I don't claim I am good at die Taal:) ek is net not 'n beginner, and I 
readily admit it:)
>
Thanks-
Vlad
>
> Ian Pollock wrote:
>
> As many of you doubtless know, Russian and a couple of other
> Slavonic languages have no conjugations of the verb "to be" in the
> present tense (except very occasionally in literary style).
> So, for example, ~{'3'Q'^~} ~{'d'm~} ~{'c'S'`']'`'i'n~}!
> (sam ty svoloch)… This is the way the East Slavonic languages work.
> Period.

Ian, sam ty… generatiwist:).

*This* is the way the East Slavic (NOT Slavonic) languages work. Colon.
Quote. As a *native* Russian speaker, I'm always aware of the "esm'," 
"esi,", "est'," "esmy," "este," or "sut'" I DROP from my every day oral or 
written speech. Press a Russian, Ukrainian and Byelorussian for truth, and 
(s)he will admit the same, though most would probably do with the 3rd person 
singular ("est'") for all the persons, singular or plural. The verb looms in 
our consciousness, however unspoken and unwritten. But it [be] always there. 
Unquote.

OK, from the _formal_ point of view, you CAN of course keep asserting that 
once void of external expression, it just doesn’t exist, whether you have it 
in your mind or not--it doesn’t transcribe in IPA character, after all.

Jokes apart, Ian: it's, imho, a case of customary ellipsis. The same sort of 
think when you drop whole words offering a drink: "[Will you have a] Drink?"

Thanks Ian, [I could do with a] Vodka cappuccino:)
Incidentally, when I was taught English, one unofficial rule was: The 
absence of [any] article is also an article.

>….  and that its phonemic form was simple
> silence. How would the IPA for that work? /   : / ?!
That brings a Zen koan to my mind.
A monk asked the disciple, "You clap [your two] hands. The sound is a clap. 
What is the sound if you clap with one hand?"
The disciple came up with a series wrong answers: gurgle of water, whisper 
of breeze, rustle of foliage (I may be wrong, don't remember for sure).
Then the satori occurred: he realized the sound was silence:)

De-generatively Yours,
Vlad [Lee]

-------------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Моят приятел Влад Цепеш (който набива на кол), написа по-горе:
Мой приятель Влад Колосажатель написал выше:

> Mark, no skimp intended: Bulgarian DOES happen to be the only analytical 
> Slavic z
> language and THE only one having definite article -- post-positive, like 
> Romanian, or
> definiteness flexion, as jy wil:) Ron, confirm?

All right.  Since it's you, I'm backing you up.  Indeed, Bulgarian has a 
suffixed definite article.  It is by many believed to go back to the old 
Bulgar language.  If they mean by that the Turkic Bolgar language that 
developed into Chuvash farther northeast, I have to disagree, since Turkic 
has no articles -- though it is true that Bulgarian has Turkic substrates 
and influences.  I rather suspect that, if it has not been inspired by 
Romanian (which, like Latin, has suffixed definite articles), it is a 
preserved ancient feature.

The koan you referred to (隻手音声) is widely attributed to Hakuin Ekaku (白隠 慧鶴 
, 1686-1769).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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