LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.10.06 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

06 October 2005 * Volume 02
=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L Language vairieties

Awrigh' everyone

just listened through the majority of the non-English
Anniversary versions of the Wren and the thing that
struck me most (being English) is how they compare to
English dialects. What I've (personally) found is that
Dutch and Netherlands Saxon versions (to me) sound
like North England / Scottish English dialects -
mainly through (colourful) intonation /pure / and
clipped vowels whereas Low Saxon versions from Germany
tend to sound more like Southern England English
versions mainly through (flatter) intonation and
especially the diphthongs which are especially
reminiscent of Southern English diphthongs.

I'd like to hear your opinions, and if you agree. I
always would have thought that the North of England
would have sounded more like the North of the Low
Saxon area (i.e. North Germany) and the South like the
South, but to me this doesn't seem the case. Would be
nice to hear from non-(native) English speakers to see
if they feel the same as me.

Gary

http://hometown.aol.com/taylor16471/myhomepage/index.html

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Gary

Oy, Gary, mate!

That's precisely the way I have always perceived it.  I'm please to know 
that you've gone to the bother of listening intensively and attentively and 
have come to the same conclusion.

Especially the phonological similarities between Northern Germany and 
Southern England struck me when I first spent time in England as a teenager 
and has fascinated me since.

I need to add to the mentioned features:

(1) "non-rhotic" (i.e., r-"deletion," actually  r-vocalization)

(2) Unfortunately, we do not (so far) have an example from Northern Hamburg 
where in Low Saxon (and in some speakers even in Missingsch) you get the 
semi-unrounded realization [eU] of /ou/ (as in "go" [geU]), which is so 
prevalent in Southern England, at least Southeastern England, and also in 
Australia and New Zealand.

(3) There's the oft-mentioned realization of /ar/ as [a:] (sounding much 
like Standard Dutch <aa>) that is typical for Cockney (and related 
dialects), Australian and New Zealand English.
(4) There is the realization of /aa/ as [Q:], much like in very "posh" 
Southern English (e.g., _can't_ [kQ:~nt]).

(5) Long vowels tend to be comparatively longer in both regions than in 
comparable regions.

(6) There is a tendency toward nazalization even in the absence of 
nasalizing consonants (e.g., Southern English _last_ [lQ~:st]).

(7) Finally, but surely not lastly, there is aspiration of voiceless stops 
(in Low Saxon and Missingsch only word-initially, though).

As for the dialects of Northern England, they do *not*, generally speaking, 
have the features mentioned above.  In addition, they sound more "clipped," 
as you put it, and they sound "faster," lack the "slow drawl" of the 
comparable regions.  Yes, much of it reminds you of the western parts of the 
Continental Lowlands.  I would also loosely group Scots in with this bunch.

As for South African English, I venture to guess that it is based mostly on 
Southern English (as is Australian and New Zealand English) but has in more 
recent times taken on very noticeable Afrikaans features (some of which 
belong to the "opposite" category), such as strong nasal assimilation and 
absence of aspiration.

Your wild guess is as good as mine as for the reasons for these 
similarities.  Is it all coincidence?  Is it consistent with historical 
migration?  Did the Saxons take with them early tendencies that would 
account for similarities between Northern Germany and Southeastern England? 
Might later contacts between the Hanseats and Londoners have contributed to 
it?  English and North German sailors mixing?  English trading presence in 
coastal Northern Germany?  I hardly think that Angles are responsible for 
the Northern English features, unless "Angles" was a catch-all for a diverse 
group that (as has been alleged) included folks from the Lower Rhine region 
as well, and of course Frisians.  Furthermore, there was large-scale 
medieval and early post-medieval "Flemish" migration into Northern England 
and Scotland, partly via Wales.

And then there are the eastern regions of the Continent.  So far we don't 
have an example of a "typically" eastern-sounding Low Saxon dialect.  Some 
of the Slavonic substrate features are noticeable in Mennonite dialects 
(Plautdietsch).  But if you listen especially to our Reuben's rendition you 
will also very clearly hear the presence of "Dutch" and Frisian sounds, and 
this is consistent with Mennonite history.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================