LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.06 (04) [E/LS/German]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2005.09.06 (01) [E]

Reinhard,

you wrote (in two different mails):

> _Tal_ (<Tall>) has a short /a/, certainly in the majority of North Saxon
> dialects.  It is most definitely not wrong.  In fact, it is predominant.
> There are some dialects that actually do have a long /aa/, and I believe
> they are only in the Eastern Friesland, Emsland and Oldenburg areas, where

> LS has Frisian substrates.
Sorry, man! 'Taal/Tool' with a long vowel is the normal way to pronounce it
all over the Northern LS-varieties, from Schleswig-Holstein to the
Luneburger Heath and from the Dutch boarder to Hamburg. Maybe there are any
Westfalian dialects using it spoken shortly, maybe in Mecklenburg, though I
cannot believe it: the Mecklenburgers normally are very close to the
'Haidjers'. And I'm very sure about this, because one half of my family
living in the Luneburg area are still native speakers, and I had been living
myself in Eastern Frisland for a while learning their pronounciation very
well. I don't think we have to discuss our own region at the Lower Elbe.

> > 'bören' = 'to carry/to bear' suddenly has the same meaning as
> > 'lüchten/liften' = 'to lift' (W. Wisser)
>
> Incorrect (your other examples notwithstanding).  Wilhelm Wisser uses
> _upbören_ ("böört ... up"), which is one way of saying 'to raise' (G
> _aufheben_), as opposed to _bören_ 'to bear', 'to carry'.  I've heard or
> read it elsewhere as well, and I have used it myself.
I'm sure again- it *is* corrupted LS and not used this way in the areas I
mentioned above.

> _Liften_ ~
> _lüften_,
> too, means 'to raise', 'to lift', but I associate something a bit heavier
> with it
Sorry once more- just the other way it fits:

'Dat kann ick 'ne bör'n' = 'Ich kann es nicht (er-)tragen, schleppen';
'Lüch mol dien Fout opp' = 'Heb' mal deinen Fuß hoch';
'Dreeg dennen Sack mol oppen Kournböö'm' = 'Trage den Sack mal auf den
Kornboden'.
Maybe you and all the 'Wissers' read/heard something like 'uppbören' in the
sense of 'aufbürden'? I don't know this variation, but I wouldn't dare to
exclude it.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: Low Saxon: ganz vs. heel


Moin tosamen,

wie verhält es sich mit den Wörtern "ganz" und "heel". Wie weit sind diese
verbreitet? Gibt es dazwischen einen speziellen Unterschied, den ich nicht
kenne? (So wie zwischen Klöör und Farv?)

Heißt es "de hele Week" oder "de ganze Week".

Jonny, ist "ganz" für Dich Patentplatt?

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Folks,

Underneath my rather tedious rebuttle you'll find some non-Jonny-related, 
somewhat pedinoxenic information about names of months.

Jonny,

What makes you the arbiter of right and wrong all of a sudden?  I thought 
you were against prescriptivism.  According to what you said, I and 
virtually every speaker and writer I know have been wrong all this time. 
The INS and other organizations had better revise their dictionaries to 
delete all occurrences of hitherto predominant _Tall_ and change them to 
minority _Taal_ ~ _Tahl_.  This also applies to all other publishers, 
needing to change all instances of predominant _Tall_ to _Taal_ ~ _Tahl_ in 
hitherto published literature.  And why they are at it, they had also better 
change all instances of derived _tellen_ 'to count', _Tell_ 'account', 
_vertellen_ 'to account', 'to tell', to *_tählen_ and *_vertählen_ to make 
them conform to _Tahl_, also to German _Zahl_, _zählen_ and _erzählen_. 
(Yes, it *is* long on _(be)talen_ <(be)tahlen> 'to pay', and it's the same 
in Dutch: _(ge)tal_ -> _(ge)tallen_, _tellen_, _betalen_.)

Old Saxon:
tal (> tal <Tall>) 'number', 'line', 'row' (OLF ahtinga)
tala (> tel(le) <Tell>) 'sum' > 'account'
talôn (> tellen) 'to count', 'to calculate'
talunga (> MS talling ~ talling) 'payment'
(no occurrence of *_tâl_)
Old Saxon seems to have no cognate of _(be)talen_ 'to pay'.  Instead it uses 
_buggian_ ~ _buggean_, Old Low Franconian _fargeldan_.

Examples of occurrences of _Tall_:

"He wuß dat natürli eben so genau as Adam, un tell dat an de Fingern na: 
Veer Jahr! Un denn fung he en nie TALL an de bet æwer de linker Hand weg 
ging." (Dithmarschen, Klaus Groth, 
http://www.wesselhoeft.net/ImFaehrhaus/int_faehrhus.htm)

"Miene Prognose weer üm un bi sösstig Perzent. Aver dat weer dat Gegendeel, 
de TALL vun`e Lüüd, de to Huus blieven sünd!" 
(http://www.literadies.de/album-stammtisch3.htm)

"In de nieden Bundslänner un in’t Saarland weer de TALL vun Lüüd, de dat 
Internett bruken doot, an’ sietsten, in’t Middelfeld worrn Rheinland-Pfalz 
un Nordrhein-Westfalen liggen, de annern Länner legen mehr an’t Böverenn. 
„De Oosten vun Düütschland liggt op’e Güntsiet vun’e digitole Grööv." 
(_Dithmarscher Landeszeitung_, 
http://www.dithmarschenforum.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=13&t=000009&go=older)

"Excel is en Tabellenkalkulaschoonsprogramm. Dat bedüüd, dat kann mit TALLEN 
reken, de Se
in en Tabell intippt. Mennig Problemen ut’n Alldag, de mit Tallen to doon 
hebbt, laat sik mit
Excel lösen – faken ganz komodig." 
(http://www.plattpartu.de/comp/download/excel/excel_grundweten.pdf)

"Jümmer snacken un lachen, as wenn der keen TALL un keen Enn' weer." 
(Dithmarschen, Klaus Groth, 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=14&url=http%3A//fuchur.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de/lit/gb_text.php%3Fautor%3DGroth%26werk%3DQuickborn&ei=gMwdQ62hIMXsYPX-iMYL)

"De TALL vun de öllern Minschen in uns Sellschop ward jümmer grötter." 
(Schleswig-Holstein, 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A//www.spd-schleswig-holstein.de/lv/partei/wahlen/programm/prg_platt.html&ei=KM0dQ7HJL522YJOr_IkL)

"De Bremer Entsorgungs-Bedrieven hebbt 'n Barg mehr Geld verdeent, dorför 
schrievt de Kinnergoorns rode TALLEN." (Bremen, 
http://www.radiobremen.de/bremeneins/platt/news/)

"Een Slagboom mit de preuschen Farben; un eem Schild mit'n swarten Adeler un 
de Upschrift "Zollamt" makten jeden Bremer dat klar, dat hier, up guntsied 
de Wummebrugge, siene Greechtsame to Enne weern, datt he sick ton swaren 
Staatsverbräker, ton Smuggeler makte, wenn he mit eene Zigarrn mehr in'r 
Taschen, as de vorgeschräben TALL, hier öber de Grenze gung." (Bremen, 
http://www.breplatt.uni-bremen.de/kapitel6.html)

"Dat hölt den ni so op`t Krüz un de Tüten, negen an de TALL, weern in een 
goode Stünn vull." 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=32&url=http%3A//www.alte-kremper-stadtgilde.de/hauptmann.html&ei=ZM8dQ-v3C6e4YKTI9JQL)

"In dat Blatt steiht, dat lett allens daarnah, as wenn den 
EU-Finanzministerraat tokamen Dingsdag woll bloots över de TALLEN vun'n 
düütschen Bunnshuusholt diskereern warrt." 
(http://www.daf.uni-mainz.de/landeskunde/2002_1/Dialekt/ue3.htm)

"TALLEN. Mathematik. Een, twee, dree ... bet hunnert tellen." 
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=14&url=http%3A//lehrplan.lernnetz.de/intranet1/links/materials/1108713333.pdf&ei=PNwdQ7-mKoeWYNL4hOYK)
"Nummernwettloop mit Tallen" (Lübeck, 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//lehrplan.lernnetz.de/intranet1/links/materials/1108713333.pdf&ei=3NodQ8OgLM76YLqZvPwL)

"...  dat ik de TALLEN weer ut de Kopp kreeg un inslapen kunn." (Eastern 
Friesland, http://www.plattdeutsche-geschichten.de/geschi3.html)

"TALLEN - How to count in plattdeutsch" (Hamburg, 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A//www.plattmaster.de/gramm1.htm&ei=g9sdQ6XLG4aEYaW9hIoM)

"Dat sünd op jeden Fall de offiziellen TALLEN." (Hamburg, 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//www1.ndr.de/cgi-bin/norichten&ei=GdEdQ-L8M7KYYPjRxfEK)

"Wat TALLEN so vertellt" (Hamburg, Günter Harte, _Hamburger Abendblatt_, 
http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2005/06/14/447261.html)

"Plattdüütsch Grammatik is so´n Saak! Hier finden Sie eine ausführliche 
plattdeutsche Grammatik von "TALLEN" bis "Een un MehrTALL" mit vielen 
Tabellen, Beispielen und sogar englischen Übersetzungen." (Hamburg, 
http://www.hamburger-bildungsserver.de/welcome.phtml?unten=/faecher/niederdeutsch/unterricht/)

"Un wieldess ick de Reknungen vun 1996 un 1997 nabucht heff, hier nu de 
TALLEN: ..." (Hamburg,  www.fehrsgilde.de/blaetter/0299.html)

"Uns Katten, veer an de TALL, kiekt liekso niep vun de Finsterbank ut to as 
wi." (Altes Land, Clara Kramer-Freudenthal, 
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/sneet.htm)

"Noch steiht de TALL vun de Doden nich fast."  (Altes Land, Clara 
Kramer-Freudenthal, http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/lawien.htm)

"Veer an de TALL sünd dat." (Altes Land, Clara Kramer-Freudenthal, 
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/katten.htm)

And there are thousands more.

> 'Dat kann ick 'ne bör'n' = 'Ich kann es nicht (er-)tragen, schleppen';
> 'Lüch mol dien Fout opp' = 'Heb' mal deinen Fuß hoch';
> 'Dreeg dennen Sack mol oppen Kournböö'm' = 'Trage den Sack mal auf den
> Kornboden'.

None of those have anything to do with _upbören_, just as _heben_ is not the 
same as _aufheben_, for instance.  They denote 'bear' and 'carry', and _lüch 
... op_ may well be _böör ... up_ in other dialects.

Middle Saxon (e.g.):
1355: "dat mögen wy ... upbören ... ohne meldinge der ... vryheit"

Modern Low Saxon (e.g.):
" upbören - aufheben" (Plattdütsch for you, 
http://www.waren-an-der-mueritz.de/plattduetsch.htm)

> I don't know this variation

Which ought not be taken as meaning that it doesn't exist or that its use is 
wrong and "Patent."

When we deal with a language as a whole we need to look around, need be 
willing to accommodate dialectical variety rather than make pronouncements 
about right and wrong on the basis of our own respective little dialects or 
specific dialects we are familiar with.  A myopic, prescriptive approach is 
bad enough for a single variety, leave alone for an entire language. 
Besides, a bit of research is advisable before accusing people of 
"patenting."  Sure, I've been guilty of the same, but at least I try to keep 
an open mind and to check around, and I'm certainly willing to mend my ways.

"Fair go!" as we say in Australia.

The Institute for Sorbian Language and various Sorbian periodicals suggest 
Sorbian neologisms all the time, just to keep the language viable in all 
walks of life.  Some neologisms are adopted, others rejected and eventually 
replaced.  At least there are dialogues and activities instead of perpetual 
naysaying and inertia.  And Sorbian is indeed quite viable and adaptable, 
can be used in all walks of life, looking to both dominant German and 
neighboring Czech and Polish for "inspiration," borrows some words as well 
as creates new ones using its own resources.  *All* viable languages do so. 
People that prevent or stifle this process thus hamper this development, 
consequently disable the language and condemn it to death -- while at the 
same time professing they do so for the sake of the language.

Heiko:

> wie verhält es sich mit den Wörtern "ganz" und "heel". Wie weit sind diese
> verbreitet? Gibt es dazwischen einen speziellen Unterschied, den ich nicht
> kenne? (So wie zwischen Klöör und Farv?)
>
> Heißt es "de hele Week" oder "de ganze Week".

Apparently both are "correct."  _Ganz_ predominates in some areas (e.g., 
around the Lower Elbe and in the eastern regions, while _heel_ (_heyl_) 
predominates elsewhere.  So it used to be and still largely is regional and 
dialectical.  However, most people understand both, and as people move and 
read literature in other dialects the two have begun to mingle.  Many people 
use both, myself included.  Also, I use idioms such as _ganz un gaar_ and 
_heel un deel_, both meaning 'altogether', 'totally', etc.  Similarly 
_tousamen_ (_tosamen_) and _touhoup_ (_tohoop_) for 'together'.  I use both, 
and I have noticed other people doing the same.  Most of the time they mean 
the same.  I perceive a difference in certain contexts; e.g., _wy dout dat 
tousamen_ 'we('ll) do it together', but _wy kaamt touhoup_ 'we come 
together' (with a trace of _houp_ 'heap', German _Haufe(n)_, i.e., "gather 
in a heap").  However, most people probably don't make this difference. 
Similar are _jeyd_ and _elk_ 'each', 'every'.  Originally, there were 
dialectally distributed, but you find them more and more mixed, much to the 
consternation of the purists that for instance bombard Radio Bremen with 
protest calls, accusing them of the unspeakable crime of mixing dialects. 
Ach, du liebe Güte!

Now on to Gary's project of names of months:

Leslie had kindly shared to traditional Czech names of months.

> Leden - icy month (led = ice)
> Únor - month of ice-floes plunging (nořit se = plunge)
> Březen - month of pregnancy (many animal females are pregnant) (březí =
pregnant)
> Duben - month of oak leaves growing (dub = oak)
> Květen - blooming month (květ = bloom, flower)
> Červen - month of cherries turning red (červený = red)
> Červenec - month of fruit and grain ripening (červený = red)
> Srpen - harvest month (srp = sickle)
> Září - month of leaves turning (zářit = shine)
> Říjen - month of deer belling (říjet = bell, rut)
> Listopad - month of falling leaves (list = leaf, padat = fall)
> Prosinec - month of hog-killing (originally prasinec, prase = hog)

Below are the equivalents in West Slavonic languages of Germany and 
neighboring Poland.  Please compare them, also with the Germanic varieties 
already posted:

Draveno-Polabian (extinct):

J: lede môn "ice month"
F: rüzac "(month of) rose/flower"
M: zürmôn (< *zor-) ?
A: choide môn (< *chydy) ?
M: laiste môn "leaf month"
J: pątjuste môn "month Pentecost"
J: zeminik "earth (month)"?
A: haimôn < LS _haymaand_ 'hay month'?
S: jisinmôn "autumn month"
O: wainja môn "month of wine "
N: zaima môn "month of cold/winter"
D: trübne môn (< *trobny?)

_Môn_ 'month' is a Low Saxon loan (_maan(d)_).

Polish:
[The month's names are derived from "< ..."]

J: styczen (< "edge"?)

F: luty < "ice", "freezing"
M: pochód, postęp < "headway", "progress"
A: kwiecień < "blossoming"
M: kwiat < "flower"
J: czerwiec < "red"
J: lipiec < "lime-/lindentree"
A: sierpień < "sickle"
S: wrzesień (< "scream"?)
O: październik (< ?)
N: listopad < "leaves falling"
D: grudzień (< "year's end"?)

Kashubian (Eastern Pomeranian):
[The month's names are derived from "< ..."]

J: stëcznik (< "edge"?)
F: gromicznik < "breeding"
M: strumiannik < "brook," "stream"
A: łżëkwiôt < "blossoming"
M: môj < L _maius_, G _Mai_?
J: czerwińc < "red"
J: lëpińc < "lime-/lindentree"
A: zélnik < "green"
S: séwnik (< "gray"?)
O: rujan < "rut"
N: smùtan < "sorrow"
D: gòdnik (< "year's end"?)

And as a non-contact language: Upper Sorbian (a West Slavonic language still 
alive in Eastern Germany):

Upper Sorbian:
[The month's names are derived from "< ..."]

J: wulki róžk < "great horn/corner"
F: mały róžk < "small horn/corner"
M: nalětnik < "approaching warm season/summer"
A: jutrownik < "Easter (< morning)"
M: róžownik < "(rose >) flower"
J: smažnik < "roasting"?
J: pražnik < "roasting/toasting"?
A: žnjenc < "harvest(er)"
S: požnjenc, michałski měsac < "reaper," "harvester,"
    "Michael's month"
O: winowc < "grapevine"
N: nazymnik, listopad < "autumn", "leaves fall"
D: hodownik < "(year's end >) Christmas"

I can't get my hands on the equivalents in Lower Sorbian, which has/had a 
bit of contact with southeastern Low Saxon.  Anyone else?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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