LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.09.13 (06) [E]

Tue Sep 13 20:37:58 UTC 2005

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2005.09.13 (03) [E]

Many thanks for the feedback everyone.  In Germany last year I saw a TV 
comedy show where they were giving "Teach yourself Bavarian" lessons.  I 
found it quite funny, but I couldn't help wondering if the Bavarians did!

Paul

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From: Dan Prohaska <danielprohaska at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Language varieties

Reinhard schreyf:
"(In general, I can follow a fluent conversation in Dutch, Flemish,
Afrikaans, Frisian and Pennsylvania German far better than one in most Swiss
German dialects, certainly those of the Upper and Uppermost groups.)"

Reinhard,
When I got here I was surprised how little I understood, but it "clicked"
after a few days. It's really just a question of getting used to. The
hardest part is where the vocabulary differences. There is quite a
perceptible age gap with older people using their own vocabulary and the
younger ones "Swissify" a largely standard German vocabulary.

"Because of this awareness, and perhaps because of a bit of pride and that
usually strong Swiss sense of autonomy, Swiss German tends to be treated as
a language in its own right."

You would think so, wouldn't you? There is a strong sense of being apart
from both Austria and Germany, not to mention the rest of Europe and the
world as a whole, however this feeling is like a Russian Matushka figure,
within the big one there is an identical smaller one and in the smaller one
yet another identical even smaller one and so on, meaning that the Swiss
also have a very local sense of identification. They can keep together
against the outsiders, but once you're inside the local identities take
over. That is especially true of the dialects. They are very diverse and
people are very aware of these differences. Dialect speakers from different
areas even ridicule each other's speech although it's not really that
different. This is exactly what you will hear from Swiss when you ask them
about making Swiss German a language in its own right, with a standard
spelling system etc.

"In fact, I am surprised they have not begun to present news programs and
the  like in Swiss German."

But they have. The local TV stations, and just about every Kanton has its
own, present national and international news in dialect. Only on the
national TV channels is the evening news in Standard German.

"If Swiss German ever comes to be officially recognized as a separate
language, this would put the Alemannic dialects of Germany and Austria into
a strange position, especially the Upper Alemannic dialects of Vorarlberg
(Austria) and the southern parts of the Black Forest (Germany).  Should they

be parts of that or remain officially dialects of German?  What about
Swabian and Low Alemannic dialects that link with "proper" German (including

also Colonial German, _Alemán Coloneiro_, of Venezuela), given that Basel
German is Low Alemannic also?
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron"

That would give more minority languages to take care of, he? Actually,
despite the dialects neighbouring Switzerland to be very similar, the
linguistic break is felt to be quite sharp. Even people in neighbouring
communities can tell when someone's dialect is the one just across the
border. Also, since the sociolinguistic make-up of dialect speech is so
different in Switzerland there is a clean break between speaking Swiss
German and Hochdeutsch whereas in the adjacent regions the range from
Standard German to dialect is a little more gradual according to situations,
persons, age groups etc.

Back to the lowlands, sorry, couldn't resist...

Dan

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot, Dan.

> There is quite a
> perceptible age gap with older people using their own vocabulary and the
> younger ones "Swissify" a largely standard German vocabulary.

This is also what I have noticed, and I've assumed that those are signs of 
Germanization or Helveticization (how's that?), depending on your angle. 
It's older people's speech I have particular problems with, in great part 
for lexical and idiomatic reasons.

> Back to the lowlands, sorry, couldn't resist...

That's quite all right.  Although not Lowlandic, it was relevant with regard 
to language attitude, maintenance and policies.

Folks, those of you who have never listened to Swiss German and other 
Alemannic varieties might want to check out this archive of sound files:
English: http://www.dialekt.ch/english.htm
German: http://www.dialekt.ch/

http://www.dialekt.ch/mp3/nordwest/Bollag_Grussenheim.htm is spposed to be 
one of those Alsatian "Yiddish" varieties, supposedly Western Yiddish.  I 
rather think it is Alsatian Alemannic with Yiddish influences/loans.

By the way, most of those Alemannic dialects are phonologically very archaic 
as far as the history of "German" is concerned.

All types of "German" varieties (including Low Saxon and Frisian ones, as 
well as Pennsylvania German, Winnipeg Plautdietsch and Transylvanian 
"Saxon") can be listened to here: 
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/%7Enaeser/dial-aud.htm

For tables 1 and 2, the sample sentence is "You can't yet drink a (whole) 
bottle of wine (by yourself). You've got to grow a bit more and get older."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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