LL-L "Morphology" 2005.09.28 (04) [A/E]
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.09.27 (03) [E]
Ron wrote:
> My point is that once in a while a language develops a seemingly "odd"
word,
> like this measure word. However, if you think about it, it isn't really
so
> weird, and you wonder why other languages don't have equivalents of it.
In
> this case, two cupped hands held together to receive a larger quantity
than
> a handful seems rather common. No doubt we have all encountered it many,
> many times in our lives, for instance held under a spigot or faucet (tap)
to
> receive water for drinking or rinsing washing, or held out to catch as
much
> candy, berries or coins as possible ...
But that's exactly what a German "Handvoll" is, no? Despite its name, it's
actually two cupped hands full - or at least that's how I've always heard it
used.
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology
Hi, Gabriele!
> But that's exactly what a German "Handvoll" is, no? Despite its name, it's
> actually two cupped hands full
Not in *my* book, at least not by default.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.09.27 (03) [E]
Dear Gabriele & Ron,
Subject: LL-L "Morphology"
> Ron wrote:
>> In Low Saxon, for instance, there is the measure word _göpsch_ denoting
> the
>> amount of something (e.g., water or berries) that fits into two cupped
> hands
>> held together. That would be an example of a special measure. I have
> never
>> come across an equivalent in another language.
Slightly off the subject: Is this 'göpsch' related to our 'gaps' -
alternative 'gap' = to grab, pinch, steal, filch, snitch or sieze?
(Kritzinger, Steyn, Schoonees & Cronjé); wegraap, steel, handvol (Boshoff en
Nienaber). Bestaan daar enige verwantskap met Afr. 'gaap' = yawn, gape;
ginnegaap = natter, gossip?
Groetnis,
Mark
----------
From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.09.26 (10) [E]
In Drenthe Low Saxon "göpse" means the same, a double handful, according
to my Drents Zakwoordenboek, although I have never heard of it or used it
myself...
Regards
Ingmar
In Drenthe Low Saxon "gpse" means the same, a double handful, according
to my Drents Zakwoordenboek, although I have never heard of it or used it
myself...
Regards
Ingmar
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Morphology
>
> In Low Saxon, for instance, there is the measure word _gpsch_ denoting
the
>amount of something (e.g., water or berries) that fits into two cupped
hands
>held together. That would be an example of a special measure. I have
never
>come across an equivalent in another language.
>
>Here's a brief explanation of what our Ben is talking about. (I did an
>honors thesis on the Chinese case.) Numerous East and Southeast Asian
>languages (not belonging to a single genealogically related group) have,
in
>addition to group, part or measure words (e.g., "*flock* of
birds," "*slice*
>of bread," "*gaggle* of geese," "*pinch* of salt," "*tons* of hay,"
>"*handful* of marbles") "measure words" or "classifyers" or "counters" for
>single objects. In fact, in languages such as the Chinese ones (at least
in
>the modern ones) you can not have a numeral before a noun without having
one
>of these intervening words. They are often called, "numeral classifiers,"
>but that is a misnomer in Modern Chinese, since these words are also
>required after demonstrative pronouns. For instance, in Mandarin:
>
>一群鳥 yi QUN niao "one FLOCK bird"
> a/one flock of birds
>這群鳥 zhe QUN niao "this FLOCK bird"
> this flock of birds
>一隻鳥 yi ZHI niao "one ZHI bird" [= one of a pair, single]*
> a/one bird
>這隻鳥 zhe ZHI niao "this ZHI bird" [= one of a pair, single]
> this bird
>那雙鳥 na SHUANG niao "that SHUANG niao" [= pair]
> that pair of birds
>
>三部 san BU che "three BU vehicle" [= part, division]
> three cars
>那部 na BU che "that BU vehicle" [= part, division]
> those cars
>or
>三台 san TAI che "three TAI vehicle" [= platform]
> three cars
>那台 na TAI che "that TAI vehicle" [= platform]
> those cars
>or
>三輛 san LIANG che "three LIANG vehicle" [= vehicle]
> three cars
>那輛 na LIANG che "that LIANG vehicle" [= vehicle]
> those cars
>
>三 san DUI che "three DUI vehicle" [= group, team, fleet]
> three fleets of cars
>
>五本書 wu BEN shu "five BEN book" [= root, origin, source, basis]
> five books
>哪本書 na BEN shu "which BEN book" [= root, origin, source, basis]
> which books?
>五 書 wu CE shu "five CE book" [= volume (of a set)]
> five volumes (of a book)
>五 書 wu ZHANG shu "five ZHANG book" [= section, chapter]
> five chapters (of a book)
>五套書 wu TAO shu "five TAO book" [= set, suit, suite]
> five sets of books
>
>The only thing that is really different from "our" languages is the use of
>such words with singular forms, and also that there are numerous such
words
>going with specific nouns. This makes it really complex. However, some
of
>the more obscure ones are known by most people only passively at best.
>Furthermore, if in doubt you can always use the default counter 個 ge
where
>no part or group needs to be indicated. Most Chinese speakers these days
do
>not show off the wealth of classifiers/counters they know.
>
>* An interesting aside regarding these types of words is that some of them
>permit cultural glimpses. For instance 隻 _zhi_ for "counting" individual
>birds is derived from the original meaning "one of a pair/couple," as
>opposed to 雙 _shuang_ 'pair', 'couple'. The characters contain the
>character for 'bird', _zhi_ one and _shuang_ two_, and that is the only
>difference between them. In Chinese oral and written literature, birds
are
>associated with the idea of 'pair', or 'mating', always
with 'togetherness',
>and the metaphor of a single bird is one of loneliness and separation,
e.g.,
>a single gull connotes a lonely traveling or banished person.
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: Peter Snepvangers <snepvangers at optushome.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2005.09.26 (10) [E]
From: Ben J. Bloomgren <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2005.09.26 (08) [E/LS/German]
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology
Ben,
This topic of "classifiers" (or "measure words" or "counters") concerns the
area of the Lowlands just barely, though it would be interesting to see if
there are specific ones in our area.
In Low Saxon, for instance, there is the measure word _göpsch_ denoting the
amount of something (e.g., water or berries) that fits into two cupped hands
held together. That would be an example of a special measure. I have never
come across an equivalent in another language.
Hello Ben and Ron,
When I was a kid here in Australia we used to buy a bubble gum called
"Gobschmackers". You had to puff your cheeks out and then cupped your hands
and pushed your cheeks in to inflate the gum into as big a ballon as you
could manage. We also colloquially referred to amounts of berries, cookies
etc as "a gob full" which is how much you could push in your mouth. I guess
it isn't really related to gopsch but do you know where the word gob
originated? Is it used in the UK at all?
Cheers
Peter Snepvangers
snepvangers at optushome.com.au
----------
From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L Morphology" 2005.09.27 (03) [E]
Hi all,
Well, is that not the same type of thing as in:
skottel (hoeveelheid meel)
skeppie (ditto sand)
skoot/skeut (ditto neutmuskaat)
knippie (ditto sout)
mespunt (ditto naeltjies)
which simply changed morphologically?
Elsie Zinsser
Gabriele:
> Except for German "Handvoll", of course...
Ron:
g?psch from *_gebsch_.
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