LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.12 (04) [E]

Wed Apr 12 19:45:58 UTC 2006

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12 April 2006 * Volume 04
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From: Ben J. Bloomgren <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.12 (03) [E]

I rather wonder if this Scheria has anything to do with those sheer coastal
precipes (Low Saxon _schaar_, e.g., on the Baltic See coast) and/or those
rocky islands or "cut-off" rocks or cliffs along the Baltic Sea coast (e.g.,
Swedish _skär_, Norwegian _skjer_, Danish _skær_, Old Norse _sker_ > English
"skerry," Gaelic _sgeir_, cf. Dutch _scheer_).  This is related to English
"sheer" ('to rise/drop steeply', 'rising/dropping steeply') and German
_Schere_ (scissors), thus with the sense of "cut."

Skerry? I've never seen that spelling. Is it archaic or something?
Ben

----------

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.12 (03) [E]

Ron:
"So that name [i.e. Schier(-monnikoog)] would probably not have existed in
those ancient times."

First of all, who says that Homer's Odyssee is based on real historical
facts - or that its details, e.g. geographical names in very remote areas -
from a Greek point of view - are?
Second, IF it would, who says that Germanic peoples were dwelling in this
area already in those ancient times...?

Groets
Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Interesting, Ingmar.
>
>But I was given the impression (by the small etymologicl dictionary you
>kindly sent me) that Schiermonnikoog used to mean something like "Gray
>Monks' Island" (_schier+monnik+oog_), where _schier_ referred tp "light
>color," in this case light gray.  I believe that those are Benedictin
monks.
>So that name would probably not have existed in those ancient times.
>
>I rather wonder if this Scheria has anything to do with those sheer
coastal
>precipes (Low Saxon _schaar_, e.g., on the Baltic See coast) and/or those
>rocky islands or "cut-off" rocks or cliffs along the Baltic Sea coast
(e.g.,
>Swedish _skÃ¤r_, Norwegian _skjer_, Danish _skÃ¦r_, Old Norse _sker_ >
English
>"skerry," Gaelic _sgeir_, cf. Dutch _scheer_).  This is related to English
>"sheer" ('to rise/drop steeply', 'rising/dropping steeply') and German
>_Schere_ (scissors), thus with the sense of "cut."
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

>From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
>Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.04.11 (07) [E]
>
>I don't realy know, but doesn't the name <<Scheria>> remind you a lot at
><<Schier>>, the colloquial name for the Wadden Sea island Schiermonnikoog,
>just North of Groningen? So more or less in the same area as Helgoland...
>
>Groets
>Ingmar
>
>>From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>:
>>Heligoland!
>>That reminds me of a private project that I am working on. As a keen
>reader
>>on aristocratic cultures I am looking for all the traditional codes and
>>beliefs that the personages adhere to in Homer's Odyssey. Anyway, later
>>sources tell me that several scholars believe the island of the
>Phaeaecians,
>>Scheria, to be Heligoland. When you read about the vegetation and the
>>geographic & geophysical construction of Scheria in the Odyssey, you
>wonder
>>how people were led to believe this. Could anyone tell us more about
this?

----------

From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.12 (03) [E]

Dear Ingmar,

Thanks for the solutions!
But as Reinhard correctly mentions, 'Schiermonnikoog' is the Dutch 
translation of Friesian 'Skiermuontseach', denoting 'The island of the grey 
monks'; i.e. Cistercian monks.
In Dutch we know the word _schier_, which means 'grey, blue'. Oldnorse has 
_skoerr_, 'clear'.

Homer lived in the 8th Century b.C., so that is way too early for any form 
of Christianity to have entered our regions. And by the time the first 
Germanic tribes entered the Netherlands ald the flatlands, Homer had been 
dead for at least five centuries.

'Schier' or sciri is also unlikely to be a pre-Germanic substrate word, 
since it has cognates with other Indo European language families.

Looking at the shape of Heligoland, its 'sheerness' or sharpness of coastal 
features could lead us to a place named 'Scheria', but then again, the 
Germanic tribes hadn't even entered Western Europe.

Best regards,

Marcel.

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2006.04.12 (01) [E]

Dear Ingmar, Ron:

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.04.11 (09) [E]

Ingmar wrote:
> This is the same situation that is still going on in many "Third World"
> countries: I know a lot of girls and young women, especially from Africa,
> who told me exactly the same... Groets, Ingmar

Ron wrote:
>My assumption is that names for "girl" came to be quasi-euphemisms for
>"(female) servant."  Besides, the two tended to be the same in most
> medieval and earlier communities.  With the exception of well-protected
> upper-class girls, all girls were used as unpaid or cheap labor, first in
> their homes, then often in other people's houses and finally in their
> parents-in-law's houses until they reached matronhood and replaced the
> previous head matrons...

>In the local Eastphalian Low Saxon dialect, Magdeburg (the capital of
>Saxony-Anhalt, in formerly Slavonic-speaking territory) is called
>_Maydeborg_ (usually written <Meideborch>) ["ma:\IdebO:IC].
>
>My feeling is that Meideborch/Magdeburg relates to young women.  It's
oldest
>known name (804 CE) is _Magadoburg_.
>
>However, I don't know the story behind this, and I sure wish I did.
Anyone?

Mark: I'm only guessing, but was it a Munster? If it was a cathedral town
was the Cathedral dedicated to the Virgin Mary?

Yrs,
Mark

PS Good String...

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

> Mark: I'm only guessing, but was it a Munster? If it was a cathedral town
> was the Cathedral dedicated to the Virgin Mary?

Good thought there, Mark!  Why didn't *I* make that connection?  (Duh!)  No 
wonder the Kahuna insisted on adding you to the illustrious circle of 
dignitaries
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/treasures/kahuna.htm).

Magdeburg does indeed have a cathedral, built between 1209 and 1520.  It is 
devoted to two saints: St. Maurice (of Thebes, Egypt, ?-290) and St. 
Catherine of Alexandria (Egypt, 1595-1596).

Marcel, I've heard of claims that  Σχερία (Scheria, Skhería, a.k.a. 
Phaeacia) of the Odyssey is assumed to be Atlantis or Corfu, never 
Heligoland.  BTW, Φαίακες (Phaeacians) is derived from the word φαιός 
(phaiόs) 'dark-skinned'.  Doesn't sound like Heligoland to me.  Besides, 
most of today's cut-off rock walls of Heligoland are due to post-war British 
bombing, because the UK wanted to destroy the island to prevent that the 
island ever again serve as a German naval outpost.

Of course, we have no idea what sort of people lived along the North Sea 
coast before the arrival of Germanic tribes.  Did Celts live that far north?

Ben:

> Skerry? I've never seen that spelling. Is it archaic or something?

Not that I know, just rarely used in most parts.  It's just used in Britain, 
I guess.  Perhaps the word didn't make it across the Atlantic.  The closest 
thing that North America has are some formations on the Canadian East Coast 
and in Northern New England.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron 

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