LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.18 (05) [D/E]

Tue Apr 18 22:01:46 UTC 2006

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18 April 2006 * Volume 05
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.14 (09) [E]

I wonder if Djoha etc. is some reverse form (metathese)of Hodja.

Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
>Perhaps originally taken from Persian traditions, Turkic traditions from
>Eastern Europe to China ,  also (usually Moslem) traditions in the
Balkans,
>have the notorious Nasreddin Hoca (= Hodja), known as Afandi in Uzbek and
>Äpendi (Efendi) in Uyghur tradition in the far east (and now famous
through
>cartoons about 阿凡提  Afandi in China proper).  The Giuf  of Italy,
especially
>of Sicily, the Turlulè of Trient, the Giucca of Toscany, the Giaffah of
>Sardinia and the Giuc  of Albania are supposed to be linked, probably
>derived from  the Djeha of Morocco and Algeria and the Goha of Egypt, and
>these appear to be related to the Turkic tradition.

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2006.04.14 (09) [E]

Re " Klapperstorch/Ooievaar "
Nice story Ron. Het doet me denken aan "De Nieuwe Kleren van de Keizer"
Maar alle gekheid op een stokje.... Afgelopen zomer waren mijn zus en ik op 
Vancouver Island want ze wou zo graag wat van " indiaanse cultuur " zien.
De verhalen rond Thunderbird waren erg interessant. Nog veel interessanter 
is dat Thunderbird niet alleen bij de Kwakkiutles aan de Westkust van Canada 
en ook by de Canadese Ojibway en de Micmac cultuur uit Maine bekend is, maar 
dat er rotstekeningen zijn in Noordelijk Noorwegen van zo'n zelfde 
gestileerde enorme vogel die mensen kan vervoeren. Deze rotstekeningen 
dateren van zo'n 10.000 jaar geleden heb ik me laten vertellen. In Anatolia 
komen dergelijke tekeningen ook voor bij heel oude openlucht begraafplaatsen 
waar de vogels de lijken schoonpikten voordat ze begraven werden. Die 
dateren van zo'n 15.000 jaar geleden. Er is echt niets nieuws onder de zon!
Ik hoop dat jullie Pasen net zo fantastisch was als het mijne. Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Ingmar:

> I wonder if Djoha etc. is some reverse form (metathese)of Hodja.

Interesting!  It never occured to me before.

Thanks for the bird theme, Jacqueline.  That's a biggie.  As far as I can 
tell, this is a universal theme.  I believe in the Lowlands it's the eagle 
and the stork that are remnants of it.  While the stork grew out of a 
fertility tradition, the eagle seems to be an ancient deity throughout 
Eurasia and probably carried from there to the Americas -- hence, it seems 
to be very, very ancient.  And and there's the fertility tradition of the 
rooster/chicken.

In traditional cultures of Central Asia and Siberia as well in the very 
closely resembling North American traditions you get glimpses of what the 
ancient, common tradition must have been like.  The eagle (in some areas 
changed to another type of bird), which may be represented by a single 
eagle's feather or by feather adornments, acts as liaison and transport 
between heaven and earth.  Once having reached a state of trance, the shaman 
(or his/her soul) is supposed to be transported to the beyond and to carry 
messages back and forth.  Also, in many such traditions this involves tall 
poles, representing the connection with heaven, oftentimes with feathers 
arrange at the top end.  (In some cultures this came to be mixed up with 
birds as fertility symbols, especially on top of poles, such as already 
described in the Old Oghuz Turkic dastan "Dede Qorqut," which goes back to 
at least the 9th century CE.)  I assume that our stork tradition grew out of 
that, as did our maypole traditions that originally required (and in many 
places still requires) a bird figure on top of the pole, usually a rooster.

In Eurasia, the ancient eagle cult (sometimes falcon cult, as in the 
Caucasus and Polynesia) led to eagles as symbols of state power, as can be 
seen in Old Roman emblems, also in the heraldic images of countries such as 
Austria, Germany, Poland, Romania, Russia, Armenia, Serbia, Mexico and the 
US,  to name but a few.  Furthermore, there are the Garuda traditions 
throughout South and Southeast Asia, apparently spread by Vedic or even 
pre-Vedic hinduism.  The Garuda (Sanskrit गरुड _garuḍa_, Thai ครุฑ _krut_, 
Burmese _ga-lon_, Chinese 迦樓羅 _Jialuolo_), a devinity that originally acted 
as the mount (वहनं _vahanaṃ_) of his master Vishnu (विष्ण _viṣṇu_).  Lots 
of folk myths have been developed from this (though you should assume that 
Vedic mythology grew from earlier folk mythology).  In ethnic (popular) 
Buddhism with pre-Buddhist substrates, Garuda are a species of angelic 
bird-like creatures that hunt the Naga (नाग), snakes with human attributes.

In indigenous North America, eagle cults are very widely spread, though in 
some areas they use ravens or mythological birds such as the Thunderbird you 
mentioned.  Interestingly, the Lakota, for instance, have both the Eagle and 
the Thunderbird (_Wakinyan_).  The cult is particularly strong here in the 
Pacific Northwest (e.g., Kwak'wala/Kawkiutl _Hohoq_, Nuuchanulth/Nootka 
_Kw-Uhnx-Wa_, Klallam _Č̕Ínəkʷaʔ_).  Again, the Thunderbird carries messages 
between spirits and sometimes between spirits and humans.  The Lakota 
(Sioux) tradition has it that the Thunderbird (_Wakinyan_) hunts and 
destroys reptilian monsters known as Unktehila.  (Compare this with what I 
mentioned about Indic Garuda destroying Naga.)

I am convinced that bird mythologies are so similar the world over (and I 
haven't even mentioned South America, Africa, Papua-New Guinea, Australia 
and Oceania, and the whole aspect of the phoenix) that you wonder if we are 
dealing with connections rather than with coincidences.

Digest that!
Reinhard/Ron 

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