LL-L "Literature" 2006.04.26 (08) [A/D/E]

Wed Apr 26 23:03:23 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 26 April 2006 * Volume 08
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From: "Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong" <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2006.04.26 (05) [E]

Re emphatics: Mark made the interesting remark that:

The trouble is that a negative statement often demands more than the
unemphatic statement that it 'negates', in the mind of the speaker, & we
don't seem to have a tonal device in our spoken language to carry it across,
as an exclamation mark might serve in written language. As I see it the
closing negative is a useful formalised grammatical device in spoken
Afrikaans for that emphesis, & for which we have no alternative resource
like a rising tone...

It is interesting that in Afrikaans a double negative is used.

Ron's contribution to this conversation that:

I can't help getting rid of this notion that what tended to happen in the
early development from Lowlandic varieties to Afrikaans was a preference for
using emphatics as default expressions...

is also interesting, because that is what happens all too often if you are
trying to make somebody to understand you when he/she does not understand
your language. But what makes it very interesting to me is that Dutch does
not have an emphatic mode like English, but uses idiomatic ploys. Therefore
"I do hope you understand me" translates to "Ik hoop echt dat je me
begrijpt". We also very often start our sentences with the part of speech
that we think is the most important; f.i. "Blijven mag je, maar ik kook niet
meer voor je" (I'll allow you to stay, but will not cook for you any
longer). To rectify a negative statement we use the words "toch" and "wel"
both with a meaning of "yet or still". "Ik houd niet van spruitjes, maar zij
houdt er wel van" (I do not like brusselssprouts, but she does). Hij moest
thuisblijven, maar is toch uitgegaan. (He had to stay home but did sneak
out). "Hoewel hij over het algemeen niet van klassieke muziek houdt,
luistert hij toch wel graag naar Mozart" (Although he does not enjoy
classical music in general, he likes to listen to Mozart). Of these three
expressions (and there are others) "toch" is stronger than "wel". but the
combination "toch wel" is weaker than each of the others individually!

Maybe it is simpler to use double negatives than to have to learn the subtle
differences of the idiomatic solutions.

No wonder translation engines do not work! Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Under "Literature" I wrote regarding suspected archaic fragments in
Afrikaans elevated styles:

> Af en toe ontdek of onthou ek fragmente van ou-modieus, letterkundig
> taalgebruik in ouer Afrikaanse gedigte en liedjies.  Ek vermoed dat baie
> van hulle vir die ontwil van ritme gekies word (veral in vertalings van
> gedigte en liedjies), alhoewel 'n voorkeur vir die "hoÃ«" letterkundige
> styl in verlede tye moontlik ook 'n rol het gespeel.  Jammer onthou ek in
> hierdie oomblik geen voorbeeld nie ... ;-)

Little bits and piece of memories from decades ago are coming back to me,
such as the Afrikaans translation of the German song _Sah ein Knab ein
RÃ¶slein stehn_ (or _HeidenrÃ¶slein_, by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe; see
e.g.
http://www.herbert-fritz.de/volksliedertext/sah_ein_knab_ein_roeslein_stehn.html).

I can't find the Afrikaans translation on the web.  It's somewhere buried
in a book in California.  But I do now remember (hopefully correctly) a
few fragments, at least two examples of what I mean by archaisms (in
caps), probably inspired by the original + Dutch:

   'n Knapie sie 'n rosie staan,
   Rosie op die heide,
   Morgenskoon, net opgegaan,
   Loop hy gou-gou daarop an,
   En hy was baie BLYDE. [= bly]
      Rosie, rosie, rosie rood,
      Rosie op die heide.
   <...>
   En ek sal dit nie LYDE." [= nie ly nie]
   <...>

German original:

   Sah ein Knab ein RÃ¶slein stehn,
   RÃ¶slein auf der Heiden,
   War so jung und morgenschÃ¶n,
   Lief er schnell, es nah zu sehn,
   Sah's mit vielen Freuden.
      RÃ¶slein, RÃ¶slein, RÃ¶slein rot,
      RÃ¶slein auf der Heiden.
   <...>
   Und ich wills nicht leiden."
   <...>

My free English translation:

   A lad once saw a growing rose,
   Sweet rose, heathland's treasure,
   Newly opened in morning glows.
   He rushed up near to look up close,
   Gazed with greatest pleasure.
      Rosie, Rosie, Rosie red,
      Sweet rose, heathlandâ€™s treasure.
   <...>
   And I shall not endure it!
   <...>

And my shot at a rough Dutch version:

   Zag een knaapje een roosje staan,
   Roosje op het heide,
   Morgenschoon, net opgegaan,
   Liep hij stevig daarop aan,
   En hij was zeer BLIJDE. [~ blij]
      Roosje, roosje, roosje rood,
      Roosje op het heide.
   <...>
   En ik zal het niet LIJDEN."
   <...>

I have a hunch that _heide_ ("heath(land)") is something of a Dutch loan
in Afrikaans, frozen in time as a European feature most South Africans
have never encountered themselves.  If sound shifts had occurred
predictably I'd have expected the Afrikaans forms *_hei_ or *_hy_.

So what we have in the Afrikaans translation snippets above is this:

* _Blyde_ instead of _bly_ 'glad', 'delighted' (cf.
  Dutch _blij_, archaic, poetic _blijde_, cf. Low Saxon
  _blyd'_ ~ _blyde_ <blied(e)>,;/D cf. "blithe")

* _Lyde_ instead of _ly_ 'to suffer', 'to endure' (cf.
  Dutch _lijden_, pronounced _lijde_in numerous dialects;
  cf. Low Saxon _lyden_ <lieden>)

* _En ek sal dit nie lyde_ instead of grammatical _En ek
  sal dit nie ly nie_ (with double negative).

Something to think about.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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