LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.06 (09) [E]

Tue Feb 7 04:22:01 UTC 2006

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 06 February 2006 * Volume 09
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From: Kevin Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.06 (08) [E]

>From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
>Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.06 (07) [E]
>
>Bell (whose wife was deaf) studied the family trees of people in
>Martha's Vineyard, but in the end we see him writing in his notes that
>he can't make any sense of it. We now know that the reason for this is
>that he didn't have the results of Mendeleevian genetics at his
>disposal.

I think you mean Mendelian, as in Gregor Mendel. Mendeleyev was the periodic 
table guy.

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.02.06 (04) [E]

Dear Gabrielle, Ingmar and Ron, May I add my two cents worth to your
conversation?
Gabrielle, I sympathize with your desire to "protect" the way of life and
speech of the people in your area. As you say:
" I would no sooner ask may older neighbors to allow me to drag their very
own language out into the open than I would ask them to appear on the Big
Brother show in a G-string. It is simply not done. I would rather see a
language like that die out in dignity and peace, than having it dragged out
into the open by avid linguists". and:
"If I found out that dogs could actually speak, I would keep it to myself,
because they very obviously do not want that fact widely known, even if they
trust me enough to tell me".

You feel that making a study of their language is a betrayal, but how do you
know that they feel this as a betrayal? If you could talk to dogs ( and who
says you can't) you could ask them whether they would like people to know
that they have a language. (and this is NOT tongue- in cheek)

Ingmar has it right when he says: "I have the experience that most people
are really delighted when they get some attention for their language or
dialect, especially if you show a little knowledge and sincere interest. For
me personnaly this has often been a good way to open contact."

Thirdly, I do not think that the linguists who are in the lowlands forum,
and amongst those certainly not Ron, would make fun of their language and
their culture. Yes, they would have "fun", like any scientist should have
fun in what they are doing, but not at the cost of these people.

You can ask them at least. And yes I know about the feeling that one can
have in approaching people you don't really know. A fear of interfering in
their lives, but the other part of that gesture is that you have to open
yourself and allow them in yours. That is not always easy.

Lastly, I have noticed that people in this forum are usually sure enough of
themselves, that they can make fun of what they are doing and what other
people in the forum are doing. I do not think that anybody is out to hurt
anybody else, but we should keep in mind that what is funny to one person is
not necessary funny to another.

Alright, Grandma has spoken. Fondest regards to you all. Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Jacqueline!

Thanks for approaching this with a good dose of compassion.  It did not 
sound the slightest bit "avial" or "anal" (fancifully derived from Latin 
_avia_ 'grandmother' and _anus_ 'old woman' [as opposed to _ānus_, with a 
long "a," for you know what]).

I think all of us have been making some points that are valid generally and 
some points that are valid within their own subjective perceptive 
frameworks.  As I said, certain things can not be argued about.

If I read Gabriele correctly, this is what worries her: unsolicited exposure 
in the form of exploitation and as a door to further outside interference. 
She seems to have so strong a sense of privacy about "small" languages that 
she equates spreading knowledge about them with public humiliation.  This 
equation is more than a stretch as far as I am concerned, but this is not to 
imply that I consider Gabriele's feelings invalid.  "Public humiliation" 
("G-string on an expoitive TV show") implies offending one's sense of 
dignity and decency, something that would appear inferior and/or ridiculous 
in the public eye.  I don't really link that with language.  Yes, I do know 
about linguistic inferiority complexes, have experienced and overcome them 
myself, and I have encountered them many a time when dealing with certain 
minority languages.  Being aware of them, I would never dream of "exposing" 
such languages in a sneaky way.  I've always approached speakers in the way 
of "How would you feel if we recorded this and showed it to others?" and I 
do take "no" for an answer.  I would expect no less from other people.

Furthermore, I can not reconcile treating certain languages as "public 
domain" with treating other languages as "private" and "secret."  This seems 
like a double standard to me.  In my thinking, all languages are 
intrinsically and inherently equal and are worthy of equal respect, 
attention and admiration (the latter particularly), no matter how the 
sociopolitical cookie happens to be crumbling.  I feel this about people as 
much as about their cultures, languages, literatures, art, and so forth.  If 
I made such a difference between two types of languages -- public versus 
private, which usually equals majority versus minority, or power versus 
powerless, and, by common inference, educated versus uneducated -- would 
this not in fact reenforce the perceived differences and status attributes? 
Would this not be tantamount to catering to both outsiders' disparaging of 
and speakers' embarrassment about "small" languages?

I now fully understand and completely agree with Sandy's argument, thanks to 
his "extreme" illustration.   This is not to say that I have ever favored or 
advocated that language planning be initiated and run by outsiders.  This 
would be the ultimate in arrogance.  On the other hand, if their advice is 
sought, I cannot see why they ought not be included, as long as they don't 
run the show and have the last word.  Also, I am not so sure that people, 
such as immigrants, ought to be excluded, people that use a given language 
predominantly, have adopted it in their family lives, raise their children 
with it, etc., but it happens not to be the language they were first taught. 
Completely excluding them seems rather arrogant as well, leave alone 
exclusionist (perhaps similar to naturalizing immigrants but not allowing 
them to vote).  This seems like a gray area to me, and there may be some 
sort of gradation related to degrees of involvement, commitment and 
investment.

Interesting ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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