LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.13 (10) [D/E]

Tue Feb 14 05:08:41 UTC 2006

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

   L O W L A N D S - L * 13 February 2006 * Volume 10
=======================================================================

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2006.02.13 (01) [D/E]

Roger Hondshoven zegt: Anderzijds is 'hemel' voor mij een heel gewoon
woord,.....

Hallo Roger, Ik geloof dat we het in grote trekken wel met elkaar eens zijn.
De kwestie wordt; hoe diep neem je de dampkring. Maar er is nog een ander
verschil,- en dat hangt misschien af van de manier waarop we opgevoed zijn.
Omdat hemel en hel niet termen waren die in ons dagelijks leven
voorkwamen,heb ik ze altijd als min of meer "onechte" begrippen
geaccepteerd. De hemel werd daardoor dus iets wat buiten de sfeer van het
gewone concrete leven viel. Het werd de oneindig verre plaats waar geen
lucht was en waar de zon "hing", de sterren "stonden" de planeten langs hun
banen "liepen" - alle drie heel on-aardse begrippen. God,- beschouwd als een
soort Sinterklaas voor grote mensen-, woonde er ook, hij zat op een hoge
troon in een groot paleis met een tuin die hij "Paradijs" noemde. Allemaal
heel vreemd, heel geheimzinnig en heel gexalteerd. Misschien had ik toen al
behoefte om de twee betekenissen van "heaven" en "sky" van elkaar te
scheiden. (zie Ron's "posting" van vandaag) Ik zou me kunnen indenken dat
als "hemel" een begrip van iedere dag (of op zijn minst van zondag) was, men
er anders over denken zou.
Sorry voor de metaphysica, Jacqueline

Ron is comparing the usage of "heaven", "sky" and "air" with the Dutch usage
of "hemel" en lucht.
>What I hear you say about _lucht_ in Dutch makes me understand that you can

>use it the way "sky" _et al._ are used, that _hemel_ in the sense of "sky"
>is of lesser use, may sound formal, literal or even archaic (?).  Is it
>perhaps similar to using English "heaven(s)" in the sense of "sky," which
>to me has a rather literal sound to it as well (e.g., "storm clouds
>hastening across the heavens")?

Ron, I went and looked it all up in "van Dale's Groot Woordenboek der
Nederlandse Taal" (any book with that important a title does not lie!)
First of all: We do not have a direct cognate for "haeven" in the religious
sense, but we do have the word "haven" meaning harbour, safe place.
The noun "hemel" has several meanings, amongst which:
1. The imaginary vault around the world, created by God, where the sun, moon
and stars show themselves.
2. That part of the atmosphere that can be seen on occasion. (with clouds,
rain etc)
3. depiction of the sky in a painting
4. the opposite of earth
5. The place where the God and the gods dwell (Like Our Father who art in
heaven...)
6. Opposite of hell.
The noun "Lucht" also has several meanings, amongst which the following:
1. The atmosphere, as a gaseous mixture of Oxygen and Nitrogen that
surrounds the earth, and which is necessary for life on earth.
2. The atmosphere as it is separate and different from land and sea.
3. The composition of the atmosphere in a defined space (like: It stinks
here)
4. The air we breathe
5. The air in a certain locale, esp. "buitenlucht", The air outside.
6. The heavens, in descriptions of a visible sky.
7. A gathering of clouds, promising foul weather
8. smell(noun), odor, perfume

So it seems English differentiates between a "heaven" for the gods, and a
"sky", for the sun and the stars. Air is what we breathe.
Dutch differentiates between the "earth's atmosphere", which is a place for
the clouds and the birds, and which we also breathe, and a "heaven" which is
fit both for gods and the stars.

Whoo, I am going outside, I need some fresh air. No stars, this is Seattle
after all. Be well you all. Jacqueline

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thank you very much, Neighbor Jacqueline!

It seems to me that Dutch _hemel_ has pretty much the semantic range that 
German _Himmel_ has.

In Low Saxon you get a mixed bag, depending on dialect groups.  Many of them 
by and large retain a separation between the physical and the spiritual.  In 
my neck of the woods it's mostly _heven_ ~ _heben_ for the physical and 
_himmel_ for the spiritual, while my buddy Gabriele says it's the other way 
around in her area.  As I demonstrated, ancestors of both words existed 
already in Old Saxon (_heƀan_ and _himil_).

Old German has a cognate of "heaven" and _heven_: _heban_, but this bit the 
dust later.

I wonder if the eventual separation between "heaven"/_heven_ and 
"sky"/_himmel_ in English and Saxon is due to common roots, English 
missionaries in the land of their ancestors*, or Christianization generally. 
Until Gabriele told us that in her area it's the other way around, I used to 
suspect that Saxon _heƀan_ was the native and basic word while _himil_ was 
either a Frankish loan or was reinforced by way of Frankish 
Christianization.

[* Apparently, Saxons from England went to their ancestral area in order to 
convert their continental relatives to Christianity, and apparently they 
managed to communicate fairly well. A famous example is Saint Boniface (ca. 
675-754), now considered the founder of German Christianity. By birth he was 
Wynfryþ of Crediton in Devon.  While he may be seen as an instrument of 
Frankish power or even as a Frankish missionary who happened to be born in 
England, he did venture into Saxon (and Frisian) lands before the eventual 
Frankish victory of Saxon resistance in 804.]

Jacqueline, as for "haven" (which is believed to be etymologically related 
to "to heave"), it may be unrelated to "heaven."  "Haven" comes from Old 
English _hæfen_ ~ _hæfne_, which is related to Old Saxon _haƀan_, Middle 
Dutch _haven_, Middle Saxon _havene_, Modern Saxon _haven_, Modern German 
_Hafen_, Old Norse _höfn_,  etc., with semantic spread and specialization 
covering 'haven' and 'harbor', so 'safe place'.  However, in Modern 
Scandinavian *_hav-_ just means 'sea', as does Old Norse _haf_ and Old 
English _hæf_ (not to mention the Modern Low Saxon word _haf_ <Haff> 
'stretch of shallow coastal water', 'tideflats section').  Some people seem 
to believe that these words are derived from "to heave" as well ...

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================