LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.22 (01) [E]

Wed Feb 22 16:24:04 UTC 2006

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22 February 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.24 (03) [E]

>From Paul Finlow-Bates
Luc, Henno and All;
Words like *thwers, twers, dwars etc look to me to be related to English 
"thwart".  Now used mainly in the verbal sense of to obstruct, originally 
literally to "cross in front of".  It can be seen in the preposition 
"athwart" - across, though that's a bit old-fashioned now.  The seat in a 
small boat is also called a thwart, as it lies across the hull.

Paul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Paul!

You wrote above:

> Words like *thwers, twers, dwars etc look to me to be related to English 
> "thwart".

I completely agree.  Maybe people missed my posting to this effect a few 
days ago, or they didn't go along with it.

> In Low Saxon -- at least in the northern dialects, we use _dwars_ too,
> pronounced [dva:s].  Its basic meaning is that of German _quer_:
> 'transverse', 'crossways', 'diagonally', 'across', 'at right angles',
> 'athwart' (!!!), 'aslant', 'abeam'.
>
> _Dwars_ appears to be related to English "thwart" < Old English _þwert_ as
> well as to German _quer_ and in some Low Saxon dialects _dwer_.  (There is
> this _þw-_ > _dw-_ ~ _kw-_ again, as related to some Slavonic loans such 
> as
> *_twarek_ > _kwark_ <Quark>.)
>
> As for 'to take a shortcut', I'd probably say _dwars roever gaan_ in Low
> Saxon.  (What would the rest of you say?)
>
> Like in the the case of English "thwart," _dwars_ and _quer_ come with
> vibrations of "counter ...," "contrary" or "against," much like in "to
> thwart" = "to cross" = 'to prevent'.
>
> A common derivation of _dwars_ is _verdwars_ ~ _voerdwars_, which to my
> understanding adds a clearer meaning of "contrary," such as in _Dat gayt 
> my
> verdwars_ 'That runs counter to what I'm trying to do', 'That bothers me'.
> To my understanding, this connotes more clearly the sense of "crossing" 
> than
> does _Dat gayt my touwedder(n)_, where _touwedder(n)_ is mostly "against,"
> "opposed" (as in "direct clash").
>
> And, _dwars_ being a favorite word among Low Saxon speakers (not to 
> mention
> something approaching a cultural characteristic, as some of you may have
> gathered by now), there are many other derivations, some of them 
> interesting
> and amusing.  Here's a sampling (important words -- so take a note of
> them!):
>
> (ver)dwars snakken <(ver)dwars snacken> ("thwart-
>      talk") 'to talk in a contrary and opinionated manner',
>      'to talk back'
>
> (ver)dwars verstaan <(ver)dwars verstahn> ("thwart-
>      understand") 'to misunderstand', 'to twist someone's
>      meaning'
>
> (ver)dwars kyken <(ver)dwars kieken> ("thwart-look")
>      'to be cross-eyed', 'to peer', 'to leer', 'to squint'
>
> dwarsloyper ~ dwarslouper <Dwarslöper> ~ <Dwarsloper>
>      [pl. _s] ("thwart-runner") 'crab'
>
> dwarskop <Dwarskopp> [pl. _-köp_] ("thwart-head")
>       'eccentric person', 'person with odd ideas' [surely no one
>      *we* know]
>
> dwarsdryver <Dwarsdriever> [pl. _-s] ("thwart-driver")
>      (1) 'bad navigator'; (2) 'contrary person', 'opinionated
>       person with non-mainstream ideas and attitudes'
>      [again, no one *we* would know here]
>
> dwarsbüngel <Dwarsbüngel> [pl. _-s_] (< _Dwarsbü(t)tel_
>      "twart-bad"?) same as _dwarsdryver_ (2)
>
> dwarsbuydel ~ dwarsbüttel ~ dwarsbüddel <Dwarsbütel> ~
>      <Dwarsbüdel> ~ <Dwarsbüttel> ~ <Dwarsbüddel>
>      ("thwart-bag") [pl. _-s_] same as _dwarsdryver_ (2),
>      'weird person', 'absent-minded person', 'nerd',
>      'eccentric person'
>
> dwarsmoel(en) <Dwarsmöhl(n)> ("thwart-mill(s)")
>      'helicopter' (jocular neologism, mostly in the far north)

Furthermore, Henno wrote yesterday:

> Frisian  used
> to have "twers" (now uses dwers, under Dutch influence), from *thwers <
> *twars, which is related to Dutch dwars etc. Of course th > t is standard 
> in
> Frisian (tinke (cf think), tomme (cf. thumb), troch (cf through)).

_Thwart_ in this connection makes total sense, since, I believe, _þ-_ became 
_t-_ in Frisian and _d-_ in other West Germanic languages, and it became 
_t-_ in North Germanic; e.g.,

OEn > ModEn: þancian > to thank, þríe > three, þicce > thick
OFris > WFris: thankia > tankje, thrê > trije,  thiuk > tsjok
OLFran > ModD: thanken > danken, thrî > drie, thikki > dik
MidD > Afr: danken > dank, drie > drie,  dik > dik
OSax > LSax: thankôn > danken, thrie > drey,  thikki > dik
OG > ModG: dankôn > danken, drî > drei /dray/, dicchi > dick
OG > EYid: dankôn > דאַנקן dankn, drî > דרײַ dray, dicchi > דיק dik
ONor > DanoNorw: þakka > takke, þrír > tre, þykkr > tyk
Goth: þagks, þreis, þiqus

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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