LL-L "Diversity" 2006.02.27 (05) [E]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 27 February 2006 * Volume 05
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From: Tom Carty <cartyweb at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Diversity" 2006.02.27 (01) [E]

I agree wholeheartedly with what is said here. In Ireland we have a lot -
120,000 Polish, as many more Lithuanians, and as many more from other Slav
states, added to the 100,000 or so refugee applicants (including the remnant
1000 or so of the 16000 Roma refugess from across Europe) - thats 340,000
aliens in two years, in a nation of 3.5 million (excluding Northern
Ireland).

Our streets are filled with a multitude of languages, our tax coffers are
bulging, and our nightcubs are full of sexy women! Unfortunatly they brought
their husbands with them, as they were unaware I was here before they came,
or so they tell me!

In short, a small nation like Ireland can absorb a high amount of strangers
with no problems: why cant a large strong nation like the UK or Germany? In
Ireland we feel equal with the foreignors, in the old imperials - that is
those who have a problem with forignors in ex imperial states - they have a
need for superiority, making all surrender whats theirs to become a one
model German, or one model British or whatever.

This one-model mindset squashes all that is not of the model: including the
dialects, which ARE languages for the regions from which they are from.

Bravo for Helge!

Tomas O Carthaigh
http://www.Ullans.pro.ie
http://www.TeangaNua.pro.ie

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Diversity" 2006.02.27 (01) [E]

Hoi Helge!
Hey, I never knew you live in the Netherlands, great! Although, the last
few years it isn't that great anymore, exactly because of this intolerant,
populist government you were mentioning. Personally, I feel less and less
at home here, I'm dreaming of emigrating to West Africa or so... at least
a warm place where the people are warm as well (a hot spot with a hot lot).
But, what you said about Mrs. Verdonk - who'se really one of the worst
ministers we've ever had - is not entirely true: she didn't say people are
not allowed to speak a different language anymore, but that people -
especially foreigners that live here for some time - should learn Dutch,
speak Dutch in public spaces and know about the values of Dutch culture.
At least, I heard her say that in a radio interview, and she also denied
that Moroccans, Turkish or others couldn't speak their own language
anymore. Unfortunately it came in the news wrongly, and this will be
another blow in the face for our Muslim and other foreign or culturally
different brothers and sisters in this country, and that is really a shame.
And it is stupid too, because in the main cities half of the young people
is already part of an ethnic minority, so pushing them away is the dumbest
thing our 'leaders' can do.
Hopefully this problem will be solved automatically when, in a few
decades, everyone is a minority...

Ingmar

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Diversity

Folks,

Those of you who have paid attention to European language politics may have 
noticed the frequent bandying about of the previously obscure term 
"autochthonous" since the beginning of the movement to afford "lesser-used" 
European languages official status, protection and support.

"Autochtonous" tends to precede "minority languages" and "regional 
languages," often multiple times in one document.

The question is "What does 'autochthonous' mean?"  I'm sure the answer would 
be something like "A language is autochthonous has been there all the time, 
is indigenous to the area."  Of course, "all the time," "forever," etc., 
would be fallacies.  "A long time" would be closer to the truth, since all 
languages were introduced to their respective areas at one time of other. 
So the question then would be "And how long is that?"  You tell *me*! 
German was introduced to what is now Northern Germany in earnest (i.e., 
outside tiny elite circles) in the late 17th century, at which time Low 
Saxon began to lose prestige and develop into a minority language.  That 
isn't a long time in the great scheme of things.  Yet, people would 
definitely swear to German being autochtonous there.  How long does it 
normally take, and what favorable and obstructing circumstances are there? 
How long did it take English dialects of Old Saxon to be viewed as 
autochtonous?  Probably not all that long, for might makes right for one 
thing, as in the case of German in the north.  Many or most people in, say, 
Bulgaria and Greece would not view Turkish as an autochtonous language in 
their country, although it has been used there for centuries.  (Remember 
Turkish Bulgarians being forced to take on Bulgarian names not too long 
ago?)  For one thing, it is the language of the Ottoman Empire that occupied 
those areas, and for another thing it is associated with Islam -- and those 
are two serious strikes against it in the eyes of "real" Europeans.

I remember people telling me with consternation that a mosque was being 
built in our old neighborhood in Germany.  There was also a new Mormon 
temple and a new Seventh Day Adventist hall, not to mention a hyper-modern 
Roman Catholic church (in a predominantly Protestant area), but that wasn't 
worth mentioning.  You get my drift?  In Northern Europe there are Turks, 
Kurds, Africans and others who are native-born and whose grandparents 
arrived there as immigrants, many with permanent temporary permits, many 
naturalized in the meantime, many feeling like strangers in their ancestral 
countries.  In Germany, and probably in other parts as well, these are 
referred to as "foreigners," even those with German citizenship.  Those of 
East European origin will eventually be seen as German, even despite their 
"weird" last names.

When the wearing of head scarves of Muslim women was outlawed in France (in 
the 21st century!) and was described as an "un-French" practice, some of us 
who have been around, know a bit about history and are familiar with the 
connotations of the terms _undeutsch_ and "un-American" felt pretty darn 
horrified, and many of us still do.

"Autochthonous" has always seemed like a major disclaimer to me, and I doubt 
the language recognition movement would have succeeded the way it did had it 
not been for the use of "autochthonous."  Depending on one's point of view, 
it could be seen as a concession to xenophobia, if not as an expression of 
it.  Diversity is still a hard sell in Europe, and diversity without the 
"autochthonous" disclaimer is a non-selling item.

An important question to ask would be "What are speakers of autochthonous 
minority languages going to do about this, if anything?"  Will they help the 
"non-autochthonous" language speakers by including them and dropping the 
"autochthonous" label?  I hardly think so.

Despite the injustice and horrors committed in its name, the "purity dream," 
the dream of nation, religion, ethnicity, culture and language neatly 
coinciding, surely isn't dead yet.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron 

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