LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.28 (02) [E/LS]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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28 February 2006 * Volume 02
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
> Luc:
>
>> E: "oblique, leaning over" = Western Flemish  "schots en scheef" ≠
>> " wistercapeêle",
>> meaning disorderly and chaotic"(E: higgledypiggledy)
>
> Can it also mean 'ramshackle'?
>
> What's the etymology of this _schots_?
>
> I suppose the Low Saxon nominal equivalent is _kuddel-muddel_
> (<Kuddelmuddel>), which is used in certain Missingsch varieties as
> well.  I assume the second part is related to English "muddle."  In
> North Saxon, a messy, chaotic place or event may also be called
> _moel_ (<Mœhl>, <Möhl>), literally "mill".  (Does this mean that
> old-time mills where messy and topsy-turvy?  Perhaps, what with all
> the farmers brining in their bags of grain and the miller not
> keeping track of which bag belongs to whom ... also all the
> cheating that reportedly went on in many mills ...)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ramshackle is the word i was looking for! (didn't know it) We use the
expression almost always when talking about old or poorlooking
buildings.
-Kijk noa dad huus, 't stoa heêl schots en scheêf, 't is ol plak en
stak.

The etymology of this "schots" is mentionned unknown in the "Vandale"
dictionnary .
The meaning differs from strange, to weird, to arrogant, to funny .
"Scheef" means crooked.

Could muddle and mill (moel) be related here?
-V: mulder is  a miller
-V: mul = dust / grinded corn of lower quality / something that is
broken to pieces, smashed or shattered.
-V: mulhoek = a place where dust is gathered together, and where the
broom stands.
-V:mullegewin = wages of a miller (if the wages are paid in nature
(flour) it is called "multer"
-V:mullen = dust flying around

groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Sorry, folks.  This one ran away before I finished it.  This is the real 
edition.

Thanks, Luc.

> schots en scheêf

Any possible link with "Scottish"?

But wait!  There's more!  The root may be related to what in German is 
_Schutt_ 'rubble', '(large) debris'.   (This word must have ended with _-d_, 
for otherwise it would have become *_Schutz_ or *_Schuss_.)  It is used with 
large items, typically with buildings.  In North Saxon it's _gruus_ (usually 
in the phrase _in gruus un muus_ 'in/to pieces/bits').  It is related to Old 
Saxon _skud_ with the same meaning.  Dutch has _puin_, but I'm not sure if 
it has the same semantic range.  Old Saxon has _mulli_ and _gimulli_ 
(related to "muddle"?).  So, now I suspect that _schot-_ and _Schutt_ are 
related to German _schütteln_, Low Saxon _schüddeln_ and Dutch _schudden_ 
'to shake' and to German _schütten_ and Low Saxon _schüdden_ 'to pour', 'to 
dump'.  Old Saxon has _skuddian_ for 'to shake' and _skuddinga_ for 
'dump(ing)' (noun).  Old Low Franconian has _skuten_ for 'to shake'.  Old 
English has _scydd_ ([SYd]) for 'dump'.  Old Frisian has _skedda_ 'to shake_ 
and _skeddinge_ ~ _skettene_ 'dump'.

Hmm ... and this makes me wonder about English "shot" in the phrase 
"{something} is shot" meaning that something is spoilt or destroyed.  I used 
to think that it was the past participial form of "to shoot" (as also in the 
sense of Australian/New Zealand "shot" meaning 'drunk', 'wasted').  But now 
I'm wondering if it's related to German _Schutt_.  Also, "schot" can refer 
to a sick ewe or to any sheep or part of a sheep herd that is considered 
waste.  "Ready to be shot dead" or _Schutt_ = "disposable left-over"?

> Could muddle and mill (moel) be related here?

I doubt it.  Middle English supposedly got it from Middle Dutch _moddelen_ 
'to mess with mud', but I'm wondering if the source is really Middle Saxon 
_muddel(e)n_ with the same meaning and the extense 'to make a mess', 'to 
muddle'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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