LL-L 'Technica' 2006.07.31 (06) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 31 July 2006 * Volume 06
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From: 'Brooks, Mark' <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.31 (03) [E]

David Clarke wrote: "...descent from Mel Gibson in 'Braveheart' in
particular."

With Mel's recent arrest and subsequent outbursts, perhaps they're right ;-)

Mark Brooks 

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From: Heather Rendall <114426.1360 at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.31 (02) [E]

I sent this some days ago just before the Blip! Did I miss it on the forum?

Sandy wrote >It's generally considered that there's no real evidence that
American
Indians ever had encounters with Welsh people before Columbus,<

Actually Madog made two journeys. The first when as a younger son, he left
to seek his fortune. ( Or was he banished?) He then returned with stories
of a fine open land that he had discovered and he encouraged 3 boatloads of
people to sail away with him in order to found a colony in this other land,
This is how the story was able to be left in Wales.

It is thought he sailed up the Mississippi and took a right turn somewhere
( I forget where - Tennesee? ) and ended up with the Indians who were known
as the Mandans.

When they were 'rediscovered' in the 17th century, these Indians were the
only Plains Indians ( if that is the right expression) who used canoes :
theirs were rounds and are thought to have been versions of coracles,
their number system seemed related to the Welsh and they spoke of having
had a Big Book. An artist travelling with some early pioneers left drawings
of them and their artefacts.

Perhaps DNA will be able to prove something - just as it has for the
African 'Cohen' tribe.

Heather

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.26 (10) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: History
>
>As Heather alluded, DNA research may have quite a few surprises in store for us,
>some of them perhaps being of the unpleasant sort for some people.
>
A few years ago there was a documentary on TV here in the UK where the
paternal lines of four men were traced using DNA to pinpoint their
common ancestors. This involved pinpointing how many generations back
their common paternal ancestor was. One man was White (British, I
think), one was black (African, I think), one was Asian (from the Indian
subcontinent), and the other was Japanese, from a family that considered
themselves to be pure-blood Japanese.

The surprise was that the White, Black and Japanese men were much more
closely related than the Indian man, at least on their paternal lines.

I think at least we'll soon be laying the spectre of a pure-blood race
to rest.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: 'jonny' <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.31 (03) [E]

Hi Ronny,

you wrote:
> Contemporary Nordic reports about these events are
> scarce;
> archeological finds have added much knowledge in recent decades.

I read about some vague intentions of the Archbishops of Bremen and Hamburg to
convert the native people of America to Christianity (Adam von Bremen, 'Gesta
Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum'???; I don't remember at the moment). This
already occurred in the 11. to 13. century and could content a grain of salt,
because Iceland and Greenland (and great parts of the Scandinavian continent)
mainly have been Christianized from there (Bremen).

So, if we can believe this, there must have been some very concrete reports about
Vineland which took their way round the European countries and clerical dynasties.

What do you think about this stuff?

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Heather and Jonny,

I don't consider any of those stories impossible fantasies, just prefer to see
more evidence.

Coracle-like boat building has sprung up here and there, such as Wales
(_cwrwgl_), Ireland and Western Scotland (_currach_), India (e.g., Tamil பரிசல
_parisal_), Iraq (ﻏﻔﺎ _gufa_), Tibet (_ku-dru_, _ko-wa_) and Vietnam (_thùng
chà i_ "fishing basket"?).  So there could be an element of coincidence.  Among
Indigenous North Americans, there's the "bull boat," and yes, it seems to be
specific to the Mandans.

Wikipedia:
<quote>
The language received much attention from Euro-Americans because of their lighter
skin color, which they speculated was due to an ultimate European origin. In the
1830s Prince Maximilian of Wied spent more time recording Mandan over all other
Siouan languages and additionally prepared a comparison list of Mandan and Welsh
words (he thought that the Mandan may be displaced Welsh). The theory of the
Mandan/Welsh connection was also supported by George Catlin. No linguists would
today take this proposal seriously, however, and there is no reliable evidence in
its favor.
</quote>

Wikipedia's take on the Madoc story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

Jonny, I think it's entirely possible that the mission in Bremen was aware of the
tales about Vinland (supposedly coastal parts of today's Northeastern Canada,
namely Newfoundland and Labrador).  While the Icelander Leifr Eiríksson (c.
980-1020) came up with the name, it was Adam of Bremen that publicized it in
_Descriptio insularum Aquilonis_ in 1075, having received details from the Danish
king Sweyn II Estridsson Ulfsson (c. 1018–1076).  However, before that there was
a period of oral history, and embellishment was common then.  Nevertheless, we
now assume that there was some truth to the story of Vikings settling in the
region, most importantly based on the archeological finds at L'Anse aux Meadows
(L'Anse-aux-Méduses), Newfoundland.

Interestingly, early French settlers apparently encountered the Algonquin legend
now known as _Royaume du Saguenay_ (Kingdom of Saguenay) which is about a then
apparently extinct "kingdom" of wealthy fair-haired people to the north.

The name Saguenay is still found in regional place names, but I rather suspect
that these were inspired by the story and by consequent French endeavors to find
the treasures of those blond people.  Of course, the name Saguenay makes you
wonder if the end of it has anything to do with Old Norse _ey_ 'island', found
also in numerous British place names.  Hey!  What if it was *Saganey ("Isle of
Stories") or *Sâganey ("Isle of Goddess Sâga")?  ;-)

Sandy:

> I think at least we'll soon be laying the spectre of a pure-blood race
> to rest.

I propose a party to mark that day.  Venue?  Heather's lawn, provided it's summer
but outside the hornet season.  Alternatively we could have a hoedown around
Gabriele's Ulenflucht and entertain each other with fantastic tales of yore.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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