LL-L 'Names' 2006.11.15 (02) [D]

Thu Nov 16 19:13:20 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16 November 2006 * Volume 02
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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' [karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net]
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2006.11.11 (02) [ELS

Was ich in diesem Diskurs Ã¼ber Namen vermisse ist der Terminus
"hanseatisch". Dieser wird ja verwendet fÃ¼r norddeutsche Kultur, Leute,
LebensgefÃ¼hl usw.
KÃ¶nnte dieser nicht auch fÃ¼r die Sprache verwendet werden? Die Hanse steht
fÃ¼r die HochblÃ¼te der NiedersÃ¤chsischen Kultur und Sprache, hat keine
negativen Konnotationen (so viel ich weiÃŸ), sodass eine Bezugnahme auf diese
weit entfernt ist von etwa einem Verdacht "vÃ¶lkisch" zu sein. Ich meine euer
Anspruch: "Wi sÃ¼nd de echten Sassen!/Wir sind die echten Sachsen!" kÃ¶nnte
missinterpretiert werden als eine mehr oder weniger weit rechts stehende
SachsentÃ¼melei. Weiters denke ich, dass die Menschen in Nordostdeutschland,
inklusive mÃ¶glich noch existierende Minderheiten in Polen, im Baltikum und
in Russland, ihre Sprache und IdentitÃ¤t nicht als "sÃ¤chsisch" empfinden.

"Hanseatisch" erscheint mir dagegen als eine Nomenklatur, die alles umfasst,
was Menschen und Kultur im betroffenen Territorium gemeinsam haben. Und wird
doch auch so verwendet, nicht? Weshalb wird die Sprache davon ausgenommen?
Ist es mÃ¶glicherweise so, dass "hanseatisch" nur fÃ¼r StÃ¤dter akzeptabel ist,
wÃ¤hrend Leute auf dem Land da nichts mit anfangen kÃ¶nnen? (BTW: Das war
jetzt eine "missingsche" da-mit Trennung, nicht?) Und sich deshalb vor den
Kopf gestoÃŸen fÃ¼hlen wÃ¼rden, wenn ihre Sprache als "hanseatisch" bezeichnet
wÃ¼rde? Oder ist da sonst irgendein Hund begraben?

What I miss in this discours of names is the term "Hanseatic". It is used
for Northern German culture, people, lifestyle etc. Could it also be used
for the language? The Hanseatic League stands for the heyday of LS culture,
has no negative connotations (as far as I know) and so a reference to it is
far apart from something like I'd call "vÃ¶lkisch" in German. I mean your
claim: "We are the real Saxons!" could be misinterpreted, as a more or less
right wing "SachsentÃ¼melei". Furthermore do I think, that people in
Northeast Germany, including possibly still existing Low German minorities
in Poland, the Baltic states and Russia, don't perceive themselves (their
identity and language) as "Saxon".

But "Hanseatic" seems to be a nomenclature, which encompasses all what
people and culture in the concerned territory have in common. And it's used
in this sense, isn't it? So why is the language exempted? Is it, that
"Hanseatic" is only acceptable for townies, whereas rural people don't
identify themselves as "Hanseaten"? So they would feel offended by
"Hanseatish" (BTW is -ish instead of -ic also accurate?) as name for their
language? Or is there something else I don't know about it?

Karl-Heinz

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names

Thanks, Karl-Heinz!

I really appreciate your thoughts.

Well, I don't see how "Saxon" could *rationally* be perceived as right-wing when
other communities use ethnonyms such as Swabian, Alemannic, Bavarian, Pomeranian,
Thuringian, Frisian, Sorbian, etc., to stay within the context of Germany. 
People of the state of Saxony are referred to as "Saxon" now?  What's the difference?

Ah! Let's see! I think you mean that in this case it could come across as
ethnically secessionist, namely as claiming a separate ethnicity from Germans by
virtue of a separate language (_sans_ "German" in the name), as in the case of
Frisians, Sorbs, Danes, Roma and Sinti. The "Saxons" of the Netherlands get away
with calling their language "Low Saxon."  What's the difference?  Do the reasons
have anything to do with Germany having changed the equivalent of the language
name "Old Saxon" to "Old Low German" -- *for general consumption*, while the
equivalent of "Old Saxon" is still tolerated if it is used strictly within
academic circles (where there's little danger of the "common" people accessing it
and getting "funny ideas")?

And this, I suspect, is really the root of it all, including the refusal to
seriously work with LS speakers in the Netherlands to reach common goals and thus
reunite the communities, ultimately to prevent language death.  Borders may have
turned invisible, but they still loom large in people's minds, larger in some
people's than in others.

So let's assume the "worst" thing came to pass: Low Saxon speakers successfully
follow the path toward ethnic separation (which I don't think will ever happen).
*Then* what? Clandestine All-Saxon conventions at old ting-steads somewhere in
Westphalia? Civil war? Murder and mayhem?  If so, what's the latest on the war in
Northern Friesland, Schleswig and Lusatia?  Last time I checked, people there
regarded themselves as having German nationality and their respective ethnicities
largely symbolized by retention and promotion of their respective languages and
cultures.

And here we get back to the terminology you used.  Who are the right-wingers? 
The Carinthian Slovenes that claim non-German-Austrian ethnicity and retain their
Slavonic language but accept Austrian nationality, or their German-speaking
neighbors that resent the "foreignness" in their midst and tear down bilingual
road signs, saying things like "Be Austrian or get out!"?  Are Frisians, Danes,
Sorbs, Roma and Sinti right-wingers by virtue of retaining their ethnicity and
languages? Are these cases of _TÃ¼melei_?  What about Cornishmen in Cornwall,
officially a part of England?  Right-wing _tÃ¼melers_ as well?  If not, what would
be different if -- for the sake of argument -- this Low Saxon thing were pursued?
 Who are the right-wingers?  The _tÃ¼meling_ Low Saxons or those Germans that
resent their ethnoglot assertion efforts, the ones that aspire to the ideal of
nationality and ethnicity coinciding, in other words, the ones that resent the
idea of diversity?

The problem with "Hanseatic" is that only people in historic Hanseatic cities
identify with it.  Another problem is that historic Hanseatic cities are found
south of the Low Saxon language area as well, and of course in several countries
around the Baltic Sea as well as on the Norwegian coast.  "Hanseatic" could be
far more controversial a choice, because it is likely to evoke _TÃ¼melei_ about
past colonial glories outside Germany and the Netherlands, and I hardly think
everyone in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Russia, Finland, Sweden, Denmark
and Norway would take all that kindly to the idea.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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