LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.11 (05) [E/LS/Danish/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 November 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

Leve Lowlanners
> It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
> were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
> would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
> activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
> was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
> sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
> spotted by a Welsh speaker.
That is a good idea. Perhaps we should do the same here in Germany.

Hi Ron,
> Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the
Danish
> community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
> Thies.
Languages are always sensitive.
>
> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
> highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north,
> namely in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the
concentration.
I was referring to the area that has a Danish minority.

> (Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern
> Jutland and that many Danes think of it that way, though
> *Sønderjylland/Synnejylland * "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative
> area within today's Denmark, and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig
> on today's German side of the border as *Sønderslesig/Synneslesvig*
> "Southern Schleswig," as opposed to *Nordslesvig
> *"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

> As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's
> German state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some
> time, all the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact,
> some communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state
> Hamburg (e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this
> reason, there are many place names all over the state whose names have
> Danish equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside
> Denmark then).

Well, the Wikipedia says in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jütland
that only the danish part of this peninsula is referred to as Jütland. I
have
only heard "Southern Jutland" with reference to Schlewig, not with reference
to Holstein. The english wikipedia sees things a little bit different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutland "Holstein has never been part of
Jutland
proper, but is geographically situated on the Jutland Peninsula. The
peninsula is also called the Cimbrian Peninsula, Jutland-Holstein or
Jutland-Schleswig-Holstein. "

Anyway, the old Sprachgrenze (language border) is " Eider – Treene –
Eckernförde." This had also been the political border for quite some time.
An
example is the border of the "Heiliges Römische Reich Deutscher Nation" from
1648 as depicted in
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.png
The language border changed over time and moved northwards. I once saw maps
about this, but I do not remember where.

To my knowledge Holstein has never been part of Denmark. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein
"It was from 1111–1474 a County of the Holy Roman Empire, although later
occupied by Denmark during the TBDL war in the early years of the 13th
century[clarify], and thereafter became an Imperial (reichsunmittelbar)
Duchy
until the dissolution of the Empire in 1806. In 1460 Holstein became
inherited, along with the Danish Duchy of Schleswig, by the King of Denmark,
who necessarily, and whose heirs, ruled the two territories as Dukes (and
not
as kings).
..
From 1815 to 1864 the Duchy of Holstein was part of the German
Confederation,
though still in personal union with Denmark (the King of Denmark being also
Duke of Holstein). "

That means the king of Denmark happened to be the Duke of Holstein and ruled
both his kingdom Denmark and his duchy Holstein in personal union.

The story then continued with
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-Dänischer_Krieg

"Nach dem ersten Schleswig-Holsteinischen Krieg behielt die dänische Krone
zwar die Hoheit über Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg, verpflichtete sich
aber, die Herzogtümer als selbständige Einheiten innerhalb des Gesamtstaates
zu behandeln. Zudem sollte nach dem Londoner Protokoll von 1852 Schleswig
verfassungsmäßig nicht enger an Dänemark gebunden werden als Holstein und
Lauenburg.
Die dänische Novemberverfassung von 1863 bezog jedoch Schleswig
vertragswidrig
mit in den dänischen Kernstaat ein. Dies wurde aus dänischer Sicht
notwendig,
um den Staat handlungsfähig zu halten."

The attempt of Denmark to integrate Schleswig (!) completely into the Danish
state then led to the military intervention by Prussia and Austria that led
to German rule over Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg.

> I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this
sounds
> a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context.
There may be better ways in English to express what I meant.

> While there are
> areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
> especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
> capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything
like
> everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
> similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland"
> Northern Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural,
> and there are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside,
> with the exception of Kiel maybe.
Let us just have a look at an official danish site:
http://www.gkflensborg.um.dk/de/menu/Infos/Minderheit/Grenzziehung/
This comes from the Danish general consulate in Flensborg:

"Nach Beendigung des Krieges in 1864 mußte Dänemark beim Frieden in Wien die
Herzogtümer Schleswig, Holstein und Lauenburg an die deutschen Siegermächte
abtreten. Während die beiden letztgenannten rein deutsch waren, war der
überwiegende Teil der Bevölkerung im nördlichen und mittleren Teil von
Schleswig dänischgesinnt. "

So there is no historic Danish minority in Holstein, not even the Danes
claim
otherwise. Of course there are Danes who moved to other places. I knew a
girl
of our church some 20 years ago whose father was Danish, they were living in
Elmshorn (Hostein). But that does not lead to a "Danish minority" in
Elmshorn, at least not in the sense national minorities in the borderland
are
usually defined.

> Below is a list of color-coded examples.

> Lübeck  Lübeck  ?  Lybæk
That one is nice. It does not come from -bek (Bach), but from a slavic name
"Liubice". But if the Danes like to write Lybæk, they are free to do so, but
my guess is that they will never get it on the city road signs of Lübeck as
it as never was an area with a Danish minority. It did not even belong to
the
duchy of Holstein as it was a "freie Reichsstadt" of the German Reich.

Kind regards,

Heiko

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Heiko!

Thanks for your response.

We may be splitting hairs here. My point is that with certain minorities
territorial allocation does not sit well with me. Like ethnic Germans in
Schleswig-Holstein, Danes live in both rural and urban settings and as such
they are spread out, albeit most concentrated near today's border.  Danish
is not classified as a "regional language," as far as I know.  Official
publications from Schleswig-Holstein on the state level include Danish
versions, but North Frisian ones only marginally (probably due to the small
number and regional confinement of its speakers).

True, Denmark treats the German minority similarly, confining its official
presence to Northern Schleswig. I know that German Danes have moved to other
parts as well and still speak German. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So for diplomatic reasons, the King of Denmark was officially the *Duke* of
Holstein, but he was the same person and was not a German citizen. Yes,
technically he ruled as a vassal of the German Realm ("som hertug af Holsten
var den danske konge vasal under det tyske rige"), but ...

I know that a few of my ancestors in Holstein were born Danish citizens.
Look at all the Danish and Danish-derived surnames in Holstein. Pick out the
history of various places now in and around Hamburg and find reference to
Danish rule. If you read Glikl Hameln's autobiography you get real-life
accounts of 17th- and 18th-century Hamburg Jews periodically seeking shelter
from pogroms in next-door Altona under the protection of the Danish crown,
and I have read historical accounts and stories in which citizens of
Ahrensburg (right outside Hamburg) had to travel to Copenhagen to present
petitions to the king. Some of the best historical records from and about
the area are now in Copenhagen archives.  If that is not a case of Danish
rule I don't know what is, though I'm using the word "rule" somewhat
loosely.

Altona:

Altona var indtil 1864 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> en af det danske
monarkis <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danske_Monarki> vigtigste havnebyer.
Monarkiets første jernbane <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jernbane>, Altona-
Kiel <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel> (*Christian VIII. Østersø
Jernbane<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona-Kieler_Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft>
*), åbnedes i 1844 <http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/1844>. Tabet af Altona
nødvendiggjorde bygningen af Esbjerg
Havn<http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esbjerg_Havn>.

[http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona]

Nach dem Aussterben der schauenburgischen Linie Pinneberg-Holstein (1640)
fällt Altona an das Herzogtum
Holstein<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzogtum_Holstein>und damit an
den jeweiligen dänischen König. Dieser ist in Personalunion
König von Dänemark und Herzog von Holstein und somit Lehnsnehmer des Kaisers
des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher
Nation<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_Deutscher_Nation>.
Daher ist Altona zwar bis 1806 deutsch und bis 1864 holsteinisch, steht aber
unter dänischer Verwaltung mit allen sich daraus ergebenden Angleichungen
z. B. des geltenden Rechts <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recht> und der
Währung <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4hrung>.

Am 23. August 1664 verleiht der dänische König Friedrich
III.<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_III._%28D%C3%A4nemark_und_Norwegen%29>Altona
die
Stadtrechte <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtrecht>; dieses
Privileg<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileg>umfasst unter anderem
Zoll-, Stapel- und Gewerbefreiheiten sowie
Gerichtshoheit <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gericht>. 1683 wird eine
städtische Lateinschule gegründet, die 1738 zum Gymnasium erweitert wird,
das unter dem Namen Christianeum
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianeum>heute noch besteht. Seit
Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts werden hier auch
zahlreiche Schüler aus Altonas jüdischen Familien aufgenommen. Mit rund
12.000 Einwohnern 1710 und rund 24.000 Einwohnern 1803 ist Altona nach
Kopenhagen die zweitgrößte Stadt innerhalb des dänischen Gesamtstaates, zu
dem neben dem Königreich Dänemark auch die Herzogtümer Schleswig und
Holstein, das Königreich Norwegen sowie Island, Grönland und die
Faröer-Inseln gehören. Außerhalb des Königreiches Dänemark ist Altona damit
sogar die größte Stadt im dänischen Gesamtstaat.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg-Altona]

In 1664 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1664> it [Altona] received city rights
from Danish King Frederik
III<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederik_III_of_Denmark>.
Until 1864 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864> Altona was one of the Danish
monarchy's most important harbour towns. Denmark's first railroad from
Altona to Kiel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiel>, the Christian
VIII<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_VIII_of_Denmark> Baltic
Sea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea> Rail Line (*Christian VIII.
Østersø Jernbane*), was opened in 1844.
In 1867 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1867> it became part of
Prussia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia>
.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altona%2C_Hamburg]
Ahrensburg:

Mit der Säkularisation
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4kularisation>auf Grund der
Reformation <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation> wurde der König von
Dänemark <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A4nemark> Eigentümer des
Gebiets. Er belohnte seinen Feldherrn Daniel
Rantzau<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Rantzau>1567 mit der
Herrschaft über diese Dörfer. Sein Bruder und Erbe Peter
Rantzau <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Rantzau> baute um 1595 den
Renaissance <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance>-Herrensitz in Form
einer Wasserburg <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schloss_Ahrensburg> und die
Schlosskirche, heute die Wahrzeichen der Stadt. Vorbildlich war die
Angliederung von "Gottesbuden" (Wohnungen für alte und mittellose Menschen)
an die Kirche.
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrensburg]

Denmark aptly calls the historical periods of Danish "presence" in the
region *personalunion* (personal union).

So, I'm partly playing *djævelens advokaten* on behalf of our Danish
neighbors and compatriots with whose history Schleswig-Holstein's history is
inextricably entwined and who have left noticeable layers of heritage
throughout the state. Had it not been for Austrian interference (yes!), we
might still be speaking about a part of Denmark (which would probably entail
extinction of Low Saxon and Frisian in those parts, since Denmark seems to
have a knack for that). In fact, Danish-ruled Northern Schleswig and
German-ruled Schleswig-Holstein are a type of overlap of Denmark and
Germany. Now that relations have improved and Europe is supposedly growing
together, I think it's time to celebrate this rather than to play intricate
diplomatic word games. It would be nice if especially Southern Jutish, Low
Saxon and North Frisian would be prominently featured as common heritage in
this rather than only Danish and German in the way of country-to-country
business as usual.

And *advokaten* still holds that from a geographical point of view Holstein
*is* a part of the Jutland Peninsula. Allens annere is diplomaatschen
Tüünkraam. Süh so!

Of course this doesn't mean we aren't on the same page. We just turn the
pages somewhat differently. ;-)

Hold Dy styv (un hold eynluden un tweyluden uutenanner)! ;-)
*Reinhard/Ron*

***
"Livet skal forstaas baglæns, men leves forlæns."
(Life must be understood backwards but must be lived forwards.)
                                     Søren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813–1855)
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