LL-L "Names" 2008.01.18 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  17 January 2008 - Volume 05
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From: Marcel Bas <roepstem at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.01.18 (03) [E]

Hi Ron!

That's interesting. I didn't know that the earliest word (maybe **wal-*?)
must have been a word that must have denoted something like
'Romance-speaking Celtic'. I thought 'stranger', or 'speaking funny', like
so many words for neighbouring people in many languages (barbaroi, etc.).
In Austrian and German languages, we know the word *windisch *and *wendisch,
*used to refer to Slavonic tribes. Do you perhaps know what the original
meaning of that word was?

Indeed, in some 'Flemish' mouths the word 'Walen' is used in such a negative
fashion, that for me 'Walen' has gained a negative connotation. 'Romance
speaking Belgians' sounds better, nowadays. It's a sociological process; the
southerners and northerners are growing apart. One would almost think that
it's French-speaking peoples versus Dutch-speaking peoples. But to a large
extent, the 'Walen' also consist of romanicised Germanic people. Jacques
Brel was one of them (a very late one, and not Walloon in the strict sense;
rather a French speaking 'Brabander'.
In the past, the huge province of Brabant was bilingual, with Romance
dialects in the South, Germanic dialects in the North. Nobody cared.
I believe it's the Belgian state that causes people to focus so strongly on
languages, when there is, actually, a socio-economic battle going on, and
there are conflicting interests.

Best regards,

Marcel.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Marcel,

*Wenden* etc. is believed to be related to "Vandal," even Vandals were East
Germanic speakers.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: foga0301 at stcloudstate.edu
Subject: LL-L "Names"

Marcel, Reinhard, Jacqueline, Ben, and all,

   Another quick note I can't resist sharing on names.

Marcel you wrote,

The words "Waal" and "Walloon" mean "stranger", so I'm not so fond of this
word for the linguistic status of the southern half of Belgium; it neglects
the regional languages spoken there, and it reduces Romance inhabitants of
the Lowlands as "strangers"

Reinhard you wrote,

It is true that *Waal* etc. has been variously interpreted as "stranger."
The other, probably original and remaining meaning is something like
"Romance-speaking" from "Romance-speaking Celtic." The group of names is
related to "Gaul," "Gallic," "Gaelic," "Wales," "Welsh," *welsch*, *Wallis*;
cf. French *gallois* for 'Welsh'. In this sense I don't see anything
negative in it, but perhaps it's different for Dutch speakers. Large tracts
of formerly Celtic-speaking Europe became Romance-speaking, and Germanic
speakers therefore identified any Romance variety (practically all of which
had Celtic substrata) as "Welsh." It was only later that this name came to
be extended to mean "others" and "gobbledigook" ( e.g. German *Kauderwelsch*).


After immigrating to the US, my father's family decided to Anglicize our
surname (from Fokken to Fonken).   This was originally so that the preachers
in the family could avoid the vulgar implication of a name that sounded like
the *f---* word (such as "I told that *f---ing* preacher to…").  But then
when I was dating a Norwegian in college, he told me that Fokken meant
something worse in the original—that he would be embarrassed to tell his
family that he was dating "a devil".  I guess in Germany the word
*fokken*means a burning coal or amber in the fire, but in Norwegian it
means
something like "hell" or those who live in hell and enjoy it.  This guy also
drove a Mercedes that he bought in Germany.  He probably had more interest
in German cars than German women, though.

But so now if you add my first name Gael (stranger) to the word Fokken (the
devil), it might be best to start over entirely.  However, it seems better
to me to think of all this as just part of the work of crossing borders.
 It's better to generate talk on the other side of a border than to evade
all that with name changes and silence.  Jacqueline, the entire country of
Belgium seems to be a world-class borderland.  I'm impressed.  In the US you
can travel for days and days and still be in the same country.  That's not
healthy. Names here have lost all their meaning.

Gael
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:


   1. It is true that *Waal* etc. has been variously interpreted as
   "stranger." The other, probably original and remaining meaning is something
   like "Romance-speaking" from "Romance-speaking Celtic." The group of names
   is related to "Gaul," "Gallic," "Gaelic," "Wales," "Welsh," *welsch*,
   *Wallis*; cf. French *gallois* for 'Welsh'. In this sense I don't see
   anything negative in it, but perhaps it's different for Dutch speakers.
   Large tracts of formerly Celtic-speaking Europe became Romance-speaking, and
   Germanic speakers therefore identified any Romance variety (practically all
   of which had Celtic substrata) as "Welsh." It was only later that this name
   came to be extended to mean "others" and "gobbledigook" ( e.g. German
   *Kauderwelsch*).


The troubled relationship between the (Western) Flemish and the French is
old. During the battle of the Guldensporenslag (in 1302), the slogan already
was: "Wat walsch is, valsch is. Slaet al dood."
(freely translated: What is welsh, is false. Slay all)

I'm not a historian, but I have the impression that these
anti-French/Francophone feelings have always been a lot more intense in
Flanders than they were in the center of the country. Maybe this originated
in the County of Flanders being a fief of the French king, whereas the Duchy
of Brabant was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Maybe, maybe, maybe it even
goes further back to a Saxon/Frankish divide, where the French king was
viewed as heir to the Frankish warlords.

Franks, in turn, can also be seen as "strangers" of course, just look at the
Thai word "farang", for a Westerner and Persian "farangi" for a non-muslim.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS: "Wallonia" is called "De Walen" in Brabantish (analogous to "De
Vlaanderen" and "De Limburg").
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