From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 00:20:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:20:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.30.NOV.2009.162057.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (02) [EN]

 Dear Lowlanners,


perhaps you remember our discussion about the way on which we got the word E
:'church' , DE 'Kirche' into our languages - because we know it is a
derivation of κυριακόν (*kuriakón* "the Lord's")

or better, as Ron stated, of κυριακή (*kuriakē * "of the Lord").


Very interesting thought, Reinhard, when you write:

The earliest Greek-speaking communities in Germanic-speaking areas were
probably Jews that followed the Romans.



But - maybe I've got another surprising theory.

.

Today I made some more investigations and discovered a very interesting fact
- the Irish/Scottish way to Christianity went via the Eastern christian
communities, not via Rome!!

de.wiktionary says:

>> Das keltische Christentum weist viele Wesenszüge des vornizäanischen
Christentums auf, >> es dürfte näher mit den Ostkirchen, der heutigen
orthodoxen Kirche als mit der römischen >> Westkirche verwandt gewesen sein.

(English: "The Celtic Christendom shows many characteristics of the
pre-nizaeanic Christianity; it should have been related closer to the
Eastern Churches, todays Orthodox, than to the Roman Western Church.")

And further:

>> Die keltischen Klöster legten großen Wert auf das Studium der Bibel,
Irland bekam den

>> Ruf der „Insel der Heiligen und Gelehrten“. Karl der Große lud aus diesem
Grund viele

>> irische Gelehrte an seinen Hof.

(English: "The celtic monasteries placed value on the studies of the holy
bible, Ireland thus got the halo as an "Island of the Holies". Charlemagne
for this reason invited many Irish scholars to his residence.")



So the well-known influence of Irish and Scottish missionares on the
continental Germanic folks brought the *'kirke'* with it (even supported by
the Mightiest of the Mighty - Charly), and this fact also explains that '*
kirke'* appears in Britain nearly at the same time as on the continent.



But at last one question is still to clarify - how did the Scottish and
Irish monks (and folks) get into contact with the Greeks? Ireland as well as
Scotland never were part of the Imperium Romanum, so perhaps it was
a tradition of pre-Roman trading contacts??!



One new question every day...



Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

Lower Saxony, Germany



PS:

Nice thread, Jonny!

(Thanks, Ron!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

OK, here are the words for "church" in the Modern Insular Celtic languages
and the most likely donor languages:

Goidhelic:
   Irish Gaelic: eaglais
   Scottish Gaelic: eaglais
   Manx: agglish

Brythonic:
   Cornish: eglos
   Welsh: eglwys
   Breton: iliz

Greek: εκκλησία (ekklēsía)
> Latin: ecclesia

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:30:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:30:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.093039.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in December 2009!



Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of November 2009! They
live in the following places:


*Netherlands* (Nederland):
     Zeeland:
          Rilland [1]
*Switzerland* (Schweiz, Suisse, Svizzera, Svizra):
     Geneva (Genève, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra):
          Geneva (Genève, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Essex:
               Manningtree [1]



Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail vs Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use < <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com>.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.*

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
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in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please.

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If you
just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as the
author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe authors the
courtesy of crediting them by name.

Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the sign-off
command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me ( <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) a message giving us the old address and the new
address. If you don't remember under which address you were first
subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the new address.



*Temporary Absence*

Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.



Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.



Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>lowlands.list at gmail.com

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

�

==============================END===================================

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:31:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:31:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.093151.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in December 2009!



Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of November 2009! They
live in the following places:


*Netherlands* (Nederland):
     Zeeland:
          Rilland [1]
*Switzerland* (Schweiz, Suisse, Svizzera, Svizra):
     Geneva (Genève, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra):
          Geneva (Genève, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Essex:
               Manningtree [1]



Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail vs Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use < <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com>.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.*

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please.

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If you
just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as the
author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe authors the
courtesy of crediting them by name.

Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the sign-off
command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me ( <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) a message giving us the old address and the new
address. If you don't remember under which address you were first
subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the new address.



*Temporary Absence*

Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.



Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.



Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>lowlands.list at gmail.com

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:44:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:44:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.094412.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia


Dear Lowlanders,

Sorry about this morning's double issue. It was due to a server stutter.

Please bear in mind that there are server problems in case this happens
again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:49:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:49:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.094929.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (05) [EN]


Tom,



Yes, “nyuck” as a way of indicating laughter is a case of onomatopoeia.  In
particular, it’s the usual way of writing down the way Curly of The Three
Stooges laughed: “Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!”



There’s also the phrase “yucking it up” meaning “having a good time with a
lot of laughter; telling jokes back and forth.”



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD


----------


From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (01) [DE-EN]


And further to this, what did the Germanic people call their temples/holy
places before they borrowed *'kyriakon' ?*  Or does this suggest that they
didn't really have dedicated places to worship gods etc?

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]


Irish Christianity was a copticesque Chritianity, and only became Roman
after Pope Adrian. Hence the disputes about Easter, etc.

There was more than one St Patrick, the one we know as St Patrick was
preceded by Palladius and another dude.

Irish contacts with Egypt go back a long long way, the semi-legendery
Milesus queen was Egyptian Scota, as was his sons wife.

Coming back toi the issue of Jews in Europe, it is a growing belief the
seafaring Phonecians were Jewish by language at least, if not by blood.

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"*

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 20:21:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:21:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.122120.0800.>

===========================================
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]

from Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jonny wrote: So the well-known influence of Irish and Scottish missionares
on the continental Germanic folks brought the *'kirke'* with it (even
supported by the Mightiest of the Mighty - Charly), and this fact also
explains that '* kirke'* appears in Britain nearly at the same time as on
the continent.

Two things to add: the Celtic Church was also keenly influenced by the
Desert fathers of the (?) Coptic or at least Eygptian Christian Church - so
contact via the Med / Gibraltar / Spain perhaps or France / Ireland

The concept of the single cell retreat came this way.

Secondly re my reference to the use of 'betehus' which no-one has picked up.
I have always been puzzled by the town name in Wales of Betwys y Coed  where
the Betwys = Chapel. Yet it sounds and looks as tho' it ought to be derived
from the German. Could a returning father have imported it back to Wales???

Heather

Worcester UK
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Heather,

I wonder if early Dutch-speaking immigrants had their hands in this: *
*betehuus* > **bedehuis* (*gebedshuis*)?

Remember that large numbers of medieval Dutch speakers, mostly in the
garment trade, moved to Wales and later from their to parts of England and
Scotland (hence surnames like Fleming, Walsh, Welsh etc.).

But wait! There's more!

Old Saxon actually has the word *bedehūs* ("prayer house")!

Old Low Frankish sources are scarcer, but I consider it possible that it had
a cognate.

Now I'm starting to wonder if you are right in suspecting that the word was
introduce to Wales from a Saxon source.

In Old English I would expect a cognate like **bidda**hūs*, but there seems
to no trace of that.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 03:19:31 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:19:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.191931.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I wonder if early Dutch-speaking immigrants had their hands in this: *
*betehuus* > **bedehuis* (*gebedshuis*)?

Remember that large numbers of medieval Dutch speakers, mostly in the
garment trade, moved to Wales and later from their to parts of England and
Scotland (hence surnames like Fleming, Walsh, Welsh etc.).

But wait! There's more!

Old Saxon actually has the word *bedehūs* ("prayer house")!

Old Low Frankish sources are scarcer, but I consider it possible that it had
a cognate.

Now I'm starting to wonder if you are right in suspecting that the word was
introduce to Wales from a Saxon source.

In Old English I would expect a cognate like **bidda**hūs*, but there seems
to no trace of that.


Bitte! ;=)

Note also the name of first and foremost Anglo-Saxon scholar: The Venerable
Bede, one of the greatest (church) historians of all time probably.

His name is cognate with "bede" (Dutch for prayer), and with English "bead".
Yep, the New Orleans stuff ;=)...originally used in something more mundane
like a Roman-Catholic rosary...with which you could count your prayers.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]

 Dear Lowlanners,

looking for the origin of 'kirke' again.

Ron means:

OK, here are the words for "church" in the Modern Insular Celtic languages
and the most likely donor languages:

Greek: εκκλησία (ekklēsía)
> Latin: ecclesia

Yes, of course, the Celtic Christs still call it with a related term this
way (and I mentioned it in my first posting in this threat)! But these Irish
missionaries had to be diplomates, and they had to respect the germanic
people's old customs to be successful in their intentions to perform them
into Christs.

So - maybe they took up 'familiar' items denoting Germanic mythology, as we
know it from other rituals as Easter festival and Christmas.

And isn't "κυριακον" ('Haus des Herrn')  a perfect translation of

*"Valaskjalf"* (also called 'Walhalla' but that's wrong!)?

de.wiki writes:
>>Valaskjalf ist in der nordischen Mythologie einer der *Götter*paläste in
Asgard. Das Dach >>der *Halle* ist mit Silber gedeckt. Laut der Snorra-Edda
steht hier auch ... der Thron >>Odins.

("In nordic mythology the hall of the Germanic Gods, with a roof of silver
and the throne of Odin in its midst.")

10 cents worth??

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, *makkers*. Very interesting!

Jonny:

And isn't "κυριακον" ('Haus des Herrn')  a perfect translation of

 *"Valaskjalf"* (also called 'Walhalla' but that's wrong!)?

In what way is it a perfect translation?

*Skjalf*, a cognate of "shelf'" ("platform", "terrace"?), apparently
referred to a divine abode or temple. (There you are, Paul.) *Vala-* is
thought to refer to the god son Váli.

Am I missing something ... a lot?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 17:46:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:46:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.094621.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (05) [EN]

"Bedehuis" I have never seen in Dutch, although it is a valid compound I
think as we have "bedevaart" with bede- as first element, meaning
pilgrimage.

Similar to this though, modern Dutch has "gebedshuis" which can be a place
of worship of any undecided religion, but I'm not sure if this is an old
word or a rather modern one (i.e. if it predates the borrowing of "Kerk",
but I think it probably doesnt)

Diederik

----------

From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]

Some thoughts towards the 'kirk' discussion:

On: ''Greek: εκκλησία (ekklēsía) > Latin: ecclesia''   and  '' κυριακή
(*kuriakē * "of the Lord")''

It may be that originally κυριακή was used for a building (- house of
the Lord ... > kirk/ church), and εκκλησία more for the idea of the
church as a body of people (in Christ) - it means 'those who have been
called out' or suchlike in Greek. There were plenty of Germanic contacts
with the Roman Empire both before and after Constantine's conversion and
the official adoption of Christianity (in the 300s), so it could be
expected that a name for the buildings seen by Germanic mercenaries and
others might then spread into Germanic speech well beyond the Roman
frontiers.

(By the way, εκκλησία at least has a very long history of use, being
found in the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament translation made for
Greek-speaking jews before Christ's birth, and very often quoted in the
NT. This is the official OT of Eastern Orthodox Church. Terminology,
quotes and also readings make it more compatible with the NT than the
later Masoretic Hebrew text upon which most western OT translations are
based. Septuagint is often based on older Hebrew variants, some of which
were found in Dead Sea scrolls.)

Celtic Church and Eastern Christianity links:
Recall a reference somewhere to an Egyptian Saint's life from 500s/
600s, where there's an incidental mention of a trading ship sailing from
Alexandria to Britain. Also ref. in Irish annals to visiting Firr Gorm
('blue men' = black Africans), some of whom (I seem to recall) were
Ethiopian monks (also pictures of modern Ethiopian crosses, which often
have knotwork very like that found in Celtic countries). Eastern-based
Emperor Justinian may have funded trade with former areas of the Western
empire, and a fair bit of E. Mediterranean pottery has been found in W
British elite sites from the 500s to back this up.

The early Christian Church was largely Aramaic and Greek-speaking.
Greek was already the official tongue for the East of the Roman Empire,
and also became a key medium for Christian expression further afield.
Greek was quite widely spoken even in Rome, and it was only with time
that use of Latin came to predominate in the Western Church.
The survival of 'Eastern' (but maybe often better described as 'older')
Christian features in the Celtic areas was partly due to reduced
contacts with other churches after the end of the Western Empire. A
range of factors (including those connected to the rise of an ever-more
powerful and controlling Papacy, and innovations such as Augustine's
doctrine of Original Sin) helped hide the eastern origins of
Christianity in the West.
(On this original sin idea, I understand that when the British
scholar-monk Pelagius took Augustine of Hippo on about this in the East
in about 410 or so, he was not found to be heretical there, but
Augustine later got him condemned locally in the West, where his
mistaken, extreme take on human depravity has been a problem ever since.
Some of Pelagius' followers took things too far the other way. The East
had and often still has a more positive emphasis than Augustine. It is
fascinating to try to get behind our Western-oriented conditioning of
thought in connection with Christianity. Its easy to forget that for
Christian history, the East long played a much more significant role
than the West.)

On the Welsh name:  Betws y Coed (Betws is said 'bet-ooss', with short
'oo') - recall reading that its from Middle English 'Bedehus' = prayer
house/ chapel (so maybe not an older borrowing into Welsh). I think the
same word is in Old English too.

(Phonecian - this is a Semitic tongue very like Hebrew. Phonecian
script is the basis of Old Hebrew, Greek, Latin and thus our own
alphabets.)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 17:47:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:47:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.02 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.094754.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Tradition  (Fortsetzung mit ...)

*Päpernoet un annern säuten Kram*
(und wie gut es mundet...)

So eine richtige Päperkauken-Gegend war Mecklenburg wohl nicht, aber in der
Vorweihnachtszeit begann auch hier die Festbäckerei (so auch noch
heutzutage).

*Brun' Päpernoet*
Dunntaumalen würr de Deig (der Teig) all in de ierst Adventwoch' orrig schön
rührt un jeden Abend düchdig knät (geknetet), un denn würr de Schoetel
taudeckt un in de Abeneck (Ofenecke) afstellt un in de letzt' Week vör
Wihnachten backt.
De witt' Päpernoet würr dunnmals mit baschen Päper (schwarzer Pfeffer unreif
geerntet) anrührt.
So gab es verschiedene Redensarten, die sich auf Härte, Form und Farbe,
Geschmack und Zeit der Pfeffernuß bezogen.
Sogar in einem Abzählreim der Kinder heißt es
"Eene meene mu, Fritzen sin Fru,
Fritzen sin Päpernoet, dat büst du".
Bei Kälte ..."dat alls to Päpernoet friert", oder bei Hitze ... "gah rut ut
de Sünn, du brad'st noch to Päpernoet".
So mancher konnte sich auch zu einer (braunen) Pfeffernuß ärgern.
Zu einem Leckerzahn (Lickertähn) sagte man auch "dat müggst woll, Päpernoet
in'n Sirup stippen" (die Pfeffernuß war bereits mit Sirup gebacken).
Sogar in der Liebe hatte die Pfeffernuß eine wichtige Bedeutung. Während
heute eine Pfeffernuß evtl. zwei sich Liebende schnell verbinden könnte
(d.h. zur gleichen Zeit beißt das sich gegenüber sitzende/stehende Paar in
die Pfeffernuß und kommt sich näher zum Kuß), lehnte damals ein junges
Mädchen eine Verlobung am Weihnachtstage ab ... "ick will kein
Päpernoetsbrut (Pfeffernußbraut) sin".

*Klöben, *m. länglicher Kuchen in Brotform, auf der Oberseite mit Längsriß
in der Mitte, in Hagenow vielfach gebrauchte Bezeichnung aus dem
Hamburgischen, statt der heimischen  *Stoll  un Stuten *(Zeitschrift des
Vereins für Volkskunde, Berlin 1929-1940).
Stuten war eigentlich ein Gebäck aus Weizenmehl angerührt mit Milch, Zucker
und Rosinen und sah aus wie eine große Semmel (Brötchen). Den süßen Stuten
aß man  zur ersten Mahlzeit an Sonn- und Feiertagen.
"Luten (Ludwig) backt Stuten in fif Minuten, in fif Sekunn' is alls
verswunn' ".
Jene Stollenbäcker prahlten: "Min Rosinen kann jedwerein seihn", dor harr he
de Rosinen  *up *  de Stuten backt.

*Kinnjes'poppen, Kannjes' *(Kind Jesu),
Das waren lustige Gestalten wie Männer, Frauen, Pferde, Hasen (Haas'poppen,
braune Farbe wie der Hase), Hirsche und Schweine, die aus einer Mischung von
Lebkuchen und Semmelteig gebacken wurden. Mancherorts wurden diese
gebackenen Figuren auch an den Weihnachtsbaum gehängt. Waren diese
Teiggeschöpfe mit Safran (Gewürz) bestrichen, dann fanden sie besonderen
Anklang (NDZ. 24.12.1983).
In einigen mecklenburgischen Gegenden wurden diese  Kinnjes'poppen vor
Weihnachten von den Semmelfrauen "Stutenollsch" aus der Stadt in die Dörfer
gebracht, und die Kinder fanden sie dann am Weihnachtsmorgen in den abends
auf das Fensterbrett gelegten Pudelmützen.

Noch heute backen die Frauen und Bäcker gern diese Leckereien.

"Lickertähn, mag'st ok gräun Seep?" ("Leckerzahn, magst auch grüne Seife?")

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert, sowie eigene Sammlung, Vorträge für URANIA
(mit Kostproben der Weihnachgtsbäckerei).

Übrigens, am 12. Dezember nehme ich teil:

*Welcome to our English Christmas Party*

Die englischen Leckereien von süß bis herzhaft werden garniert mit
Geschichten und Anekdoten zur ihrer Entstehung. Weshalb die Engländer den 2.
Weihnachtstag "Boxing Day" nennen. Anschließend sehen wir den Film "A
Christmas Carol" natürlich auf Englisch.
(Ich bin noch nicht ganz der engl. Sprache mächtig... aber wir haben schon
den engl. Text  "A Christmas Carol" im Englisch-Unterricht gelesen und
übersetzt ...  und gepaukt /gelernt.)

Viel Freude bei der Weihnachtsbäckerei und ich freue mich auf den
12. Dezember.

Lickertähn Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 18:27:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:27:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.12.02 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.102724.0800.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: German Attitudes towards regional dialects (thus incl. minority and
regional languages) and literature recommandation

Leve Fruennen,

Ik heff jues wat lest in de duetsche Avis "Die Zeit' un wenn ik dat les denn
weet ik dat liggers nu friisk, dansk, serbšćina un neddersassisch vun de
Bundesregeerung as "spraaken" anerkannt suend sik doch garnix veraennert
haett in Duetschland. De (hoch)-duetsche nationalismus und chauvinimus is no
juemmers so as foer 50 jaar. De link to duessen artikel is de folgende:

http://www.zeit.de/campus/2010/01/arbeiten-dwdd

Ji moet ju mol de kommetare vun de leser doerlesen, dat is nix anners as
diskrimation vun linguistike minderheeten, incl. schwizerduetsch-sprekers. De
luet begrip ni dat ok eer egen oellern un groessoellern mol een "dialekt"
snack hebb un met duesse kommetare seggen egentli nix anners as "min eegen
groessoellern suend dumm un primitv wes denn se kunnen ni richti
hochduetsch". De luet begrip ok ni dat alens relativ is, magh vlich foer een
duetschnationalen "reines hochdeutsch" prestigieus ween, so is precies
duesse hochduetsche utspraak un akzent alens annere as prestigieus wenn
duesse luet denn engelsch or nederlandsch snack. "Die Zeit"s een
links-liberale Avis awer dat schient dat de links-liberalitaet opeenmol
voerbi is wenn dat oem nationale linguistike minderheeten in Duetschland
geit....man kann juemmers good klagen oever minderheten-diskrimination wenn
dat wiet wigh vun to hus is awer wenn dat denn int egen hus is, daar hoellt
dat denn op, denn suend de minderheten op eenmol "primitiv" "egoistisch"
oder "chauvinisten". Daardoer dat ik mi suelens nuems met de hochduetschen
assimiliseert hebb un mi dat egal waer wat se vun min hochduetsch dinken,
daardoer heff ik annere spraken veel beter leren kunn. Awer vertell dat mol
een....so steit dat ni int book un so leert man dat ni op de school. Un
soelvens mol nadinken, dat laat man lever de peer daan, de hebb een
groettern kopp....

Ik heef awer ok no wat anners to vermelden denn ik woell ju een heelsch good
book rekommandern, dat heet "Besoek bi ole Fruenn" vun W.L. Andersen ut
Kating in Eiderstedt (Sleswig-Holsten), dat is een beschrievung oever den
leefdaagh in Eiderstedt voer 100 jaar un is to bestellen bi den
W.L.Andresen-Verlag in Husum. Dat book is in Eiderstedher neddersassisch
schreven un is wul een vun de besten boeker de ik lest hebb.

Leeve Groeten vun
Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Daar kriggst ’n groten Dank för, leve Helge. Un dat is mi ’n Hœgen, dat wi
maal wedder wat vun di to höörn kriegt in dien fein “Noordsch” mit
jüütsch/däänsch Inwarken.



Dat Dinken, wat du vun schrieven dääst, dat kümmt na mien Menen noch jümmers
vun dat ole europääsche Dinken vun wägen „one nation = one ethnicity = one
language“ un daar wägen „Diversity weakens the modern state“. Düt Dinken,
dat se jahrteihntenlang in us rindrummt harrn, dat geiht nich so gau weg.
Dat wardt noch tominnst indirektemang vun Öllern un Schoolmeesters an Kinner
wiedergäven, dat se as „moderne Börgers“ good to Schick kaamt, good ankäken
wardt, ’n nejen Typus Minsch, de good anschräven is un allerwägens good an’n
Drücker kümmt. Dat bedüüdt denn ook, dat de Minschen, de noch an jüm ähr „
olen“ Dialekten un Spraken hangt, keen modernen Börgers sünd, na vergahne
Tieden tohöört, eendoonts of se ook de „Hoog“-Spraak good kœnt. Alleen dat
Anhangen an „ole“ „binnenlandsch-frömde“ Spraak un Kultuur is Grund noog vun
jüm to dinken, se lehnt den nejen Staat un dat „neje Börgerdoom“ af. In
mennig een Fall wardt dat as polietsch, sezessionistisch Dwarsdrieveree
ankäken.



Düsse Saak wardt nich vääl œver snackt. Man se sitt liekers deep binnen in
de Denkwies’ vun’n „modernen“ Börger un de, de dat warden wullt. Un dat hett
’n basig Inwarken in de Sprakenpolitik.



Grötens,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 03:37:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:37:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.193713.0800.>

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From: Utz H.Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]

Diederik schreef:

"Bedehuis" I have never seen in Dutch, although it is a valid compound I
think as we have "bedevaart" with bede- as first element, meaning
pilgrimage.

Beste Diederik,

in de bijbel wordt het huis van God bedehuis genoemd, bijv. Jesaja 56:6,7

"Die zal Ik ook brengen tot Mijn heiligen berg,20) en Ik zal hen verheugen
in Mijn bedehuis;21) hun brandoffers22) en hun slachtoffers zullen aangenaam
wezen op Mijn altaar;23) want Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden24)
voor alle volken.25)"
...
"21)    in Mijn bedehuis;
    Hebreeuws, in het huis mijns gebeds; dat is, in den tempel, die
geordineerd is tot een huis, waarin men mij aanbidt, en voorts de kerk van
God in het algemeen."
...
"24)    genoemd worden
    En het behoorde ook zodanig inderdaad te zijn."

http://www.statenvertaling.info/js56.htm

"BIJBEL DAT IS DE GANSE HEILIGE SCHRIFT BEVATTENDE AL DE KANONIEKE BOEKEN
VAN HET OUDE EN NIEUWE TESTAMENT
DOOR LAST VAN DE HOOG-MOGENDE HEREN STATEN-GENERAAL DER VERENIGDE
NEDERLANDEN EN VOLGENS HET BESLUIT VAN DE SYNODE NATIONAAL GEHOUDEN TE
DORDRECHT IN DE JAREN 1618 EN 1619 UIT DE OORSPRONKELIJKE TALEN IN ONZE
NEDERLANDSE TAAL GETROUWELIJK OVERGEZET."
http://www.statenvertaling.info/

Groetjes uit Olland
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]

Diederik,

I'm not sure what the borrowing situation is (or which way it might've
been), but Norwegian (and other Scandinavians?) has "bedehus" meaning I
think the same thing.

Regards,
Lucas Annear
Madison, Wisconsin, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Lucas,

I'm pretty sure that Norwegian *bedehus* goes back to Middle Saxon
*bedehūs*via massive Saxon influx during the era of the Saxon-speaking
Hanseatic
Trading League. Actually, it could even go back to Old Saxon
*bedehūs*("praying house"), since Christianization of Scandinavia,
though regulated
by the Franks, emanated from what is now Northern Germany. Hamburg was
primarily established as a trading post and missionary headquarters for
Scandinavia and to a lesser degree to the Polabian Slavs (who where
geographically the closest to Hamburg at the time). In turn, "Vikings" and
Slavs frequently attacked and sacked Hamburg. The beginning of these
missions preceded the establishment of the Hanseatic Trading League.

Norwegian may have received *bedehus* directly from Saxon or via Danish,
which has *bedehus* as well. (It seems to mean 'chapel' rather than actually
'church'.)

If Old Norse had a cognate word I would expect **bœn(i)hūs*. In Icelandic I
would expect **bænhús* or **biðjahús*, in Faroese **bønhús* or **biðjahús*.
I can't verify the existence of any of them. Swedish, however, does have
expected *bönhus*, which may or may not be a Saxon calque (i.e. loan
translation). Finnish has *rukoushuone *("prayer room") which may or may not
be a Swedish or Saxon calque.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 16:12:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:12:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (01) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <THU.3.DEC.2009.081253.0800.>

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From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]

The old Dutch church in Kingston NY (once a Dutch-speaking city) in the
Hudson Valley, bears an older stone in the stone wall beside the main door
that reads just so:  *Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden voor alle
volken.  *The inscription was moved into its present position in the 18th
century from the original church, as I understand it.

RK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Robert!

It's great to hear from you again. It had been a while.

It is quite interesting that you could pinpoint an actual occurrence of
expected Early Modern Dutch *bedehuis*, and that in North America!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: For what it's worth, I love your poetry.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 20:54:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:54:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.3.DEC.2009.125436.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (03) [EN]

 Dear Tomas

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

I always enjoy reading you. I hope my pennyworth is not too late on this
rather braided string.

You wrote:
Coming back toi the issue of Jews in Europe, it is a growing belief the
seafaring Phonecians were Jewish by language at least, if not by blood.

A source I cannot cite as written, but if I may refer to Ze'ev Tekhes of
Kibbutz Mishmar HaNegev, a scholar of Jewish demography:

Ze'ev pointed out that after the destruction of Carthage, which until then
dominated the carrying-trade throughout the Western Med. & adjacent Atlantic
seaboards, the only people that could pick up the pieces were Jews. As you
say, they spoke a language extremely close to liturgical Hebrew. In the
Eastern Med & even in their own cities the current language had been Aramaic
for some time, but the citizens of Qriat Khadash, as the Romans called it,
'Carthago' - (New City) still spoke it even, he wrote, into St. Augustine's
time (The common folk in the hinterland still called themselves Ca'anani
(Caananite).

There are evocative traces & memories of Phoenecian influence, so I read,
around the tin & silver trade with Cornwall. Is there not a local deity
Belial for example? If so, that word comes out in both Punic & Hebrew as 'My
Lord God' or 'My Lord Is God', depending on context. Tin was a lesser but
vital component of bronze, & in the Eastern Med. at least, was largely in
the hands of Alexandrian Jewish traders.

Then there was a scandal about (does anything change?) a notable fraction of
the Temple treasury (The Temple in Jerusalem) being *squirreled away* in
Spain... - as the Romans called it - Hispania - as the Carthaginians called
it, 'Ii HaShafanim' - (Cony Island). I hear some people are still looking
for it. First stop is somewhere around Toledo, 'Qriat Toldot' - (The City of
Generations)

Anyhow, the whole of the British Isles could by-pass any contacts at all
with Continental Europe or the North-shore of the Med. They had access
through Punic traders & their successors the Jews to the African shore & its
hinterlands right back to Egypt, & that continued even after the Jewish
Wars, through the mediation of the African Church right up until the Vandal
invasion of North Africa.

There is no evidence, & perhaps we have no business speculating, but it is
by no means unlikely for Jesus to have travelled to the British Isles. In
any event, in Alexandria he is almost certain, in his youth, to have met
many of his own nation that had.

In any event, there is no need for a Teutonic or Roman medium of
transmission to the Emerald Isle of the word 'Church', 'Kirk' or 'Kerk', but
it was surely an established term in all Christianity before the
Augustine-Pelagian schism.

As for 'Bedehuis', for what it's worth my J. R. R. Tolkien cites the very
word, the Welsh 'Bittws' as one of the few Anglo-Saxon borrowings into
Welsh.

Oh, pardon my lurking! Only some people - so many - have so much more to say
& say it so much better.

Yrs,
Mark

P.S. My Ruth reckons some of us goyim know too much about Judaism for our
own good.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 23:22:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:22:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.3.DEC.2009.152254.0800.>

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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (02) [EN]

Mark, Facinating analysis of the Carthagh connection. It was believed as
factual history that Jesus and Joseph had come to Britian up to the 1900's
(and still held to this day by those of the extrme right) and those of that
persuasion believe the Scythians, from which we get the Indo-Europeans were
one of the lost twelve tribes, insinuating we all are decendent of the
ancient Jews.

Todays Palestinians hold the view they are descendant from Islamicised Jews,
as opposed to Arab settlers after the Islamisication of the area.

Unfortuantly those two positions are polluted too much by the extreme
nationalism to give much credence to a this stage, but perhaps in time
whatever grain of truth there is in it can be extracted and be sanititsed of
the extemeist thinking it be's used to popularise.

Conventional thinking using research of DNA today gives us a different
thinking, that those who may speak a language may not be of the stock of the
origion of the language.

Current hypothesis states the Southern Englsih of Kent to Cornwall by blood
are strongly Celtic, while the Irish are genetically strongly Basque/pre
Celtic, yet respectivly they have a Germanic language base and a Celtic
langauge base.

There was an "Iron" language in Ireland (meaning difficult) in pre Gaelic
times, spoken by the populace, but it seems sometime around 100AD there was
a shift to standard Gaelic in its old Irish format. However it is thought
that the Iron language suvuvued in areas up to 700-800 AD in a similar state
to Irish as a spoken language today.

This is often used as justification for the British presence in Ireland, as
history repeats itslef, and the Gaels got their positio in Ireland using the
same methods as the British used generations before.

Hoerver, as an Irishman I beg to differ!

Of late I have obtained a copy of "The Story of Ireland" by A.M. Sullivan,
and while much of the contents today are debunked as pseudohistory, at the
time of its writing it was recieved as being factual enough, the truh being
in all probability being somewhere in the middle of the two positions.

It outlines in the early chapters the arrival of the Gaels in different
waves from current day Galacia, a path not believed in current teaching, who
say the Celts came to Ireland from Gaul. However the genetics point to the
origional position, unless the dominant Gaels came from Gaul with the
subject peoples came from Spain.

The bible states that after the tower of Babel God confused the languages so
man could never try to claim to be as great as God, that being a sin of
gross pride, and it looks like He in His wisdom done a great job!

lol

This topic indeed is meandering, and maybe is none the worse for that!

It would be interesting to note the position of germanic legends of their
origions...

Tomás Ó Cárthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  4 19:36:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:36:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.04 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.4.DEC.2009.113643.0800.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (01) [EN-NL]

Dag laaglanders,
The only words in Flemish (in stead of church 'kerke') would be: godshuus /
godeshuus / temple.

Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

Op 3-dec-09, om 17:12 heeft Lowlands-L List het volgende geschreven:

From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]

The old Dutch church in Kingston NY (once a Dutch-speaking city) in the
Hudson Valley, bears an older stone in the stone wall beside the main door
that reads just so:  *Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden voor alle
volken.  *The inscription was moved into its present position in the 18th
century from the original church, as I understand it.

RK

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Robert!

It's great to hear from you again. It had been a while.

It is quite interesting that you could pinpoint an actual occurrence of
expected Early Modern Dutch *bedehuis*, and that in North America!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: For what it's worth, I love your poetry.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  6 18:55:18 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 10:55:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.12.06 (01) [EN-NDL]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.DEC.2009.105518.0800.>

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From: fredvanbrederode at home.nl
Subject: Culture and politics

In November NRC-Handelsblad columnist J.L. Heldring posted an article on the
“ European presidential elections”, which seemed like a Holland-Belgium
match.

Heldring points out the cultural differences between the two countries. I
guess a discussion on these cultural differences are of interest to the
list.

I shall introduce the subject first.

At the end of November the present Belgian prime minister, Herman van
Rompuy, was elected president of the European Council. There were more
candidates for this high office, among them no one less than Tony Blair as
well as the Dutch prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende. Balkenende chose for
a candid strategy. His candidacy was never official. During the past few
weeks Dutch newspapers revealed his, heavily by diplomacy supported,
strategy. The conclusion is that Dutch diplomacy, once again, was beaten by
the Belgians.

Controversies between The Netherlands and Belgium are legendary. Where Dutch
and Flemish can perfectly communicate, watch, to some extend, the same
TV-programs, they never seem to cooperate.
Ever since the formation of the Dutch republic at the end of the
16thcentury, political unity between the regions disappeared. The
reunion after
the Napoleonic wars was not to last for long.
This is not an easy subject, many books were written about it. I do not have
the intention nor do I have the illusion to be able to add anything to this
discussion. I just state the fact that, though speaking the same language
(i.e in Flanders), cultures differ.

Back to the “presidential elections”: Balkenende for a long time seemed to
have the odds at his side. Merkel and Sarkozy supported him (according to
Dutch press). Van Rompuy nevertheless got the job. It is probably a too easy
explanation that Van Rompuy’s fluency in French and German did the job,
though this might be a more than nice to have quality in Sarkozy’s eyes.

Belgium (and Flanders in particular) and The Netherlands are no enemies. It
is just so that several controversies exist and are added to them on a
regular basis. Deep water policy (through Dutch waters) to the Antwerp
harbour are obstructed, so is the railway connection from Antwerp to Germany
(IJzeren Rijn), the one extra seat in European parliament for The
Netherlands offended the Belgians. On the other hand  the Flemish slow down
the construction of high speed rail to The Netherlands.
The relationship is full of contradictions and paradoxes. Many Flemish e.g.
hold the opinion that the formation of the Belgian nation in 1830 was a
regrettable Francophone action.

Historian Pieter Geyl (who also was a professor of Dutch history at London
University) in the first half of the 20th century advocated the “groot
Nederlandse gedachte”. In his “History of The Netherlands” Geyl considered
the area of the ancient Netherlands as one nation. This view is still
advocated by many Dutch and Flemish. Geyl on the other hand had no political
goals, also Geyl was very much aware of cultural differences between the two
regions. The Belga-Dutch controversy or paradox and the name Prof. Geyl are
very much connected.

NRC-Handelsblad columnist Heldring goes back to Geyl’s ideas for explaining
cultural differences between Dutch and Belgians. He also introduces a new
view on the cultural differences. This time the paradox is explained by
differences in the regions geographies.

Geographic determinism is in fact a very old idea in Von Humboldt’s
traditions. Modern geography left the idea and converted to a systematic and
mathematical approach. Still, even modern geography finds natural
environment of influence. Culture and  standard of technology determine to
which extend. The Belgium Dutch division dates back a long time, so why not
give way to the thought of geographic determinism for clarifying history?

About Heldring:
Heldring wrote his article on Geyl and the Belgian-Dutch relationship on the
eve of the election for “European president”.
Heldring is in his nineties already and still publishing. His career
included positions as chief editor of Handelsblad as well as positions in
the Dutch foreign service and the Clingendael Institute. A his eightieth
birthday Heldring was rewarded an honorary doctorate for his columns.
More about Heldring: http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Columns/Heldring/portret.html

The LL list members may appreciate reading the column on the subject I
introduced.

Regards,

Fred van Brederode
Goirle, Nederland

*NRC Handelsblad, donderdag 19 november 2009 door J.L.
Heldring<http://weblogs.nrc.nl/heldring/author/jlheldring/>
***

Veertien dagen geleden sloot ik mijn column af met de vraag: „Geyl *
redivivus?*” Achteraf besef ik dat die vraag voor veel lezers nogal
cryptisch moet zijn geweest. Vandaar een nadere verklaring.

In de eerste plaats: wie was Geyl? Pieter Geyl (1887-1966) was een – ook
internationaal – bekende historicus, die, nadat hij ruim twintig jaar
correspondent van de *NRC* en docent aan de universiteit in Londen was
geweest, van 1936 tot 1959 hoogleraar in Utrecht was.

In zijn tijd en in zijn ambacht gold hij in zekere zin als revolutionair. Zo
betoogde hij dat de scheiding die zich in de zestiende eeuw had voltrokken
tussen de Zuidelijke en de Noordelijke Nederlanden niet, zoals de
rechtzinnige leer (zowel in België en Nederland) luidde, toe te schrijven
was aan een al lang bestaand diepgaand verschil tussen Noord en Zuid, maar
aan geografische factoren.

Kort gezegd: de grote rivieren die Noord-Nederland doorkruisen, hadden het
de Spanjaarden onmogelijk gemaakt de opstand boven die rivieren te
onderdrukken. Zuid-Nederland kon heroverd worden, maar Noord-Nederland kon
zich achter die rivieren tot een zelfstandige en protestantse staat, zelfs
grote mogendheid, ontwikkelen. De scheiding tussen Noord en Zuid was dus aan
een geografisch toeval toe te schrijven.

Met deze theorie bracht Geyl op z’n minst nieuw leven in de brouwerij der
historici. Dat zij thans niet meer in haar volle omvang wordt aangehangen,
zou Geyl niet verdroten hebben. Van hem is immers ook de uitspraak dat de
geschiedenis een debat zonder einde is. Met zijn aandacht voor de
geografische factoren in de geschiedenis leverde hij in elk geval een
originele bijdrage aan dat debat.

Nu onlangs prof. W. Blockmans in een bijdrage aan de bundel *Het geheugen
van de Lage Landen* (uitg. Ons Erfdeel) stelde dat een goed begrip van de
Nederlandse cultuur onmogelijk is als er geen rekening wordt gehouden met
geografische factoren, stelde ik de vraag: Geyl *redivivus*? Anders gezegd:
is Geyl uit zijn graf herrezen?

De stelling van prof. Blockmans, een Antwerpenaar die in Leiden middeleeuwse
geschiedenis doceert, is dat in het ontstaan van de culturele verschillen
die tussen Noord en Zuid bestaan „de hertogen van Bourgondië noch het
calvinisme een doorslaggevende rol hebben gespeeld. Wat men dagelijks eet en
drinkt hangt af van de beschikbaarheid van voedingsmiddelen in een bepaald
milieu”. Exit dus de theorie van het ‘bourgondische’ Vlaanderen en het
‘calvinistische’ Nederland.

Wanneer het gaat om cultuurverschillen tussen volken, i.c. Noord- en
Zuid-Nederland, gaat het volgens Blockmans ook „om verschillen in
dagindeling, voedingsgewoonten, waardering van de rol van verfijnde voeding
en drank in het sociale verkeer, omgangsvormen, onderhandelingstactieken en
uiteindelijk waarden in het algemeen”. Maaltijden en drinkgelagen dienen
immers „in de meeste culturen als markeringen en bevestigingen van
belangrijke stappen in het leven”. En hier zijn de verschillen tussen Noord
en Zuid groot.

Dat de (Noord-) Nederlanders over ’t algemeen soberder zijn dan de
Vlamingen, ligt niet aan hun zogenaamde calvinisme, dat overigens, na de val
van Antwerpen, grotendeels door uitgeweken Vlamingen naar Nederland werd
geïmporteerd, althans gestimuleerd, maar aan – in de meest letterlijke zin
des woords – lager-bij-de-grondse factoren.

Onder die factoren noemt Blockmans Nederlands geografische gesteldheid: de
„ongeschiktheid van de bodem voor het verbouwen van broodgranen” en „het
schaarse milieu, dat weinig luxegoederen voortbracht en voortdurend nieuwe
investeringen vereiste om de voeten droog te houden”.

Zo werden de Nederlanders eerder haring- dan vleeseters en dronken zij
eerder bier dan wijn. Bier kon uit lichtere graansoorten gebrouwen worden,
vooral gerst, die op de karige poldergronden gemakkelijker verbouwd konden
worden dan de broodgranen en rogge. Dat bier werd niet alleen gedronken,
maar ook uitgevoerd – tot op de dag van vandaag.

En wat de haring betreft, die vormde de grondslag voor de zeevaart, want die
moest langs de Atlantische kusten, tot aan Denemarken en Portugal toe,
gehaald worden; later in de Schotse zee en in de IJslandse wateren. Voor het
kaken van de haring was zout nodig, en dat werd eveneens overzee gewonnen.
Nederlands lange kustlijn en zijn ligging aan de monding van enkele grote
rivieren vormden de basis voor zijn expansie overzee, terwijl zijn karige
bodem dwong tot zorgvuldige calculatie van kosten en baten en zo de
Nederlanders de naam bezorgde zuinig te zijn.

Hier kwam geen romantiek bij kijken, evenmin als calvinisme of
gidslandgedachte. „Een Nederlands volk ontstond pas ruwweg vanaf de
zestiende eeuw. Het is een romantisch idee dat het Nederlandse volk er
altijd is geweest”, zegt Marco Mostert, mediëvist aan de Universiteit
Utrecht, in het laatste nummer van *Historisch Nieuwsblad*.

Maar bij het ontstaan van dat volk en zijn cultuur – of, als u wilt, zijn
identiteit – zijn geografische factoren beslissend geweest – niet zozeer
Geyls strategisch-geografsche factoren als wel de geografische ligging en
gesteldheid van het land. En die verschillen van die van Vlaanderen, dat
trouwens, terwijl Nederland zijn ‘gouden eeuw’ beleefde, door de blokkade
van de Schelde gebonden bleef aan het continent.

Zouden zijn Europese collega’s vannacht Van Rompuy kiezen tot vaste
voorzitter van de Europese Raad, dan zou dat gezien kunnen worden als
Vlaanderens zoete wraak op Nederland, welks onofficiële kandidaat Balkenende
was.
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Fred!

It's great to hear from you again. Thank you very much for this interesting,
thought-provoking and very relevant piece. I appreciate it very much.

I hope you don't mind that I have categorized the thread as "History". It
seems that this is really what we are talking about here.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  7 01:01:31 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:01:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.DEC.2009.170131.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.17 (03) [EN]

Re achter, after

In East Brabant the word achternoen "afternoon" is still used these days,
though the r is left out and in the mind of the speakers the word is
preceded by an n. Thus: /nachtenoen/, as it is usually preceded by the
definite article 'den'.
There is also the expression "na de noen", pron. noë de noen.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 01:04:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:04:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.170448.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hello, you silent lot!

Here's a seasonal treat for you.

Tonight being the beginning of Hanukkah, I'm invited to *latkes* parties
tonight and tomorrow night. It's a usually delicious and greasy affair that
involves singing and "carrying-on."

This reminds me to ask if the equivalent, namely any kind of potato
pancakes, are traditional in any Lowlands culture, especially in the festive
season of the Northern Hemisphere winter.

*Latkes* (Yiddish: לאַטקעס, Hebrew: לביבה *levivah*, plural לביבות *levivoth
*) are traditionally eaten as a part of celebrating the eight-day Jewish
feast of Hanukkah (חֲנֻכָּה). They are usually accompanied by apple sauce
and sour cream.

My family in Northern Germany also had potato pancakes (Low Saxon *
Kartüffelpuffer*, *Kartüffelpannkoken*, Northern German *Kartoffelpuffer*, *
Kartoffelpfannkuchen*) as a favorite winter dish, often served on New Year's
Eve. They were made very much like *latkes*, but usually accompanied only by
applesauce (to cut the grease). I'm not sure if this is because my family's
culture owes much to Central and East European cultures or if other North
German families featured the dish as prominently. And what about our
neighbors to the west? And Britain?

Here in the United States it tends to be associated mostly with Jewish
tradition in general culture.

Happy Hanukkah and Advent!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 06:35:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:35:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.223555.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

On 11/12/2009, at 11:04 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

Tonight being the beginning of Hanukkah, I'm invited to *latkes* parties
tonight and tomorrow night. It's a usually delicious and greasy affair that
involves singing and "carrying-on."

This reminds me to ask if the equivalent, namely any kind of potato
pancakes, are traditional in any Lowlands culture, especially in the festive
season of the Northern Hemisphere winter.


The Irish of course have Boxty pancakes
e.g.

BOXTY PANCAKES
Peel wash and grate some potatoes, drain and measure.
For each cup of grated potato add 1 tspn salt, 1/2 cup flour, and enough
milk to make a fairly stiff batter.
Leave to stand for an hour then fry like pancakes, preferably in bacon fat.
The American Hash Brown and Polish Placki Kartoflane are made in a similar
manner. The former probably coming from Irish sources.
 Contrast with Latke.

According to the compendious BIG Oven application for iPHONE & TOUCH a
typical Latke recipe is
Potatoes  6 Large
Medium Onion grated
2 Eggs
1 1/2 tspns Salt
1/4 tspn pepper
1/2 cup flour.
Grate potatoes and remove excess liquid
Mix in rest of ingredients
Fry spoonsful until golden brown. Drain and serve hot.

The Swiss serve Roesti made from grated potatoes pressed well down while
frying in a skillet.

The Scots don't exactly have potato pancakes but they do have tattie scones.
These are rather thin triangular scones with potatoes mixed in and are
usually fried and served with a greasy breakfast of eggs, bacon, sausage
etc.
They are normally purchased from bakeries but here's a recipe...
Cook 1 lb (450 gm0 of floury potatoes in boiling salted water for about 20
minutes until tender. Drain well and mash.
Add 2 level tspns salt and 25-50 gms (1-2 oz) butter stir well in then stir
enough flour to give a stiff dough, about100 gm (4 oz).
Knead well, roll out, prick well with a fork,and cut into triangles. Those
sold in bakeries are oven baked at home they should be
fried in minimal oil 3-4 minutes a side until golden brown.
Serve with fry ups or split, butter, and eat while hot.
I recall in the 1940's a popular farewell phrase in Edinburgh was "Ta Ta"
women corrupted this to "Tatty Scone".

Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks a lot, Tom.

I often wonder what would have become of Northern Europe had the potato not
been introduced from the Americas.

Sorry, folks. When I wrote I was ahead of the calendar by a day. Hanukkah
will begin *tomorrow* (Friday) night.

Cheers!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 07:15:08 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:15:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.231508.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (02) [EN]

Scottish tattie scones are to me a simple dish made in a few minutes from
last night's leftover mashed potatoes. Make the potatoes into a ball and
roll it out thinly, sprinkling flou to stop it from sticking. Cut the circle
into quarters and dry fry on a griddle o rin a thick frying pan. Eat with
breakfast or by themselves spread with butter.

Sandy Fleming
Http://scotstext.org/ <http://scotstext.org/>

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

Ron,

Hi! And greetings from this silent member in Ethiopia!

Thanks for reminding me it is Hannukah ... and helping me with
tonight's menu plan (although the sour cream will have to be replaced
by yogurt, i guess). ... and yes, there WILL be apple sauce!

(PS been so busy here and now it is midterm time and time for first
projects to be due, so I am liable to be even busier in next couple
weeks!

BUT, I have picked out 2-3 of the students here who are excellent
story-tellers and will be asking them to sign The Wren in EthSL as
soon as well all get some free time. Maybe I can get that, and the
Indian SL version, all finished before we all get old and gray(er). )

mike || U C > || мика  || माईक || マイク || ሚካኤል
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++
          (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))
      Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program
      Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yo afaan wali galle malee, diina keenya il en manque.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, guys.

Good to know the Horn of Africa finally has, you Mike, and good news about
the Wren prospects!

Regards.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 08:02:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:02:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.000200.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (03) [EN]

On 11/12/2009, at 5:15 PM, Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Scottish tattie scones are to me a simple dish made in a few minutes from
last night's leftover mashed potatoes. Make the potatoes into a ball and
roll it out thinly, sprinkling flou to stop it from sticking. Cut the circle
into quarters and dry fry on a griddle o rin a thick frying pan. Eat with
breakfast or by themselves spread with butter.


During my years in Ghana we used to do the same recipe using yams as
potatoes were in very short supply up North.
There however they were made into scone sized but flatter cakes. While OK
they could never beat potatoes.
Britain's culinary bible "Good Housekeeping Cookery Book" however, while
acknowledging they can be made as Sandy suggests
claims they are much better when fresh hot potatoes are mashed and used
immediately. Sandy's recipe worked well for us.

 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 19:01:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:01:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.110159.0800.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

Hello Ron,

I remember that, due to the flour shortage, my mother used to bake potato
cakes during the war. The taste was all right. After the war this practice
was looked down upon and people returned to the traditional ingredients for
cakes.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Delectables"

Beste Ron,

Or shall I say "Oskarchen"?

You wrote:

My family in Northern Germany also had potato pancakes (Low Saxon *
KartÃπffelpuffer*, *KartÃπffelpannkoken*, Northern German *Kartoffelpuffer*,
*Kartoffelpfannkuchen*) as a favorite winter dish, often served on New
Year's Eve. They were made very much like *latkes*, but usually accompanied
only by applesauce (to cut the grease). I'm not sure if this is because my
family's culture owes much to Central and East European cultures or if other
North German families featured the dish as prominently. And what about our
neighbors to the west? And Britain?


For some reason, mentioning potatoes in a North European context inevitably
brings back images from "Die Blechtrommel", wonderful movie about the life
of Oskar Matzerath. In the beginning, Oskar narrates how two police officers
were searching for his grandfather. Oskar's grandmother spent her whole life
sitting on potato fields in Kashubia...therefore, his grandfather decided to
hide under her skirts. That day his mother was begotten...and so on. I
absolutely adore this movie, even though it's "dark" in more than one
respect.

Next to this, and "dark" as well, there's another beautiful piece of art,
where "Tüfte" are the main subject, "De Aardappeleters" by Vincent van Gogh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_Eaters

In my opinion, his best painting.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Delectables"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> I often wonder what would have become of Northern Europe had the potato
not been introduced from the Americas.

Notwithstanding Sandy's formal doubts regarding "what if"-situations and
definitely trying not to underestimate the importance of that Spanish
import, called potatoes, I'd like to think the lack of them would not
necessarily have been disastrous.

Instead of having to wait till the 21st century to sample noodles big time,
they could have just gotten our way a lot sooner.
Give me lamian (拉麵 , lagman) anytime.

Besides, China is now the largest potato-producer in the world ;=)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 12 00:25:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:25:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.162509.0800.>

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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (02) [EN]

I used to always think potatoe cake was an Irish dish until Polish freinds
of mine told me they got it from Germans - one of the few positives from
that particular relationship, lol - and the recipe is the same as ours.

Boxty is a variant, both very popular in the northern half of Ireland.
Locally in Offaly, a funny version which is basically a ball of flour in
breadcrumbs fried and tastes very watery is current.

Local chippers do a deep fried version which is not too bad, but the real
potatoe cake is the best.

Its known as Tattie Scones in Ulster Scots and Lallans, and Pretabred in
Hibero-English.

Tomás Ó Cárthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks for your contributions to the potato theme, guys.

What other foods do folks eat in this festive season?

I know that in many regions of the Netherlands and Northern Germany it is
traditional to eat kale in the Christmas season. Although we did like eating
kale in the winter months this was not specific to the Christmas season when
I grew up.

In the Netherlands and Belgium, *speculaas* is a traditional baked treat in
the Christmas season, known in Northern Germany as *Spekulatius*, also in
Scandinavia. In Walloon and French it became known as *spéculoos*, probably
imported via Western Flemish. Hasselt in Belgium is particularly known for
its *speculaas*. I believe that most types of Christmas baked goods
associated with Germany (e.g. *Lebkuchen* and *Christstollen*) are of
southern origin. Apparently, less sophisticated spiced baked goods of
similar types, namely gingerbread in the broadest sense, used to be eaten in
Northern Germany prior to the introduction of the *speculaas* from the
Dutch-speaking neighbors. As far as I know, those were called *peperko(u)ken
* ("peppercakes", also German *Pfefferkuchen*). These made their way to
various parts of the Hanseatic trade region, e.g. Danish *peberkager*,
Norwegian *pepperkaker*, Swedish *pepparkaka*, Latvian *piparkūkas*,
Estonian *piparkoogid*, Finnish *piparkakkut*. In Dutch and Afrikaans these
are called *peperkoek*. The Scots version is *gibbery*.

I can never take my family as typical, since three of my grandparents grew
up in the east (Mecklenburg-Lower Pomerania, Eastern Prussia, and
Lusatia-Lower Silesia) and the fourth (to whom I was not close) was raised
by a mother from Eastern Prussia.

We used to have potato salad with wieners on New Year's Eve, often on
Christmas Eve. We never had goose and only much later had turkey.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 12 23:48:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:48:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.12.DEC.2009.154855.0800.>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Further on the potato these ...

When I was a child my mother made two types of potato pancakes:

   - "Raw": Raw potatoes and onions are *finely* grated (unlike in the cases
   of *Rösti *and *latkes*), mixed with egg, salt and just enough flour to
   keep them together. They are formed into pancakes and then skillet-fried in
   oil until fully cooked inside and crispy on the outside.
   - "Cooked": Previously boiled potatoes are mashed, mixed with egg, salt,
   a good pinch of nutmeg and just enough flour to keep them together. They are
   formed into pancakes, then lightly dusted with flour and skillet-fried in a
   mixture of oil and butter until crispy on the outside.

The latke party last night (the first night of Hanukkah as well as Sabbath
Eve) was a large and wonderful affair. Almost 2000 *large *latkes were
cooked, and there were several enormous bowls of vegetable salad and fruit
salad, not to mention equally large bowls full of applesauce and sour cream.
There was a lot of music and children's activities. Hanukkah is, technically
speaking, a minor Jewish holiday based an an historical event. But in
America, in Britain and also in 19th- and early-20th-century Germany (in the
wake of Jewish assimilation and the establishment of Progressive Judaism*)
it came to be developed into a big deal, mostly to give Jewish children
their own festival of lights, fun and gifts.

* [The Reform Jewish movement was kicked off in earnest at the Bevis Marks
Synagogue in London (built 1701) and the New Temple in Hamburg (built 1818).
It really took off with large-scale European immigration to North America at
the turn of the 19th to the 20th centuries.]

Happy continuing Advent and Hanukkah!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 13 19:50:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:50:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.115011.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 December 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.12 (01) [EN]

In Ireland the raw is the Boxty and the cooked is the Potatoe Cake /
Pretabred / Tattie Scone

Tomás Ó Cárthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11. (03) [EN]

Taukieken is best' Stück Arbeit, man blot nich bi't Äten

Erinnert man sich an die Feiertage um die Weihnachtszeit und auch zum
Jahreswechsel, spricht man von *Vullbukabend, Vullbuuksabend. *

Wihnachtsabend is Vullbukabend, hadd de Jung' seggt, hadd' ick 'n Lif as 'n
Schünfack un 'n Mul as ne Kauh, denn kunn ick wat laten.

Vullbuuksabend m. Abend, an dem tüchtig gegessen und getrunken wird

1. Heiligabend, Weihnachtsabend: *Hüt is Vull-Buks-Abend för Minschen un
Veih.*

2. Ick weit dat noch von mien Kinnertied. Tau Wihnachten hebben wi tau
Middag äten:
    Boiled potatoes/Salzkartoffeln oewer leiwer flourig potatoes/mehlige
Salzkartoffeln.
    Vorweg  shicken soup/Hühnersuppe aus eigenem Hühnerbestand, Hauptgericht
    chicken breast /Hühnerbrust mit erwähnten flourig potatoes, dazu red
cabbage
    und etwas für den Leckerzahn  chocolate pudding with vanilla sauce, das
versteht
    jeder. * *(Uns' Äten wier woll mihr ein Arm-Lüüd-Äten.)

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert u. eigene Sammlung

** Und gestern "English Christmas Party Saturday Dezember 12 th, 2009" gab
es Köstlichkeiten zu genießen.

Wi serve at the table to start with:
Turkey with, Brussels Sprouts, *Roast Potatoes (lecker),*
Yorkshire Pudding, Stuffing,

and desert: Plum Pudding als Christmas Pudding gedacht.

On the buffet you will find:
Cakes and sweets: Christmas Cake, Apple Crumble, Eton Mess, Trifle,
Shortbread, Cream Scones, Christmas Pudding, Chocolate Crinkles, Minced
Pies.

Drinks: Tea, Coffee, Soft Drinks and Eggnogg (damit ich mit meiner
concertina
Quetschkomode fröhlich aufspielen konnte ..., denn am meisten trank ich
Eggnogg, sehr milde, und habe von allen leckeren Dingen Häppchen genossen,
lecker.

Anschließend sahen wir den Film "A Christmas Carol" natürlich auf Englisch.

Ein volles Haus und eine herrliche Begegnung mit Freunden der Engl. Sprache.

Für mich war es ein sogenannter *Vullbuuksabend.*
**
*Allen Freunden eine heitere Vorweihnachtszeit.*
**
Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 13 21:31:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:31:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.13 (03) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.133143.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Resources

Ik wull jo geern en Websteed vörstellen, an de ik arbeidt heff: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/>. Dat is en Wöörbook. Op Plattdüütsch. Gewiss
gifft dat al en poor Dutz plattdüütsche Wöörböker in't Internett. Aver keen
mit groten Ümfang, dat all Dialekten afdeckt un op dat du di verlaten
kannst. Dat Wöörbook ünner <http://deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/> hett al mehr as
45.000 Indrääg, aver dor sünd veel dubbelte mang un veel, wo du di an'n Kopp
krauen musst. Bi <
http://www.ndr.de/kultur/plattdeutsch/woerterbuch/index.html> kaamt de
Bidrääg ok von de Lesers. Dat is aver ok en Mangelmoos von Wöör, de de
Lesers intressant funnen hebbt un de se nu geern de Welt mitdelen wullen. <
http://www.drentswoordenboek.nl/> is en temlich good Wöörbook, aver blot
Drents. Dat sülve bi <http://members.home.nl/dialexicon/index.htm> un
Twents. Dat gifft en poor recht gode ole Wöörböker bi Google Böker
(Holsteinisches Idiotikon, Göttingisch-Grubenhagisches Idiotikon, Wörterbuch
der westfälischen Mundart etc.), aver in de kannst nich richtig söken. Dat
gifft keen Websteed, wo du seggen kannst: jo, dat is _dat_ plattdüütsche
Wöörbook.

Ik wull nu geern (un ik weet, dat ik dor veel vörheff...) en Wöörbook
hebben, dat blot Infos sammelt, op de een sik denn ok verlaten kann, dat all
plattdüütsche Dialekten afdeckt un dat nich blot en Wöörlist is, nee, dat en
richtig Wöörbook is mit allens bi un mit so'n Ümfang, dat dor tominnst
soveel insteiht as in en Wöörbook för Reisen oder in en Taschenwöörbook. Dat
dor tominnst de Wöör instaht, de een so allerdaags bi't Snacken höört un
bruukt. (Opstunns is mien Wöörbook dor noch wied von weg, dat ji dor nich to
veel verwachten doot.)

Ik müss dor nu toeerst maal en Ansatz finnen. Blot all möögliche
Schrievwiesen in all Dialekten un all Varianten un all Orthografien sammeln,
dat dee bedüden - weet nich - villicht en poor Millionen Indrääg. Dat geiht
nich. Also heff ik en Schridd trüch maakt. Ik wull nich de modernen Formen
opschrieven,  ik wull lever de Ooldsassischen (oder Vör-Ooldsassischen)
Formen opschrieven (in en phoneetsche Schrievwies). Un denn all de schaven
Luden chronoloogsch dor op anwennen bet ik de moderne Form heff (noch jümmer
in phoneetsche Schrievwies). Denn dor op en Orthografie-Funktion anwennen,
de de phoneetsche Schrievwies in en moderne Schrievwies ümwannelt. Mit disse
Methood lett sik elkeen Woord in elkeen Dialekt un Schrievwies dorstellen.
Höört sik na en malle Idee an. Ik weer dor toeerst ok nich övertüügt von. De
Idee harr ik toeerst 2006 (as wi an't Nadenken weren, wo't opbest weer mit
nds.wiktionary.org, dat wi dat in'e Gang kriegt. Wat wi nie in'e Gang kregen
hebbt [Wikis sünd en feine Saak för Nakieksels, aver en Schiet för
Wöörböker]). Dat hett denn noch dree Johr duert, dat ik dat utprobeert heff
(ik bün dor nu al söss Maand mit in'e Gang). Un dat klappt. Tominnst för dat
Noordneddersassische geiht dat good.

Opstunns ünnerstütt de Websteed blot vereenheitlicht Noordneddersassisch (de
Utglieksform, de wi veel op nds.wikipedia.org bruukt) un denn noch den
Dialekt von de Stader Geest (mien Heimatdialekt). Ik heff ok al Renderers
för dat Platt von'n Barnim un von de West-Veluwe schreven, aver de löppt
noch nich so astrein, de mööt eerst noch utbetert warrn. Maal en Bispeel,
woans de Wöör verscheden rendert warrt: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (Stader-Geest-Platt)
un <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (vereenheitlicht
Noordneddersassisch). Dat sünd de beiden Wöör 'baven/boben'.

För elk Woord sammel ik Infos ut de Wöörböker, woneem se dat Woord kennt un
bruukt. Ik heff Plattdüütsch in 118 Dialektrebeden indeelt. Disse Infos kann
een sik as Koort wiesen laten: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> un <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> för de Wöör 'up' un
'op'. De meisten Koorten sünd nich so vullstännig as disse. De meisten sünd
vör allen witt (witt steiht för: noch keen Infos vörhannen). Dat liggt dor
an, dat dat unbannig veel Arbeid is, de Infos ut de Wöörböker ruttosöken.

Opstunns lett sik de Websteed op Plattdüütsch, Düütsch, Engelsch un
Nedderlandsch instellen. Annere Spraken will ik ok geern tofögen, wenn dat
een för mi översett. Opstunns gifft dat op de Websteed en plattdüütsche
Definition von dat Woord (so as de Duden dat mit Hoochdüütsch maakt) un denn
noch dat Woord Hoochdüütsch översett. In miene Datenbank offline heff ik ok
noch Översetten na Engelsch, Nedderlandsch, Däänsch un Eestnisch (sorteert
na de Tall von vörhannen Indrääg). Aver de sünd op de Websteed noch nich to
sehn, dat sünd noch nich noog in'n Vergliek mit de Tall von hoochdüütsch
Översetten. Dat Wöörbook hett mehr as 8000 Indrääg mit mehr as 8500 indragen
Ünnerbedüden. De Tall von hoochdüütsche Översetten is 11.000. För Engelsch
heff ik blot 3500.

Wenn ji mal en längern Text sehn wüllt, de so rendert is, denn mööt ji jo
mal <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=text&name=tk>
(vereenheitlicht Noordneddersassisch) un <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=1&show=text&name=tk>
(Stader-Geest-Platt) ankieken. Dat is de Geschicht von'n Tuunkrüper.

Bet nu to kann de Websteed noch nich veel mit blot twee Dialekten un de
Websteed is ok noch nich offiziell rut (is noch beta). Aver theoretisch kann
dat Programm en Woord in all de 118 verscheden Dialekten op de Koort
ümwanneln. Ik mutt blot för jeden enkelten Dialekt en Renderer schrieven
(dat is nich wenig Arbeid, schall also noch en Stoot duern, bet ik dat trech
heff).

De Websteed is noch nich offiziell rut, aver wenn ji wüllt, dröfft ji geern
ok al anner Lüüd dorvon vertellen. Wenn ji dor wat to to seggen hebbt,
Fragen hebbt oder noch Ideen ans, denn man rut dormit. (Opbest aver nich
hier över de List, dat wi Reinhard nich to dull argert.)

Marcus Buck
--

I'd like to introduce to you a little website I created: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/>. It's a dictionary. For Low Saxon. Well, of
course there are dozens of dictionaries online for Low Saxon. But none that
is extensive, fully inclusive and reliable. The dictionary at <
http://deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/> has more than 45,000 entries, but many are
duplicates or dubious user submissions. <
http://www.ndr.de/kultur/plattdeutsch/woerterbuch/index.html> is user-fed
too and mostly a omnium-gatherum of words which users deemed fun to share. <
http://www.drentswoordenboek.nl/> is a really good dictionary, but limited
to Drents. Just the same for <http://members.home.nl/dialexicon/index.htm>
and Twents. There are some extensive dictionaries available on Google Books
(like Holsteinisches Idiotikon, Göttingisch-Grubenhagisches Idiotikon, the
Wörterbuch der westfälischen Mundart etc. pp.), but they are all not
searchable. So there's no single resource that can be called _the_ Low Saxon
dictionary.

So my (rather ambitious, I fear) goal was to create a site, that only
collects reliable information, that covers all dialects of Low Saxon, that's
not just a mere word list, but a full-fledged dictionary at least extensive
enough to cover all words that would be present in a travel or small pocket
dictionary. At least covering all the words you are likely to come across in
normal conversation. (At the moment my dictionary is still far away from
fulfilling this specs, so don't expect too much.)

So I needed an approach. Just collecting all the possible spellings in all
dialects and all variants and all orthographies would mean - I dunno - like
several million possible entries. That was no option. So I decided to do a
step back. Instead of storing modern word forms I rather note down the words
in their Old Saxon (or pre-Old Saxon) form (in a phonetic notation). Then I
apply all the sound shifts that occured since then in their chronological
order to arrive at the modern form (still in phonetic notation). Then I
apply an orthography function that renders the phonetic string into a modern
word. With this method I can render a word in any dialect and any
orthography. This may sound like a crazy idea. I was very sceptical of my
own idea too. I originally had this idea back in 2006 (when we were
considering the best way to create a meaningful dictionary at
nds.wiktionary.org, which never gained any momentum [cause wikis are great
for an encyclopedia, but crap for a dictionary]). It took three years until
I actually tried it (and I'm working on it since six months now). And it
works. At least for Northern Low Saxon the results are good.

Right at the moment the live website only supports General Northern Low
Saxon (a form that levels dialectal differences and is much used on
nds.wikipedia.org) and the dialect of the Stader Geest (which is my own home
dialect). I also already created renderers for the Low Saxon dialects of the
Barnim and of the West-Veluwe, but these still have some glitches that need
to be fixed first. To give an example of how the dialects are rendered
differently, have a look at <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (Stader-Geest-Platt)
and <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (General
Northern Low Saxon). It's the word 'baven/boben' meaning 'up, above'.

For each word I collect information from dictionaries about where the word
is known and used. Therefore I have grouped Low Saxon into 118 different
dialect areas. This information can be visualized in a map, e.g. <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> and <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> for the words 'up' and
'op' (meaning 'on, up'). Most maps are not as complete as this example. Most
of them are mostly white (that means: no info available yet) cause it's
quite a bunch of work to collect this information from the dictionaries.

At the moment the interface is available in Low Saxon, German, English and
Dutch. Other languages can be added too, if someone is willing to translate
it. At the moment for each word a definition in Low Saxon and a translation
into German are available online. In my database offline I also already have
collected translations into English, Dutch, Danish and Estonian (in
descending order of number). They are not online so far cause their number
is low compared to the number of German translations. The dictionary has
more than 8000 entries with more than 8500 submeanings. The number of German
translations is about 11,000. For English it is only 3500.

If you want an impression of a longer text rendered like that, see <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=text&name=tk> (General
Northern Low Saxon) and <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=1&show=text&name=tk>
(Stader-Geest-Platt). It's the wren story.

So far the usefulness of the website with only two available dialects is
limited and it's not officially launched (it's beta). But potentially it can
render a word in any of the 118 different dialects as defined by the dialect
areas you saw on the map. I just need to implement a renderer for each of it
(which is much work, so progress will be slow).

Although it is not officially launched yet, you are still free to share
information about the site if you like. If you want to comment on the site,
if you have questions or any ideas, feel free to write me. (Ideally
off-list, I don't want to mess the list.)

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 14 03:04:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:04:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.190455.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 December 2009 - Volume 04
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===========================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 > Subject: Delectables
>
> Thanks for your contributions to the potato theme, guys.
>
> What other foods do folks eat in this festive season?

We don't traditionally have Christmas in Scotland, but for the New Year
there's "black bun", which is a bit like a fruit cake but the fruit is
so dense the cake looks black. It's made a few months beforehand and
wrapped in a hard, thin pastry to keep the flavour and moisture in as it
matures.

Or these days you can just buy it from the shops!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Sandy.

That sounds very much like English plum pudding (a.k.a. Christmas pudding)
to me, also prepared months in advance and traditionally eaten in this
season. The sauce it's served with tends to contain a good bit of booze.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 14 22:55:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:55:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.DEC.2009.145548.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 14 December 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Delectables
>
> Thanks, Sandy.
>
> That sounds very much like English plum pudding (a.k.a. Christmas
> pudding) to me, also prepared months in advance and traditionally
> eaten in this season. The sauce it's served with tends to contain a
> good bit of booze.

Not really, a lot of fruit things are made by the the "seal up and leave
to mature" method, including Christmas cake. Black bun is quite dry,
like fruit cake, and you eat it as a cake, ie, from hand to mouth.

Plum pudding is soft-ish and served with brandy sauce and fire. Brandy
sauce is certainly very nice, right up there with my other favourite
English inventions like cider, perry and champagne  :)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Sandy.

I bet someone in Scotland has already come across the idea of deep-frying
black bun along with everything else under the sun.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 15 19:02:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:02:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.DEC.2009.110221.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Laaglanders,

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster.
 By extending a debate on and on, the filibuster tries to delay or even
prevent voting.

No surprise the word is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish
for freebooter) < flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 19:12:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.111222.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 01
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===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Herkunft Vor- und Zuname

Hallo Freunde,

heute habe ich eine Bitte.

Es ist mir bisher nicht gelungen, Herkunft und Bedeutung  (Vor- und Zunamen)
zu erkunden.
1.  Lionella    (Italien ?)
2.  Pegas      (slawisch ?)

So langsam stellt sich hier der Winter ein...

Hanne

----------

From: Tomás Ó Cárthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]

Charles Stewart Parnell was a master of the art!

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"*
- www.writingsinrhyme.com  :   ::: -Tomás on Facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=736687279>
:::  - Tomás Facebook Group<http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57170429046>

From: Hellinckx Luc
<luc.hellinckx at gmail.com<http://ie.mc567.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Laaglanders,

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster.
By extending a debate on and on, the filibuster tries to delay or even
prevent voting.

No surprise the word is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish
for freebooter) < flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 19:16:50 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:16:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.16 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.111650.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Tradition

Am 24. Dezember warten die (ungeduldigen) Kinder auf den Weihnachtsmann
(einst Rug'klas, rauher Nikolaus) und insbesondere auf die Gaben
(Geschenke).

Mit einem Zeitvertreib wollte man damals (sicher auch heute)die Kinder
ablenken.

Hölteritt: Ruf beim Nußspiel *Höltendroetick, *bei
welchem der eine Spieler entweder erraten muß, wieviel Nüsse der andere in
der Hand hält, oder ob diese eine grade oder ungrade Zahl ausmachen.


Höltendroetick
Hölteritt kloeteritt,
rad' mal woväl Noet sünd dit!
Hölteritt  kloeteritt,
grad, üngrad?

Als weitere Namen dieses Spiels treten auf:
Höltendröller Jb. 2, 123; Schill.;
Höltendräger  Stargard/Strelitz;
Höltendwäwing  Kreis  Waren;
Höltendroeder  Kreis Wismar/Metelsdorf;
Höltendrülling  Kreis Malchin/Stavenhagen, Kreis Waren;
Höltendriddick, -rr-  Kreis Rostock/Brud?;
Hölten Redder, Hölten Rüdder, Hölten Rödder, Carl Bartsch, Sagen,
            Märchen und Gebräuche aus Mecklenburg;
Hölten Rydder, Ernst Krüger, Die volksgtümlichen Pflanzennamen
            Mecklenburgs, in Arch. 70. Rostock 1916. - Zimmerflora
            Mecklenburgs, in Arch. 69. Rostock 1915;

Die Spielformel, welche mit von Frage zu Frage verstärktem  Schütteln der
Nüsse begleitet war, lautet bei  BRI (John Brinckman):
Grad odder üngrad? Höltendroetick! - Lat 'n drawen! - Dor dröwwt he hen!
Höltendroetick! - Lat 'n roeteln! - Dor roetelt he hen! - Tüm drüdden lat 'n
runscheln! Tüm drüdden, dor runschelt he hen! Höltendroetick! Grad' odder
üngrad'? - Höltendroetick! üngrad'.

hölten : hölzern
droeteln : zaudern, zögern, sich lange besinnen
droetick :  ?

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Is dis' Noet tau knacken ...

Gräuten von Noetknackersch'
Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 20:08:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:08:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (03) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.120828.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 03
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===========================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]

Am 15.12.2009, 20:02 Uhr, scraif Hellinckx Luc:

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster. By extending a debate on and on,
the filibuster tries to delay or even prevent voting. No surprise the word
is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish for freebooter) <
flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).


Heyl putsig, dat hädde ik nig dacht, dat uuse un juue friibüüter/-bouter hd.
'Freibeuter' dår pade för staun hewwet. Man lickers bin ik nu nig sieker, of
dat meer van »boutpeople« of van'n »büüte maken« kümt.

joachim
-- 
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yes, Luc, thanks a lot. Like our Joachim (Low Saxon: Jochen), I had not made
that connection. I suppose the "l" and the "s" make it difficult to suspect
a connection with "freebooter."

What I find particularly interesting is the intrusion of "s" which I suspect
happened in French at the time /s/ had begun to be "deleted" before stops,
thus in analogy with words like (*gustus* >) *goût* 'taste', (*castellum* >)
*château* 'castle', (*hospitale* >) *hôpital* 'hospital', *hôtel* 'hostel',
and (*stabilire* > *establir* >) *établir* 'to establish'.

Of course, English "freebooter" is believed to be a direct
pre-diphthongization Middle Dutch loan, at a time when "ij" was still
pronounced [i:] and probably before the "uu" to "ui" shift. The verb was/is
*vrijbuit* ("free-boot(y)") 'to plunder'. I assume that German
*Freibeuter*comes from the same source.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 17 02:27:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:27:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.182726.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

On 16/12/09, at 21:08, Lowlands-L List wrote:

What I find particularly interesting is the intrusion of "s" which I suspect
happened in French at the time /s/ had begun to be "deleted" before stops,
thus in analogy with words like (*gustus* >) *goût* 'taste', (*castellum*>)
*château* 'castle', (*hospitale* >) *hôpital* 'hospital',
*hôtel*'hostel', and (
*stabilire* > *establir* >) *établir* 'to establish'.


I can't give you a precise time frame for the "sublimation" of /s/ in French
(? 17th century or even later ?), but 16th century (written) French was
still using /s/ systematically it seems. The "vrijbuiter" loan probably
predates that period. Walloon still retains /s/ in some cases and Occitan
even more so. Southern Dutch "goesting, goeste" for "goût" (French for
taste) is another example.
Re "filibuster": an older French form is "fribustier". Maybe French
"bustier" interfered as well? If not, the /s/ may be explained as a case of
hypercorrection. If /s/ was on the way out first in Northern French, and
Central French got to loan something from the North, maybe they
automatically added an /s/, because they erroneously thought that the /s/
would have been omitted anyway.

Of course, English "freebooter" is believed to be a direct
pre-diphthongization Middle Dutch loan, at a time when "ij" was still
pronounced [i:] and probably before the "uu" to "ui" shift. The verb was/is
*vrijbuit* ("free-boot(y)") 'to plunder'. I assume that German
*Freibeuter*comes from the same source.


It does. The "uu" > "ui" shift can be described fairly accurately, both
geographically and chronologically. However, "buit" (in "vrij-buiter") is
precisely one of those very few exceptions that never obeyed this rule. Even
Brabantish, which has diphtongized more than you can shake a stick at,
"buit" is still pronounced "büüt" these days by (older) dialect speakers
(Kiliaan also testifies "buet"). There is apparently no agreement on a
further etymology of "buit", but some see cognates in Celtic languages.
"Buit" typically refers to the spoils of war, booty, so maybe it's a
substrate word that goes back to the days of the invading Indo-European
tribes, conquering older local populations? Taboo words, "Geheimsprachen" or
terms pertaining to criminal offense do sometimes lead a life of their own
and are much more resistent to phonological innovations.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 17 16:45:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:45:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (01) [DA-DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.084520.0800.>

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From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.16 (02) [DE]

Dat hett niks mit "Holt" un "hölten" tau daun.

Hölt een ryter för de purt  ( ein Reiter hält vor dem Tor )
Låt em inn  ( lass ihn herein )
Råå mål tau, wo veel sünt dår inn  ( rate mal, wie viele sind da drin )
Nutt, butt, jippstiert  ( steht hier für eins, zwei, drei )

So wör dat uns hiir in Niestat öwerläwert.

Quelle: Mein Großvater Heinrich Bruhn, geb.21.08.1880 in Marxdorf.

Viele Grüße
Uwe

Uwe Tychsen
D-23730 Neustadt in Holstein
tychsen at t-online.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Beste Uwe,


Dat is mi ’n besünnere Hœg’, dat du nu ook mit vun de Partie büst.


Og det er altid rart, når en ”platsnakker” deltager, som også kan sprogen
vores nordlige naboer.


Willkamen! / Velkommen!


Gröten / Hilsen,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (03) [EN-NDS]

Ich schließe mich dieser Diskussionsrunde gern an ...

Freibeuter
Synonymwörterbuch: Freibeuter siehe Seeräuber.
Unter Seeräuber fand ich Pirat, Korsar, Freibeuter + Flibustier, Bukanier,
Likendeeler.

Im DUDEN Etymologie der deutschen Sprache entdeckte ich folgendes. Das
Suchwort 'Freibeuter' fand ich unter Beute.
Nach Defination Beute, erbeuten, ausbeuten, im 19. Jh. das politische
Schlagwort Ausbeuter und endlich das Wort Freibeuter "Seeräuber" (mnd.
vributerer <u mit ->,  "Schiffsführer mit Vollmacht zum Kapern; Seeräuber",
zu vribute  "freigegebene Kriegsbeute"; entsprechend niederl. Vrijbuiter).

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Seeröwer, mod. Oft hd. -räuber, Pl. -s m. Seeräuber: pirata, praemiator
'Seerover, Fryebuter CHYTR.: Nathan Chyträus, Nomenclator Latino-saxonicus
denuo editus. Rostock 1613; 'unser land Gotland unde de stad Wisbu to de
tyd, do beyde . . .  de seerover . . . ingenommen hadden' (1399), - 'de
Seerover dar Go(e)tke Michel unde
Sto(e)rtebeker de Oversten van gewesen'.
Spottname der Darßer: Seeröwers; der Ribnitzer: Seeräubers;
Knabenspiel "Seeräuber spälen", auf Eisschollen fahren; auch scherzhaft für
Heringe.

Na denn , wohrt jug vör de Piraten!

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 06:55:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:55:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.12.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.225551.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity"

Beste Ron,

Truly wonderful article about life and death of a language...with a number
of Lowlands twists in it of course ;=):

Q and A: The Death of
Languages<http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/q-and-a-the-death-of-languages/>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language diversity

Thank you so much for sharing that article with us, dear Luc!

After some initial skimming I decided to read it more thoroughly tomorrow.
Obviously, it is on a subject near and dear to the hearts of many of our
fellow-Lowlanders. It would be quite suitable to announce even *if* there
were no direct reference to Lowlands languages (which is pretty much
impossible because of English). After all, the theoretical framework that
can be applied to most situations.

Today I killed a few minutes of 60 in a couple of bookstores and again had
to realize that not only books about language diversity intended for the
layperson but even those intended for academic readerships are sorely
lacking in accuracy, even those that by way of their titles make you assume
that they are be-all and end-all in the field. Most of the information is
either of date or is simplified to the degree of ridiculousness. For
example, Low Saxon is still portrayed as a German dialect group
distinguished only by the lack of sound shifts, west of it there's only
"Dutch" and "Flemish," Standard West Frisian is implicitly used in both the
Netherlands and Germany, Occitan is presented as the "Provençal dialects of
French," and languages like Picard and Walloon were not even mentioned. And
forget about Scots! The same goes for the European Languages Charter.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 06:57:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:57:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.225726.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (01) [DA-DE-NDS]

Hier noch 'n Nahklapp...

Wossidlo/Teuchert  Mecklenburgisches Wörterbuch

hollen : halten: Präs. holl, höllst, höllt, hollen; Prät. höll, hüll, auch
höl, hel; Prät. hollen.

hölten, hülten,jünger höltern hölzern. 1. attributiv von Gegenständen und
Geräten, welche aus Holz gefertigt sind

Höltenassenwagen m. Wagen mit einer massiv hölzernen Achse, auf welcher
Schamel Dreihschamel ruht. Höltenassig mit einer hölzernen Achse versehen.
Hölten Bratappel : Kosewort für die Geliebte.
Ein Herz hat jederman, un wenn't ok man 'n hölten is : beim Ausspielen einer
Herzkarte .  Oll  Höltern: sehr mageres Schaf. Höltenhaftig, schwerfällig an
Körper und Geist: he is so'n bäten höltenhaftig; höltenroedig: mit hölzernen
Rädern versehen; ne höltenroedig Klock : alte Wanduhr; Höltenstiert heit min
Pierd: im Hausstandreim; Höltentüffelbaß m. sehr tiefer Baß, usw. usw..

Ein fründlich Gräuten.

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 18:28:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:28:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.102809.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re Christmas Food

I have only just had time to read all the mails that have been piling up on
Christmas Fare and now that my mouth is watering I thought I would add my
pennyworth.

Thanks Goodness for Lidl! Now I can have an endless supply of Pfeffernüsse,
allerlei Arten Lebkuchen and Stollen which have been part of our family
Christmas since ever but used to have to be searched for as they were not in
easy supply in shops. So thanks again to Lidl!

But thanks also to the French whose chocolate chestnut log  Bûche de Noël is
also a staple at Christmas Tea. My children never like rich fruit cake and
so a Bûche always appears. And now they are grown up and have their own
families, they each get their own as a present - along with a Christmas
Pudding ( made during the Oct half term so all can stir in their own coin
and make a wish) with a large tub of Brandy Butter - ten times better than
Brandy sauce.

Whip 6oz of butter with at least 10oz icing sugar until it is light and
fluffy; drizzle in while still whipping brandy, until a soft white fluffy
cream is reached. Put into pot - lick the spoon. Lick bowl and put in
dishwasher. Lick fingers ( it really is that good!) Cover pot and keep in
fridge until needed. Bring out before starting dinner so that it reaches
room temperature.

We also have the traditional turkey but I have cheated twice now and bought
a boned turkey - it may not look as good but it is soooooooo easy to carve
and there's no red meat. Delicious.

Bread sauce is a must; as is cranberry sauce; we also love Hannover Sauce (
the best bit about turkey sandwiches for the rest of the week ; made with
liver and lemon it is the perfect compliment to turkey) and stuffing
dumplings made with suet ( Nierenfett) so they are nice and light. My
husband's family always ate Carrot Parsnip mash with their turkey, so we do
too. I make masses of it so it too can go into turkey sandwiches. We now
enjoy puréed Sprouts with chestnuts which are so different from ordinary
sprouts.

We too light our Christmas Pudding; and I have to run round the table while
it is still alight in order to ensure luck for the rest of the year. The
pudding ( one of 5 that I make) has well wrapped money to be found and of
course the pudding comes to the table adorned with a sprig of holly.

Mincepies; nuts; tangerines; liqueur chocolates... an open fire. And a cup
of tea because all the cooking is over.

Bliss!

Happy Christmas !

Heather

Worcester UK

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 18:29:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:29:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.18 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.102959.0800.>

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From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (03) [DE-NDS]

Denn möt wi dat wull richdi mit twee l schriiben:

Höllt een ryter för de purt  ( ein Reiter hält vor dem Tor )

Veelen Dank
un schööne Wiinachen

Uwe
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 19 06:12:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.18 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.221222.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L Traditions

Humorous portion of the Hannukah message I received below got me thinking.
Interestingly enough playing  a gambling game called PUT AND TAKE was common
practice in Scotland even when gambling was illegal.
Even grandparents spoke about it.
Tiny brass tops of dreidel form with several sides were sold in newsagents.
Instead of Hebrew characters they had stuff like
PUT ONE, TAKE TWO, PUT ALL, etc on the sides. I am convinced they were
adapted form the dreidel which I never encountered in Scotland
where Jewish folks were a very small minority.

Begin forwarded message:

The traditional Chaaunkah toy is a dreidel, a kind of top, which is a
misnomer, 'cause when you spin it, it always lands on its side, never on its
top. Little known "fact": When Cole Porter wrote, "You're the Tops," he was
attending a Chanukah party.

The Hebrew letters on the dreidel stand for the words Nays Gawdawl Hawyaw
Shawm, or in English, Made in Japan.

No, actually the words mean, "A great miracle was there." The miracle is
that there are any new customers left to buy more dreidels in each
successive year.

The dreidel game is a gambling gmae--you put in or take out a certain amount
of money from the pot according to which letter comes up when you spin the
dreidel. (Don't look for the joke--that part was true.) This is how Jewish
people teach their kids to count. (THAT was the punchline.)


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 19 06:15:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:15:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.221501.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (01) [EN]

Bäter wat in 't Liew as üm't Liew

Hm, Gänsebraten. . .

Die Weihnachtsgans läuft durch die Welt,
als ob sie keine wäre.
Dabei ist sie längst vorbestellt
für die Geflügelschere.

Sie wippt nur lässig mit dem Schwanz
und glaubt, sie lebt noch lange;
und vor dem Titel "Weihnachtsgans"
ist ihr bisher nicht bange.

Die Hausfrau kauft die Pfanne ein
und denkt: Bleib du nur friedlich.
Bald wirst du drin als Braten sein,
schön braun und appetitlich.

Die Weihnachtsgans läuft durch die Welt
und kleckert auf die Wiese.
Dabei ist sie längst vorbestellt
zu Klößen und Gemüse.

Autor: Peter Uhu (Sammlung. H. Hinz)

Gausbraden

De utnahmen Gaus waschen, binnen un buten mit Solt inrieben, mit schellte,
utsnäden Appel, inweckte Backplummen orer (un) Rosin füllen, toneihen, mit'n
bäten kolt Water in den' anwarmten Backaben schuben un brun braden laten.
Dorbi ofteens mit
dat Bradenwater begeiten. Toletzt de Soß anseimen, mit Soltkartüffeln un
sötsuer Rotkohl äten.
Man kann dat Füllsel ok mit räben Tweeback un 'n bäten Zimt un Zucker
afsmecken. De Soß dörf äwer nich söt warden. Een lütt Glas Rum dortwüschen
is nich verkiehrt.

Nun für die Hochdeutschen

Gänsebraten

Die ausgenommene Gans waschen, innen und außen mit Salz einreiben, mit
geschälten geviertelten Äpfeln und eingeweichten Backpflaumen oder (und)
Rosinen füllen, zunähen, mit etwas kaltem Wasser in die vorgeheizte Röhre
schieben. Unter häufigem Begießen goldbraun braten. Zum Schluß die Soße
binden, mit Salzkartoffeln und Rotkohl anrichten.
Man kann das Füllsel mit geriebenem Zwieback mengen und schwach mit Zimt und
Zucker abschmecken. Die Soße darf dadurch aber nicht süß werden. Ein
Gläschen Rum verfeinert die Füllung noch mehr.

Un achteran . . .

Meckelborger Götterspies

1 Pund utsteente orer inweckte Kirschen. 1/2 ölleres Swartbrot. 1/4 l
Slagsahn.
1 Tassenkopp vull Zucker. Rum.
Dat Swartbrot rieben, mit Zucker vermängeleern un düchdig natt maken mit
Rum.
Utsteente orer inweckte Kirschen öwer dat räben Swartbrot leggen, babenup de
söte slagen Sahn. Dat möt glieks upäten warden.

Auch dieses für die Hochdeutschen

Mecklenburger Götterspeise

500 g ausgesteinte oder eingeweckte Kirschen, 1/2 älteres Schwarzbrot, 1/4 l
Schlagsahne, 1 Tasse voll Zucker, Rum.
Das Schwarzbrot reiben, mit Zucker mischen und alles tüchtig mit Rum
tränken.
Ausgesteinte oder eingeweckte Kirschen über das geriebene Schwarzbrot
verteilen, obenauf die süße Schlagsahne. Dieses muß gleich aufgegessen
werden.

Literatur: Mecklenburgische Rezepte
Herausgeber: Mecklenburgisches Folklorezentrum Rostock (heute
Volkskulturinstitut) in
Zusammenarbeit mit dem Historischen Museum Schwerin.

Un wenn ein so richtig updischen künn, denn hett dat heiten: "Ät langsam,
mien Soehn, du glöwst gor nich, wat sick mit de Tied rinner drücken lett."

Ein Schaullihrer, de beten wat niglich (neugierig) wier, fröggt in de Schaul
einen
Jungen:"Wat bäden ji denn middags ümmer tau Huus?"
"Gor nicks", seggt de Jung'.
"Seggen denn juug' Vadder un Mudder ok nicks, wenn äten ward?"
"Jaa, de seggen wat."
"Wat seggt denn juug Vadder?"
"Kamt ran, Jungs!"
"Hm, un wat seggt juug Mudder?"
"Haugt rin, ji Löwen!"

Literatur: Sammlung "Lütt Bökerie" R. Wossidlo

Makt dat nich tau dull. Wat in fief Minuten upäten is, sitt later drei Maand
up de Hüften.

Liekers,  "Een god Stück Speck makt 'n fasten Kierl"

Hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 20:05:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:05:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.120540.0800.>

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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: Dangast - Wolgast

 Liebe Lowlanders,

neulich ist es mir tatsächlich passiert, dass ich die Namen der Städte
Dangast und Wolgast verwechselt habe. Dabei ist Dangast friesisch und
Wolgast slawisch. Zu Wolgast habe ich auch Hinweise auf die Wortherkunft
gefunden, zu Dangast nicht. Weiß jemand, was "Dangast" bedeutet und wieso
Dangast so heißt, beinahe wie Wolgast, das doch praktisch am anderen Ende
der Krone des plattdeutschen Eekbooms liegt? ;-)

Herzliche Adventsgrüße an alle!

Marlou

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 22:26:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:26:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.142642.0800.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: Dangast - Wolgast
>
> Liebe Lowlanders,
>  neulich ist es mir tatsächlich passiert, dass ich die Namen der Städte
> Dangast und Wolgast verwechselt habe. Dabei ist Dangast friesisch und
> Wolgast slawisch. Zu Wolgast habe ich auch Hinweise auf die Wortherkunft
> gefunden, zu Dangast nicht. Weiß jemand, was "Dangast" bedeutet und wieso
> Dangast so heißt, beinahe wie Wolgast, das doch praktisch am anderen Ende
> der Krone des plattdeutschen Eekbooms liegt? ;-)
>  Herzliche Adventsgrüße an alle!
>  Marlou
>
To "Gast":

 3.

    *Ortsname *

Der Name Holtgast entstand durch die landschaftliche Beschaffenheit des
Dorfgebietes. Während die erste Silbe „Holt“ auf einige Gehölze in der
Gemarkung hinweisen, gibt es für die zweite Silbe zwei
Deutungsmöglichkeiten. Denn das Dorf liegt mit den Nachbarorten Utgast und
Hartsgast auf einem großflächigen, verhältnismäßig fruchtbaren Geestrücken,
der sich durch abgelagerten Flugsand auf wasserundurchlässige
Geschiebemergelschichten nach den Saale- und Weichsel-Kaltzeiten bildete.
Solche Flächen nennt man in Ostfriesland “Gaste“ und anderswo auch “Esch“.
Zudem entstanden hier im zehnten Jahrhundert Gemeinschaftsäcker, die
ebenfalls mit “Gaste“ bezeichnet wurden. Davon abgeleitet lautete der
Ortsname bis ins 19. Jahrhundert „Holtgaste“. Später wurde daraus Holtgast
und bedeutet „bewaldeter Geestrücken“.
<http://www.holtgast-urlaub.de/holtgast-heimat-ag/geschichte/holtgast.htm>

Un to den Eekboom mööt wi ja man noch eben seggen, dat de Boom en düchtigen
Blitzschaden afkregen hett. Vörher weer Wolgast so temlich in'e Midd.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

Hallo Marlou und liebe Lowlanders,

es könnte ja sein, dass folgende Angaben dir noch nicht bekannt sind:

*Wolgast: *Altslawische Fischer- und Schiffersiedlung mit Kultstätte; Anfang
12. Jh. pommersche Burg und Burgsiedlung; Erhebung zur Stadt durch den
Pommernherzog um 1250 (1259 civitas); Seehandelsplatz (Hansestadt);
Schiffbau seit 19. Jh. (Peenewerft).
W. ist einer der Orte, den Missionsbischof Otto von Bamberg auf seiner
Pommernreise aufsuchte und der deshalb von den Chronisten und Biographen des
Bischofs schon zu 1123, 1125 und 1128 genannt wird: Die Viten haben Hologost
(a) und Ologost, Helmold von Bosau schreibt (1165/70 Woligost, -gast. Die
Urkunden bieten 1140, 1188 Wologost, 1186 Wolegost, 1197 Wolegast, 1229,
1259 Wolgust; seit etwa 1250 allgemeinn Wolgast (1250, 1331 usw.). Die
Formen *Walo-, Wala- *und* -gast  *(z. B. bei
Saxo und in der Knytlingasaga  vom Ende des 12. Jh.) stellen
Germanisierungen des Namens dar. - Man hat von dem altpolabischen
Personennamen  *Voligost, *der mit dem possessivischen Suffix  *- j -
*erweitert
wurde, auszugehen. Er steckt auch im Namen des  *Wulstbaches   *in
Thüringen.

Lit.: Städtenamenbuch der DDR  VEB Bibliographisches Institut Leipzig, 1986
       ISBN 3-323-00007-2

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolgast

www.stadtbibliothek.wolgast.de

http://www.dangast.com/

Wolgast ist eine Reise wert.

Herzliche Grüße

Hanne

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

Hallo Marlou!

Auf http://www.onomastik.com/forum/about990.html haben sich schon andere die
gleiche Frage gestellt – da gibt es eine recht umfassende Diskussion. In
Kürze: Die (west-) slawische Nachsilbe Gast leitet sich von slawisch “gost”
oder “gast” her (deutsche Bedeutung “Neuankömmling” oder “Gast”), welche
oftmals Bestandteil von Personennamen ist. In Ortnamen findet sie sich im
gesamten westslawischen Siedlungsgebiet. Das friesische “gast” (wie in
“Dangast” und noch über 20 weiteren friesischen Ortsnamen) entspricht LS
“Geest” = “hochgelegenes Ackerland “- Sollte gut zu Dangast passen –
scheinbar die einzige K&die;stengemeinde Ostfireslands die keinen Deich
benötigt, da sie auf einem eiszeitlichen Geestrücken liegt.

Julhälsningar från Sverige

Wolfram

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 23:27:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.152700.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hei folks!

My father asked me about any possible relations between the Hindu
mythological snake (or something) Nacar/nakar, as he had just been in
Thailand, and words like Latin niger (black) and its offsprings, Romance
words like nacar (nacre), and ther Germanic nicker, nykr, and similar (water
"ghost").
I figured the nacre-group probably wouldn't be related as the english etym.
dictionary traces it back to Arabic, but the others could theoretically be
related as far as I know, by sound-laws. But I don't have the right books
here to find out if it makes any sense; I personally think he's just making
folk etymologies but I can't prove him right or wrong. To this nakar(nacar?)
snake-creature in Sanskrit, could possibly be related English snake with
s-mobile or so, but again I am on too thin ice to suppose anything really.

Anyone ideas on this?

Cheers!

Diederik, Antwerp (temporarily)

PS thanks for the whole latkas-discussion! Last week, before I left home for
christmas this week I found a few potatoes I had to eat before leaving, so
inspired by the discussion here I decided to attempt some Rösti's for the
first time ever. They need some more refining and tweaks, but were pretty
okay and it was a great idea to try. More cheers!

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (02) [DE-NDS]

Ha!, liebe Lowlanders, klasse, vielen Dank! Gast = Geest, das leuchtet mir
spontan ein! Die Erklärung für das slawische -gast hatte ich auch schon
gelesen und nur zur Kenntnis genommen, da ich keine slawische Sprache
beherrsche und da also kein Sprachgefühl "aus dem Bauch" antwortet. (Sehr
schade, ich wollte immer mal eine slawische Sprache lernen.) Aber bei
Gast/Geest kommt die volle Resonanz des großen "Ahaaa!", ein schönes Gefühl.
Upps, mir geraten hier die Metaphern außer Kontrolle :-)

Danke auch für das Link zu der Onomastik-Seite, lieber Wolfram, die kannte
ich noch nicht und habe sie gleich in meine Lesezeichen aufgenommen.

Was den Eekboom und seine Originalbreite angeht, der reckt doch vun
Pommern bet Nederland, nicht? Ist Wolgast nicht schon Pommern? Vorpommern
jedenfalls, und das nicht zu knapp?
Ist das Ostpreußische Niederdeutsch eigentlich richtiges Niederdeutsch? Kann
man die Breite des Eekbooms in Längengraden angeben? Ich könnte mir denken,
dass sie gerade auf der östlichen Seite öfters geschwankt hat, oder? Pommern
ist groß -- an welche Grenzen des Eekbooms hat Reuter zu seiner Zeit
gedacht?

Hartlich Dank & Gröten!

Marlou

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 02:15:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:15:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.181547.0800.>

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From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

Sanskrit *naga *(in religion and myth a race of wise serpent beings who live
under the sea and deep within the earth).  Originally IE *snaga -- unvoiced
in English as snake, and thus evidently in the Thai pronunciation of
Sanskrit/Pali.
RK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thank you, Robert.

The Low Saxon cognate is *snake* ["snA:ke] ~ *snaak* [snA:k].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: All of you that celebrate it, please have a very happy Christmas and
travel carefully if you must travel!

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 02:17:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:17:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.181700.0800.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

 From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Was den Eekboom und seine Originalbreite angeht, der reckt doch vun
Pommern bet Nederland, nicht? Ist Wolgast nicht schon Pommern? Vorpommern
jedenfalls, und das nicht zu knapp?
Ist das Ostpreußische Niederdeutsch eigentlich richtiges Niederdeutsch?

 Absolut! Wenn een sik en beten mit de Dialekte befaten deit, denn markt
een, dat Pommern veel von Westfalen un deelwies von de Nedderlannen afkregen
hett (lang nich so dull as de Mark Brannenborg, aver dat is doch to marken),
Prüßen hett mehr von dat Noordneddersassische afkregen. Wenn de Prüßen nich
so'n snaaksche Utspraak harrn, denn weer dat temlich ähnlich mit de Spraak
in Neddersassen, Holsteen oder Mekelborg.

 Mal en Bispeel (Heinrich Toball, 1892):
*Ön dem Ermland gew man fröher
Jude nie dat Börgerrecht,
Körte Tiet nur kunnes bliewe,
Wenn de Steuer wär geblecht.

Wär de Fröst om, mußtes wedder
Ön dat Utland reise schnell,
Keeme bold torüg von dissem
Noah de ole Nohrungsstell.

Wer von Zinten keem, kunn segge,
Dat he wär öm fremde Land,
Darom wurd on wat noch hiede
Zinten „Utland“ nur genannt.*
<http://wikisource.org/wiki/Ostpreussische_Sagen_und_Schw%C3%A4nke/Dat_Utland><http://wikisource.org/wiki/Ostpreussische_Sagen_und_Schw%C3%A4nke/Dat_Utland>

 De Oostprüüß maakt ut 'i' en 'ö' ('ön'), lett dat 'n' an't Enn von Wöör ut
('bliewe'), maakt ut 'u' en 'o' ('on') un ut 'ü' en 'i' ('hiede'). Poor Wöör
sünd verhoochdüütsch ('Steuer', 'geblecht', 'genannt', 'nur'). De
Wenker-Koort to 'nur' wiest aver, dat ok in Oostprüßen 'man' gellt hett un
dat dit 'nur' nich generell gellt. De Rest is allens normal Plattdüütsch.

Pommern ist groß -- an welche Grenzen des Eekbooms hat Reuter zu seiner Zeit
gedacht?

 Reuter schrifft worraftig von Pommern un ik weet nich, wo he de Grenz
treckt hett. Aver recht hett he dor nich mit.

Kann man die Breite des Eekbooms in Längengraden angeben? Ich könnte mir
denken, dass sie gerade auf der östlichen Seite öfters geschwankt hat, oder?

 Wat meenst du denn mit "geschwankt"? Schwankt in'n Sinn von "hen un her" is
dor nich veel. In enkelte Dörper hett dat veel Spraakkuddelmuddel geven.
Schall woll ok vörkamen hebben, dat en Dörp in de een Generatschoon vör
allen Platt weer un twee Generatschonen later weer wedder Litausch de Spraak
von de Mehrheit. Aver wenn wi dat grote Ganze ankiekt, denn hett Platt
jümmer mehr Land towunnen. Dat weer sogor in't 20. Johrhunnert noch jümmer
so, dat Litauers un Masuren jemehr Spraak opgeven un Platt as Spraak
annahmen hebbt. Ik heff vör en Tied en Book ut de eerste Tied von't 20.
Johrhunnert leest, dor hett sik so'n national instellten Hoochdüütschen
beklaagt, dat de Germanisierung von Masuren nich so recht vörankummt,
vonwegen dat de Masuren blot dat Plattdüütsch annehmt, aver keen önnig
Hoochdüütsch lehrt.

 Dat düütsche Riek weer in'n Noorden in Nimmersatt to Enn. Nimmersatt hett
keen Wenker-Bagen bi DIWA, aver tominnst ut Truschellen hebbt wi en
plattdüütschen Wenker-Bagen. Truschellen heet vondaag Trušeliai un liggt
mehr as 50 km binnenlands in Litauen. Von dor na Wolgast sünd dat üm un bi
675 km. Von Wolgast na Bunschoten sünd dat üm un bi 715 km. Wolgast is also
temlich de Midd.

 Wenn du dat op en Koort sehn willst, denn heff ik ok wat:
<http://wiki.marcusbuck.org/Koort/Koort.php><http://wiki.marcusbuck.org/Koort/Koort.php>

 Dor heff ik de Rebeden intekent, in de Plattdüütsch snackt warrt. De blauen
Grenzen wiest de Spraakgrenz, so as de Wenker-Atlas ehr wiest. Wohrschau:
Twischen Danzig, Brombarg un Posen fehlt de Kaschuubschen un Poolschen
Spraakrebeden, dor warrt nich överall Platt snackt. In Masuren fehlt de
Grenz noch.

 De lütten grönen Placken sünd plattdüütsche Dörper in Polen. De dree roden
Lienen bi Halle Leipzig wiest de ole Spraakgrenz in't Middelöller un in de
fröhe Neetied so as se bi Carl Winderlich: Deutschland. Ein vollständiges
Handbuch für die Kunde des Vaterlandes. 1852,
<http://books.google.com/books?id=IFYAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA359><http://books.google.com/books?id=IFYAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA359>un
bi Sprachgeschichte: ein Handbuch zur Geschichte der deutschen Sprache
und ihrer Erforschung,
<http://books.google.de/books?id=DZwbJjFlqJYC&pg=PA2455><http://books.google.de/books?id=DZwbJjFlqJYC&pg=PA2455>angeven
is.

 De plautdietschen Rebeden sünd ok intekent. Üm dor hen to finnen, gifft dat
hier Links:
<http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker_Diskuschoon:Slomox/Plattgrenzen#Direktlenken><http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker_Diskuschoon:Slomox/Plattgrenzen#Direktlenken>
.

 Marcus Buck

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 16:07:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:07:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.080706.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]

When and where did the Germanic snake/slang division occur? I hadn't
realised there was a Lowlands "snake" being only familiar with Afrikaans and
some Dutch. I'd assumed English snake was related to Norse "snekja".

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Etymology

Good question, Paul. Modern Low Saxon has both *slang* and *snaak* for
"snake", but in Old Saxon and Old Low Frankish I can only locate *slanga*.

I wonder if Low Saxon *snaaksch* and Dutch *snaaks* 'droll', 'weird', were
derived from *snake* > *snaak* 'snake' (thus *"snakish").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: From now on days are getting longer in the Northern Hemisphere!

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 16:34:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:34:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.083442.0800.>

===========================================
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]

Leve Marcus, danke för de intressanten Infos! Vun dat oost- un
westpreußische Platt harr ik al mal so'n poor Bispelen höört, de mit
hoochdüütsche Wöör (sünnerlich Partizipen mit ge-) dörwussen weern, un harr
Twievel kregen. De Wöör eenfach to subtraheern un den Rest to bekieken, op
de Idee weer ik nich kamen.

Ik harr sachs instinktiv annahmen, Reuter harr "vun Pommern bet Nederland"
exklusive meent, he hett dat avers anschienend inklusive meent -- also dat
Pommern un Nederland noch dortohöört. Dat weer denn wohl dat "politisch
korrekte" Denken, denn mennig Nederlänners höört dat nich geern; avers
tominnst deelwies stimmt dat ja.

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Sunject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Marlou und Marcus, dir auch Ron,

Jeder Diphthong ( Sprache) besteht aus zwei Vokalen, die beide den ihnen
eigentümlichen Klangcharakter zwar erkennen lassen, alleinn durch rasche
Verschmelzunng zu einer Klangeinheit neutralisiert werden.
Im Gesaange treten wesentliche Modifikationen ein, die das klangliche
Verhältnis der Stammvokale bezüglich ihrer musikalischen Zeitwerte zu
einander erst endgültig bestimmen.

Also z.B. : sprich das Wort "Ei"   AE = Ei

Man sagt auch, kein Diphthong wird so gesprochen wie er geschrieben ist (es
mag wohl Ausnahmen geben?).

Der Ostpreuße spricht das Wort "Ei"   e: i

Marjalchen mit das jalbe (gelbe) von das Ei (e: i)

Im Hochdeutschen spräche man Ei  (AE = Ei)
Es steckt in diesem Diphthong stets ein Anlaut A, niemals aber ein E, wie es
verschiedene Dialekte sprechen.

Lit.: DER KLEINE HEY  EDITION SCHOTT 614  B. Schott's Söhne, Mains

Zu dem Sprachenbaum Niederdeutsch zählt auch das Plattdeutsche aus
West/Ostpreußen, es ist der östliche Teil der Sprachgrenze.

Die Schwiegertochter meiner Pflegeeltern stammte aus Prökuls (Memel), sie
sprach aber lieber Litauisch mit ihrer Schwester  (also, was nicht für
unsere Ohren bestimmt war).

Die Sprachgrenze Plattdeutsch Mecklenburg/Pommern bildet bei Ribnitz die
Recknitz
(Fluß). Es gab auch gelegentlich Streit zwischen Mecklenburg und Pommern

Mit der Zeit verschmelzen unbewußt anders lautende Klangfarben.
Meine Freundin spricht das Pommern-Platt, es sind geringe Unterschiede
zwischen beiden Sprachen (Mundarten, niemals Dialekte).
Meckl. "De Sünn geiht ünner", Pommern "De Sunn geiht unner".

Die Sprachwissenschaftlerin Prof. Renate Herrmann-Winter arbeitet an einem
Wörterbuch (Plattdeutsch Pommern), es wird wohl bald erscheinen.

Hinweis: Hans Joachim Gernentz
               (Professor UNI Rostock,
                ich kannte ihn persönlich,
                heff oft mit em vertellt)

                Niederdeutsch-gestern und heute

                Beiträge zur Sprachsituation in den Nordbezirken
                der DDR in Geschichte und Gegenwart

               Erschienen bei Hinstorff Rostock 1980

Es stimmt mich aber auch gelegentlich traurig, was man heute unserer plattd.
Sprache so andichtet... und wir haben für sie gekämpft!

In Freundschaft.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Language varieties

Leve Hanne,

Du schreevst:

Marjalchen mit das jalbe (gelbe) von das Ei (e: i)

Dat is (Oost-)Hoogprüßisch  (villicht 'n Slag oostprüßisch Missingsch), nich
(Oost-)Nedderprüßisch, meen ik. Man den [e:i]-Luud hebbt se beid' gemeen. De
mehrsten Luden gifft 't ook in't Westprüßische, un daar höört dat
mennonitsche "Plautdüütsch" mit to.

Man Wöör as ("Margell" >) "Marjall(che(n))" ("Deern") sünd oostprüßisch un
kaamt uut de baltschen Spraken, besünners uut 't Oldprüßische
(*mērgā*'Deern', vergl. litausch
*merga*, *mergaitė*).

Grötens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 17:55:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:55:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.095525.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (01) [EN]

Ick bün all wedder dor, ok wenn't üm de Snaken geiht . . .

R. Herrmann-Winter  Plattdeutsch-hochdeutsches Wörterbuch:
Schnak, Snak m. (das  m  steht da wirklich). 1. Schlange allg. speziell
Ringelnatter, aber auch Kreuzotter, Pl. Schnaken.  - 2. große Mücke: de
Schnaken bieten hüt.
Schnakenkrut n. Gemeiner Wurmfarn, Aspidium filix-mas (L.)

Wossidlo/Teuchert  Mecklenburgisches Wörterbuch (seggt mi mihr tau).
Snak, Pl. -en, Snoek f. Ringelnatter, natrix natrix
Snake Monschr. 1789, S. 1049; Schnahk 1791, S. 338;
Een Scheperknecht . . . . hett all' de Snoek oewerhäben (d.h. wegbannen)
wullt.
Schimpfwort: Swich, du vordumende snake!'  Redensarten: verleewt as ne Snak;
de hett de Snak bäten (eine Schwangere); Sort bi Sort, säd' dei Düwel un
sortierte Poggen un Snoek (as Sinnbild von dei bösen Seelen); Volksglaube:
Snaken pedden (begatten) dei Aanten (1881) Hagenow/Gülze; de Drak is as ne
Snak,  Waren/Ullrichshusen; Snaken un Addern (Kreuzottern) sind in der
Pferdekrippe eines Bauern, der einen Kobold hat,  Schönberg/Grevesmühlen;
'sede ene snaken' als Arzneibestandteil gegen Aussatz (Rostock. Arzn); man
soll drei Snaken, drei Addern, drei Hucksen (Kröten)  vör de Sünn gripen
und daraus eine Salbe kochen, Waren/Jabel; eine Snak zeigt ein
untergegangenes Schloß an,  Waren;  Knabenspiel: Snaken lopen laten,  eine
Leine in Windungen drehen,  Wismar/Gersdorf.
Flurname: Snakenbarg, -borg, -brauk, -brügg', -busch, -grund, -hüürn,
-koppel, -kul, -lank, -muur, -soll, -start, -togg, -wirel, -wisch.
Zss.: Äuwer-, Eik-, Watersnak. - Mnd. snake.
Snakadder f. wie Snak; Snakenangel  f. Natternzunge, Rostock;
Snakenfell n. Schlangenhaut, als glückbringend betrachtet.
Schlangenzunge soll man lebendig herausreißen und in die Peitschenkappe
wickeln, denn trecken de Pir för dull;  Redensart: dat is ne richtige
Snakentung' , von einer Frau, die Falsches über andere redet; Gemeiner
Natterkopf, echium vulgare E.Krüger, Syn.:
blag' Preuß, Sugels-, Tütenblaum.

Na, dat hürt sick je snaaksch'  (sonderbar) an, nu is naug (gekürzt).

Ick slängel mi nu weg.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 19:09:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:09:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.110955.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2009 - Volume 04
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===========================================

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: Umfrage / Sprachatlas

Leve Lüüd,

schaut doch hier
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/ada/runde_7/
 mal rein. Die machen Umfragen, um Sprachkarten zu erstellen und suchen
Leute, die mitmachen. Die Ergebnisse der bisherigen Runden sind auch
interessant. Besonders die der sechsten Runde, in der ermittelt wurde,
welche Dialekte sich untereinander als nah bzw. fern empfinden.

Ich hoffe auf rege Teilnahme.

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (02) [DE-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]
>
> Leve Marcus, danke för de intressanten Infos! Vun dat oost- un
> westpreußische Platt harr ik al mal so'n poor Bispelen höört, de mit
> hoochdüütsche Wöör (sünnerlich Partizipen mit ge-) dörwussen weern, un harr
> Twievel kregen. De Wöör eenfach to subtraheern un den Rest to bekieken, op
> de Idee weer ik nich kamen.
>
Feinen Trick, ne! Allens as Utnahmen wegstrieken, wat de egen Theorie nich
stütt, un de Rest bewiest denn de Theorie ;-)
Aver is ja man meist dat sülve as mit dat Hoochdüütsche: Wenn ich mit meinem
Minicar durch die City cruise oder im Browser meine Downloads checke, denn
sünd ok 'ich', 'mit', 'oder', 'meine' etc. de wichtigen Wöör, de uns wiest,
wat dat för'n Spraak is. Hoochdüütsch hett en Masse Anglizismen un
Oostprüßisch hett/harr en Masse Hoochdüütschismen. Un jüstso as du bi
Hoochdüütsch ganz ahn Anglizismen utkamen kannst, wenn du dat richtige Thema
nimmst un di en beten Möh giffst, kannst du ok Oostprüßisch ahn
Hoochdüütschismen bruken.

 Ik harr sachs instinktiv annahmen, Reuter harr "vun Pommern bet Nederland"
> exklusive meent, he hett dat avers anschienend inklusive meent -- also dat
> Pommern un Nederland noch dortohöört. Dat weer denn wohl dat "politisch
> korrekte" Denken, denn mennig Nederlänners höört dat nich geern; avers
> tominnst deelwies stimmt dat ja.
>
Bi de Nedderlannen hebbt wi twee Saken: Wenn wi na'n Stamboom gaht, denn
sitt Plattdüütsch in Düütschland un Nedersaksisch in de Nedderlannen op'n
sülven Telgen. Nedersaksisch is na'n Stammboom veel dichter mit Plattdüütsch
verwandt as mit Hollandsch.
Dat lett sik licht wiesen bi en poor Saken, de temlich oold sünd: To'n
Bispeel de Ümluud bi de Wöör Höövd/Haupt/hoovd. Hoochdüütsch un
Nedderlandsch hebbt all beid keen Ümluud, Plattdüütsch un Nedersaksisch
hebbt em. De Isogloss löppt von Bunschoten na Ulft. De Ünnerscheed liggt dor
an, dat Ooldsassisch hôbið harr, Ooldfranksch aver hôbeð. Dat 'i' hett för
den Ümluud sorgt. En anner Bispeel sünd de Verben so as 'he löppt'.
Plattdüütsch/Nedersaksisch hebbt en korten Vokal mit Ümluud, Hollandsch hett
en langen Vokal ahn Ümluud ('hij loopt'). De Isogloss löppt von Nunspeet na
Ulft. Drüdd wichtig Bispeel is de Eenheitsplural. Löppt ok von Bunschoten na
Ulft.

De twete Saak is aver, dat Nedersaksisch veel von dat Hollandsch övernahmen
hett un Plattdüütsch veel von Hoochdüütsch. To'n Bispeel sowat as dat
Hollandsche 'jij' för 'du', wat sik al bet an de politsche Grenz utbreedt
hett (blot Groningen hett noch 'du' [doe]). Faken sünd Wöör, de dat
Nedersaksisch kennt hett, aver Hollandsch nich, in't Nedersaksisch
utstorven. Wöör, de dat Plattdüütsch kennt hett, aver Hoochdüütsch nich,
sünd in't Plattdüütsch utstorven. Dat Woort 'umtrent' hebbt se fröher in't
Nedersaksisch, Plattdüütsch un Hollandsch kennt, aver nich in't
Hoochdüütsch. Nedersaksisch warrt dat noch jümmer bruukt, denn dat Woord
warrt dör dat Hollandsch stütt. Plattdüütsch is 'umtrent' utstorven. Jüstso
dat Woord 'bubbel' för en Blaas. Nedersaksisch is dat bleven, Plattdüütsch
utstorven.
En anner Ding is denn noch de Klangfarv. Plattdüütsch hett faken den Klang
von dat Hoochdüütsche övernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'schwart' för öller 'swart'
oder 'boben' för öller 'boven'. Nedersaksisch hett fakener den Klang von dat
Hollandsch övernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'omtrent' för öller 'umtrent' oder de
besünnere hollandsche Utspraak von dat 'g' oder dat 'sch'.
Un dat drüdde, wat Nedersaksisch un Plattdüütsch trennt, dat sünd de
direkten Övernahmen un Neologismen. Sowat as 'informatie' vs.
'Informatschoon' oder 'Verwalten' vs. 'bestuur' oder 'hulpbron' vs.
'Ressource'.

En nedersaksischen un en plattdüütschen Buurn, de sik över de Bueree
ünnerhollt, hebbt wohrschienlich keen groot Problem mitenanner. Wenn sik
aver en Nedersaksen un en Plattdüütschen över Politik oder Technik
ünnerhollen wüllt, denn warrt dat swoor.

Marcus Buck

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 23 17:03:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:03:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.090348.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject. LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Heiko,

ich habe Deinen Vorschlag gleich in die Tat umsetzt und an der 7. Runde
teilgenommen. Der Fragenkomplex könnte noch etwas erweitert werden
(Norddeutschland, Meck-Pom). Also, abwarten.

Grüße aus Schwerin.

Hanne

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:31:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (02) [DE]
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]

 Lieber Heiko, Hanne und Marcus,

danke für die tollen Hinweise! Ich habe sofort an der Sprachumfrage
teilgenommen und sage nie wieder was gegen das Platt der Ostpreußen sagen
:-) Gibt es eigentlich öfters bezüglich Platt dieses Merkmal, dass Flüsse
wie die Recknitz oder landschaftliche Gegebenheiten eine Sprachgrenze bilden
(Isogloss! Ha! Weiß ich seit Neuestem :-))? Zeichnen sich die von Dir,
Marcus, genannten Isoglossen durch irgendwelche äußeren Merkmale aus?

Dass diejenigen Wörter, die von der jeweiligen "Hochsprache" gestützt
werden, nicht aussterben, ist ein interessantes Ergebnis.
Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden Länder an
der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
hört, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.

Was bedeutet eigentlich 'umtrent'?

Liebe Grüße!

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Marlou,

Du schriebst:

Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden Länder an
der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
hört, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.

Das finde ich auch, habe auch die selbe Frage.

Und ...

Was bedeutet eigentlich 'umtrent'?

"Ungefähr". Von dort ist es ins Skandinavische gedrungen, z.B. Dänisch *
omtrent*.

Frohe Weihnachten!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 23 23:06:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:06:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.150632.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 December 2009 - Volume 03
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (02) [DE]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 danke für die tollen Hinweise! Ich habe sofort an der Sprachumfrage
> teilgenommen und sage nie wieder was gegen das Platt der Ostpreußen sagen
> :-) Gibt es eigentlich öfters bezüglich Platt dieses Merkmal, dass Flüsse
> wie die Recknitz oder landschaftliche Gegebenheiten eine Sprachgrenze bilden
> (Isogloss! Ha! Weiß ich seit Neuestem :-))?
>
Dat gifft dat fakener. Dat gellt jümmer denn, wenn de Geografie den Verkehr
twischen de Rebeden stöört. Dat Saterland to'n Bispeel weer al lang kumplett
Plattdüütsch wesen, wenn dat nich merrnmank in en Moor legen harr. To Foot
kunnst du narms hen un so sünd de Fresen ünner sik bleven. Ik kenn dat ok ut
mien egen Dörp. Dat liggt an de Oost. Över de Oost gifft dat bi uns keen
Brügg. Wenn wi na uns Naverdörp "op de anner Sied Oost" föhren wüllt, dat 2
km weg is, denn mööt wi meist 20 km föhren över de nächste Brügg.  Dat is
also en temlich groot Hinnernis. Geografie kann aver nich blot trennen, de
kann ok verbinnen. Fröher weer de Oost noch keen Verkehrshinnernis, dor weer
se noch Verkehrsweg för de Scheep. Gauer as mit'n Scheep kunnst dunn nich
vörankamen. Dor liggt dat wohrschienlich ok an, dat dat Plattdüütsch an de
Küst överall temlich ähnlich is. In't Binnenland, in Westfalen un Oostfalen
gifft dat veel mehr "Fragmentierung".

 Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen durch irgendwelche
> äußeren Merkmale aus?
>
Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "äußere Merkmale"?

  Dass diejenigen Wörter, die von der jeweiligen "Hochsprache" gestützt
> werden, nicht aussterben, ist ein interessantes Ergebnis.
> Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden Länder an
> der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
> zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
> hört, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.
>

Dor hest du recht, good för de Spraak is dat nich. Aver "Rezept" is nich dat
richtige Woord, dat deit ja nüms extra. De Lüüd hoolt sik an dat, wat se
kennt. Nüms, ok nich de modersprakigste Moderspraken-Plattdüütsche von'n
olen un öllsten Slag, kann vondaag noch sien Alldag "bewältigen", ahn dat he
sik mit Hoochdüütsch utenannersetten mutt. Un wenn Minschen jümmer mit twee
Spraken to doon hebbt, denn rüddelt sik de Woordbiller so lang torech, bet
dat se op Pass liggen doot. Mein Punkt ist, dass viele Hochdeutsche, die mit
Englisch zu tun haben, gar nicht mehr realisieren, dass manche Wortbilder
gar keinen Sinn machen, was manches Mal komische Seiteneffekte hat. Denn "my
point is" müsste doch mit "mir geht es darum" übersetzt werden, "to realize"
mit "bemerken", "to make sense" mit "sinnvoll sein" und "side effekt" mit
"Nebeneffekt" oder "Nebenwirkung". Ji markt, dat Uteneenholen von de Spraken
is nich so licht ;-)

Dat gifft aver en Gegenrezept! Wi bruukt en "Gegenöffentlichkeit" to de
hoochdüütsche Öffentlichkeit. Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattdüütsch
Feernsehsenner geven dee, denn dee de Gröninger ok mal Sleswigsch höörn, de
Vörpommer Westfäälsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De Lüüd deen mehr
plattdüütsche Wöör kennenlehren un uttuuschen. Ganz bilütten dee de Spraak
denn wedder en beten mehr tohoopwassen.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 04:15:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:15:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.201514.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]

Leve Marcus,


 Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen
> durch irgendwelche äußeren Merkmale aus?
>
> Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "äußere Merkmale"?
>

Ik meen, wat dat landschapliche Grenzen sünd. Op de Koort süht dat teemlich
liekföörmig ut, mit en grotes Wooldrebett dormang. Orr dör wat is de Wessel
in de Spraakfoorms süss tostannkamen? Politische Grenzen? Riekwiet vun de
groten kulturellen Zentren?


 Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattdüütsch Feernsehsenner geven
> dee, denn dee de Gröninger ok mal Sleswigsch höörn, de
> Vörpommer Westfäälsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De Lüüd
> deen mehr plattdüütsche Wöör kennenlehren un uttuuschen.
> Ganz bilütten dee de Spraak denn wedder en beten mehr
> tohoopwassen.
>

Bi den plattdüütschen Kiekschappkanaal bün ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi us
nich to fröh: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un Wedderhalen vun
uurole Ohnsorg-Stücken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr hest Du al
wat nauere Plaans daför in'n Achterkopp...?

Hartlich!

Marlou

----------

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (01) [NDS]

Gouen dag, siidlänners,

Am 22.12.2009, 20:09 Uhr, scraif Marcus Buck:

Bi de Nedderlannen hebbt wi twee Saken: Wenn wi na'n Stamboom gaht, denn
sitt Plattdüütsch in Düütschland un Nedersaksisch in de Nedderlannen op'n
sülven Telgen. Nedersaksisch is na'n Stammboom veel dichter mit Plattdüütsch
verwandt as mit Hollandsch. Dat lett sik licht wiesen bi en poor Saken, de
temlich oold sünd: To'n Bispeel de Ümluud bi de Wöör Höövd/Haupt/hoovd

Biifal! Marcus,

Dat un wat dårnau folgede, lücht mi heylemaul in, un is miinsachtens en
goude tohaupefating van de taalverwantskup sassesk - nidrsaskisk-nidrlandsk.
Un dat is gout, dat dat hiir mål sau klår segt wert.

Ik kün no wiidergaun un seggen: dat Standard-Nederlands is mer Nidrdüüdsk
(tominnest Nidrfrankisk) dan dat, wat hüdigendags no van prauteden
Platdüüdsk hiir un dår üewrig bliiwen is. Doch de verkweyre nederlandse
scriifwiis makt dat baule unkentlik… ;-). Me kan't naudriägelig nig ännern,
ål doch stünne et bieter üm de platdüüdske taal, wan Standard-Nederlands
uuse daksprauke wiän wœre un nig dat Standard('haug')düüdsk!

Blaut an eyn/twey pünten, achtede Marcus, kan ik di går nig folgen:

En anner Ding is denn noch de Klangfarv. Plattdüütsch hett faken den Klang
von dat Hoochdüütsche övernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'schwart' för öller 'swart'
oder 'boben' för öller 'boven'.

Ik haule 'r tiigen: dår, wår hüde in plat 'schwart' IPA [ʃva:rt] stats
'swart' un 'boben' stats 'boven/buawen' segt wert, is dat nig mer
plat(=sassesk), man half haugdüüdsk. (Ås du scrifst…, dat is van't
Haugdüüdske üöwernuomen.)

Nedersaksisch hett fakener den Klang von dat Hollandsch övernahmen, to'n
Bispeel 'omtrent' för öller 'umtrent' oder de besünnere hollandsche Utspraak
von dat 'g' oder dat 'sch'.

'omtrent' vs. 'umtrent' (wör wual korrekter 'ümmetrent'?) - jau. Mer de
»besünnere hollandsche Utspraak van dat 'g' oder dat 'sch' - meynt is je
wual dat spirantiske/riewene 'g' IPA [ɣ/χ/x] und dat s-ch [sx] - is nig
besünners hollantsk, man de ursprünklike uutsprauke in plat (hente't 15./16.
jhdt. tominnest) un jümmers no de uutsprauke in'm westfœlsken twig van
hüdigem plat=sassisk.

Am 24.12.2009, scraif Marcus:

De Lüüd hoolt sik an dat, wat se kennt. Nüms, ok nich de modersprakigste
Moderspraken-Plattdüütsche von'n olen un öllsten Slag, kann vondaag noch
sien Alldag "bewältigen", ahn dat he sik mit Hoochdüütsch utenannersetten
mutt. Un wenn Minschen jümmer mit twee Spraken to doon hebbt, denn rüddelt
sik de Woordbiller so lang torech, bet dat se op Pass liggen doot.

Sau is dat wual. Un dat heyt to enne dacht, dat Plat baule daude is,
tominnest blaut no en klankfarwe van Standartdüüdsk in en pår regiounen im
noorden. Anners kün dat blaut kuomen, wan dat hüüdige Plat wier to de eygen
wuordeln fiinen wœrde: de nidrdüüdske traditsjoun vam middelöller (mnd.).
Man dårtou bruukede et noug (bellede) lüüe, dey sik dårmet befaten däen, un
voruutsettingen im scoulwiäsen (plichtfak Sassisk in Norddüüdsklant),
föddernge etc., ümme dat sik sau wat ås 'ne "hauge" sprauklike subkultur för
Sassisk belden küöne.

Sau lank ås et dat lesdere nich gift, küent wi taalverbeseylde/waansinnige
intellektuelle "grålshöider" van't Sassisk lickers wat doun, dat de
taalweytenskuplike un didaktisken voruutsettingen dårför plegt un entwickelt
werden.

 Mein Punkt ist, dass viele Hochdeutsche, die mit Englisch zu tun haben, gar
nicht mehr realisieren, dass manche Wortbilder gar keinen Sinn machen, … Dat
gifft aver en Gegenrezept! Wi bruukt en "Gegenöffentlichkeit" to de
hoochdüütsche Öffentlichkeit. Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattdüütsch
Feernsehsenner geven dee, denn dee de Gröninger ok mal Sleswigsch höörn, de
Vörpommer Westfäälsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De Lüüd deen mehr
plattdüütsche Wöör kennenlehren un uttuuschen. Ganz bilütten dee de Spraak
denn wedder en beten mehr tohoopwassen.

Ålsau wœr dat dan wual. Dat geyt in de liike richting ås wat ik met "hauge"
platkultur meyne.
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

Leve Lüüd',


Klaar hebbt de Dialekten in de Oostnedderlannen hollandsch Inwarken un de
Dialekten in Noorddüütschland hebbt düütsch Inwarken. Liekers höört se
altohoop na de sülvige neddersassische Spraak to, liek as kurdsche Dialekten
in de Törkee, Iraak, Syrien un’n Iraan törksch, araabsch un peerssch
Inwarken hebbt, de dat Verstahn œver Grenzen ’n bäten swarer maakt, un de
Schrievwies’ ook mengeleert latiensch un araabsch is.


Man na mien Verschääl is dat keen Grund, dat de Spraak un dat Spräkervolk in
Stücken hackt wardt. Nich vergäten: “Divide and conquer” is wunnen Spääl.
Mit Fründschupp, Bröderschupp un *exposure* œver Grenzen lehrt de Minschen
de Dialekten mit frömdlandsch Inwarken und Schrievwies’ kennen. So swaar is
dat nich, wenn Will un Mœg’ mitspäält, un so dummerhaftig sünd de Minschen
nich, dat se dat mit de Tied nich berieten kœnt. Dat Tohoopkamen starkt de
Spraak; dat Tweihacken maakt ähr week un dood.


Us Jochen (Joachim) sien Westfœlsch is för Noordneddersassen ook nicht vääl
lichtfardiger to verstahn as de (westfœlschen) Dialekten vun Süüddrenthe un
Twente güntsieds de Grenz, or de Dialekten vun Oostfreesland un ’t Emsland
(Düütschland) mit jüm ähr freessch un nedderlandsch Inwarken, or de
Oostdialekten mit jüm ähr slaawsch un baltsch Inwarken. Wenn de Will daar
is, denn kœnt wi amenn sogaar vun wägen 'n internatschonale Schrievwies' up
een Stück kamen. Man dat geiht nich, so lang de Minschen "Platt" nich as 'n
egenstännige Spraak ankieken doot, wenn se wieder meent, dat is man bloots
'n düütsche Dialektgrupp.


Mien besten Wünschen to’t Wiehnachtsfest!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:35:37 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:35:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063537.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.11.22 (06) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I am often asked to explain how to reach and use our archives. So here
> goes, to all of you to preempt individual responses.
>       * Go to
>         http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html .
>       * Click on "Search the archives".
>       * Click on the box next to "Substring search" to make a check
>         mark appear. (This will cause the search engine to search
>         texts of messages rather than only subject lines.)
>       * Enter your search terms. (If you are looking for a phrase,
>         write it in quotation marks to keep the string of words
>         together.)
>       * Click on the button entitled "Start the search".
> Please keep these instructions for later reference.

Ron,

I keep meaning to bring up: surely as Lowlands-L is a discussion group,
the archives should be the first thing you find to click on on the site?

When I visit the site, I find that link buried rather deep, considering
its importance. I used to have trouble finding the archives, though I've
got used to the idea that they're not as easy to find as you'd expect.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Resources

Thanks, Sandy. Point well taken.

I'll try and see if I can make the link more prominent on our main page,
possibly this weekend.

Happy holidays!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:38:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:38:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.24 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063806.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 02
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Karstfeest

Moi lèeglaanders

Vanuut ’t Ogeveine een gezegend karstfeest.

Hieronder een karstverhaal uut vrogger tieden

Arend Victorie

’t Ogeveine

Drenthe

Nederlaand.

De vèurspelling in de karstnacht.

Op midder-karstnacht wörde der verteld dat de dieren kunt praoten.

Juust as de klokke twaalf ure zal slaon verteld zij menaar vrumde dinger.

Mienigiene, wel neisgierig was, perbèerde in die nacht te vernèmen wat ’t
vee onder menaar te vertellen had. En mienigien hèurde dan dinger die hij ’t
liefste nooit ehèur hadde.

Zo was der ok ies een boer die in de karstnacht naor zien stal gung umme
zien vee an te hèuren. Hij gung hiel veurzichtig de stal in, verschuulde
zich in een nis en wachte töt de klokke middernacht anwèes. Zien jaank umme
te weten war der komend jaor gebeuren zal, was zo groot, dat hij de
verzuuking niet had kunnen weerstaon en een plekkie  vlakbij koe en peerd
zöcht, umme ’t gesprek of te luustern. Stief van de zenings wachte hij of.
En töt zien verbaozing klunk daor iniens de stemme van zien peerd in de
stille en bedomte stal. “Der is sinds veurig karstmis alweer een jaor
veubij”. Heurde hij zien peerd zeggen. “Ja”, zee de koe, “t Was een good
jaor, ’t komend jaor liekt niet zo best.” “Nee,’t benauwt mij arg” en ’t
peerd zuchte, “t benauwt mij arg”. “Mij ok”, was ’t weerwoord van de koe,
“mar veur oe is ’t veul arger”.  “Och”, zee ’t peerd, “de boer was altied zo
goed veur mij en dan te bedeinken, dat ik hum zölf mut wegbrengen”. “Dat is
ok arg en ie ontkoomt der niet an”, zee de koe. “Nee”, zuchte ’t peerd,
“daor ontkoom ik niet an. Mar ’t is nog gien mei”. De karkklokke had zien
twaalf slagen edaone en koe en peerd stunden weer net zo onneuzel te kieken
as toen de boer stiekem de stal was binnen-ekomen…’t Ende van zien leven…..
Lag dat niet verbörgen in de weinige woorden deur de beide dieren ewisseld?
Hij gung langzem deur de schuure en zöcht zien beddestèe weer op umme te
gaon slaopen. Mar hoe hij ok keerde en wende, hij kun de slaop niet te
pakken kriegen. Zien vrouwe begreep der niks van en vreug hum naor de reden
van zien onröst. Nörs gaf hij te kennen dat zij stille mus weden. De dagen
gungen traog veurbij en de boer zun op een meniere umme an ‘t noodlot dat
hij veur zuch zag, te ontkomen. Hij besleut ten ende raod zien peerd, wel
hum altied goed ediend had, te verkopen, umme teminste een diel van zien
onröst kwiet te raken. ’t Peerd verkocht hij an een boer, die een hiel ende
varder weg woonde, zodat der gien kaans zul weden, dat ’t hum naor zien
groeve kun brengen. Hij kochte een aander peerd weer, mar hij miste zien
olde peerd bij al ‘t wark. Zien naober wörde ziek en kwam te verstarven en
zien boerderije wörde an een aander verhuurd. Die aander was de boer an wie
hij zien peerd har verkocht!... Toen mei in ’t laand kwam, trök de neie
huurder in de naoburige woning. Daordeur aovervöl de boer een grote aangst
en hij duurde zien huus niet uut, umdat hij bange was een ongelok te kriegen
en te starven. Waor hij buutenshuus bange veur was dat aoverkwaamp hum in
zien eigen huus. Hij vol deur ‘t  balkenslob, toen hij heui naor beneden
gooide en brak zien nekke. En zien eigen peerd, now van zien  naober, trök
de wagen, waormit hij naor zien groeve ebracht wörde…

Bron Dreinse Volksoaverleverings J. H. Bermans-Beins 1933

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:39:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:39:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063956.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (04) [DE-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]
>
> Leve Marcus,
>
>
>    Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen
>    durch irgendwelche äußeren Merkmale aus?
>
>    Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "äußere Merkmale"?
>
>
> Ik meen, wat dat landschapliche Grenzen sünd. Op de Koort süht dat teemlich
> liekföörmig ut, mit en grotes Wooldrebett dormang. Orr dör wat is de Wessel
> in de Spraakfoorms süss tostannkamen? Politische Grenzen? Riekwiet vun de
> groten kulturellen Zentren?
>
>  De Isogloss löppt groff de Iessel (IJssel) lang, denn dör de Veluwe (dat
Wooldrebeed) un denn an de Eem bet an dat Iesselmeer. Bi Eem un Iessel weet
ik dat nich, aver de Veluwe as Haidrebeed hett op jeden Fall den Verkehr
behinnert. De Veluwe trennt aver West-Veluws un Oost-Veluws un West-Veluws
is liekers Nedersaksisch (ok wenn dat al en düüdlich weniger Nedersaksischen
Charakter as de Oost-Veluwe hett). Dor alleen kann dat also nich an liggen.
Von politische Grenzen weet ik ok nix. Ik glööv dat nich. Ik heff mi mit
disse Fraag na de Westgrenz al veel beschäftigt un mi persönlich dücht, dat
de wichtigste Grund worraftig de Stammgrenz Sassen/Franken is. De Franken
hebbt sik den Rhien dal utbreedt un de Sassen hebbt sik von Oosten her
utbreedt. So üm un bi 800 mutt dat wesen hebben, dat se sik in de Veluwe
drapen hebbt. De Spraak weer temlich verscheden, beid Spraken harrn sik ja
utbreedt un harrn sik in Rebeden billt, de wied vonenanner af weren. Un ok
wenn veel von disse Ünnerscheden sik nu utgleken hebbt, is dat doch liekers
noch to marken.


>    Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattdüütsch Feernsehsenner geven
>    dee, denn dee de Gröninger ok mal Sleswigsch höörn, de
>    Vörpommer Westfäälsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De Lüüd
>    deen mehr plattdüütsche Wöör kennenlehren un uttuuschen.
>    Ganz bilütten dee de Spraak denn wedder en beten mehr
>    tohoopwassen.
>
>
> Bi den plattdüütschen Kiekschappkanaal bün ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi us
> nich to fröh: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un Wedderhalen vun
> uurole Ohnsorg-Stücken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr hest Du al
> wat nauere Plaans daför in'n Achterkopp...?
>
>  Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen vörantobringen.
Wenn di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr över schrieven, aver vondaag
heff ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en längern Text, wenn ik eerst
anfang.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 18:54:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:54:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.105446.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]

Och doch, schreib doch mal, wenn Du wieder Zeit hast! Vielleicht fällt uns
allen gemeinsam was ein, was man bewegen könnte. Ich sag jetzt auch tschüß,
muss Strohsterne in Seidenkiefer stecken... :-)

Frohe und gesegnete Weihnachten!

Marlou
From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

>

Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen vörantobringen. Wenn
di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr över schrieven, aver vondaag heff
ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en längern Text, wenn ik eerst anfang.

----------

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.24 (04) [NDS]

An'n 24.12.2009, 15:38 Uhr, scraif Arend Victorie:

Hij vol deur ‘t balkenslob, toen hij heui naor beneden gooide en brak zien
nekke. En zien eigen peerd, now van zien naober, trök de wagen, waormit hij
naor zien groeve ebracht wörde…

Jau, sau mosse dat kuomen. Süs wœr't nine voorspelling (voruutsegge) wiän…

Dank sii Ju, leewe Arend, för de goue karstverhaal (kerstfestvertelsel) uut
de Dreentske Volksüewerleverings!

Dat vertelsel was vergnöiglik. Un auk spannend ås en krimi, [h]wou de
'vorspelling' dan wual intriä[d]en däe. Blaut de nederlandse 'spelling'
maakt mi verdreet, ås ik auk jüst in "Language varieties" scriewen [sxriəvn]
hadde…
Auk hew'ik nig ruutfuunen, wat dat 'lob' of 'slob' van den balken(s) nowwe
is (een gat, lek?), dår de Buur dürfol un nå unnen gooide (stödde?, is
'gooien' = werpen auk passiv of reflexiv?), küent Ji dår wiiderhelpen?

Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigjår (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[γ])
for Ji un ålle LL-kornuten!
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 01:56:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:56:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.175601.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [NDS]

Feggelkorrektur:
-----------------
[x] stats [γ] in düssen fal:

Am 24.12.2009, 19:54 Uhr, hew'ik scriewen:

Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigjår (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[γ])

Dårbii is mi en tipfeggel ünnerloupen, richtig mot dat siin:
»Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigjår (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[x])«   <==

Uutlutende lut de boukstawe ”g” => IPA [x] = stimlaus riewen, un achtern "i"
an'n vorderguumen beldet (voiceless _velar_ fricative). In Westfœlsk  ås
tomeyst in Plat un norddüüdske sprekwiis.

De annere g-riifluut => IPA [γ] = stimhaftig riewen (voiced velar
fricative), is for dat "g" in'n anluut un tüsken annere klingers (vokale),
t. b. 'gaun' ndl. 'gaan', 'seggen'.

Sau is dat wual auk in Nederlands.

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]

Leve Marlou, leve Marcus,

>> Bi den plattdüütschen Kiekschappkanaal bün ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi
>> us nich to fröh: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un
Wedderhalen
>> vun uurole Ohnsorg-Stücken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr
hest
>> Du al wat nauere Plaans daför in'n Achterkopp...?
>>
> Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen vörantobringen.
Wenn
> di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr över schrieven, aver vondaag
heff
> ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en längern Text, wenn ik eerst
anfang.
Also in de Tiet vun youtube bruukt een ja blots noch en beten Tiet un
en Camcorder. Un dat is ja noog, wenn dat jümmers blots en halvig
Stunn in en Maand is. Denn nöömt wi dat "de Kiekschappkanaal" un maakt
eenfach mal wat.

Heiko

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 19:45:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:45:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.12.25 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.114511.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (04) [DE-NDS]

Moi Joachim,



Ik zal perbeern umme ’t uut te leggen:



De“Balkenslob” waor de buur dürful is: Der bodenluke im heustock. Im
heustock lag das heu auf einem meist hölzernen Rost etwa 40 cm über dem
Boden.



Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 19:47:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:47:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.114702.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de <mailto:heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]
>
> Leve Marlou, leve Marcus,
>
> >> Bi den plattdüütschen Kiekschappkanaal bün ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi
> >> us nich to fröh: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un
> Wedderhalen
> >> vun uurole Ohnsorg-Stücken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr
> hest
> >> Du al wat nauere Plaans daför in'n Achterkopp...?
> >>
> > Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen vörantobringen.
> Wenn
> > di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr över schrieven, aver vondaag
> heff
> > ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en längern Text, wenn ik eerst
> anfang.
> Also in de Tiet vun youtube bruukt een ja blots noch en beten Tiet un
> en Camcorder. Un dat is ja noog, wenn dat jümmers blots en halvig
> Stunn in en Maand is. Denn nöömt wi dat "de Kiekschappkanaal" un maakt
> eenfach mal wat.
>
> Heiko
>

Dat is op jeden Fall eerstmal en gode Idee üm to wiesen, dat een överhoop in
de Laag is en intressant Programm to maken!

Aver de Grundidee von mien "plattdüütsch Feernsehn" is, dat wi de
Konsum-Logistik ännert. Opstunns is dat so, dat elkeen, de Plattdüütsch
hebben will, sik dat _halen_ mutt. He mutt aktiv söken. Un aktiv söken doot
man de Lüüd, de sik "bewusst" mit de Spraak befaten doot. Un dat is man en
temlich lütte Tall Lüüd. Mit en egen Senner warrt dat ännert. De Lüüd mööt
sik nix mehr _halen_, dat warrt _bröcht_. Elkeen kriggt Plattdüütsch in sien
egen Huus levert. Nüms mutt dor wat besünners för doon. So kriggst du ok de
Lüüd, de sik nich bewusst mit de Spraak befaten doot.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 21:11:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:11:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.131130.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (02) [DE-NDS]

Hm, hmmm, leve Markus, also bi de Utwahl vun TV-Senners vundaag is dat gor
nich wiss, dat mennig Lü dat unwillkürlich wohrnehmt, wenn een niege Sender
tokümmt! Dat gifft ja al Nischen-Kanaals, un de wüllt söcht ween. Un mehr as
en Nischenkanaal wöör so'n pd. Senner toeerst ok nich ween. Un so good dat
weer, so'n Kanaal to hebben -- da kann veel scheeplopen, sünnerlich mit de
Lü, de dat maakt. Un dat kost Geld. Un so'n Medium as TV hett nich mehr
allto veel Tokumst. Din Grundgedank, Marcus, de "Konsum-Logistik to ännern",
de stimmt 100%. Mal sehn: Wat warrt de Lü opdrängt, wat kennt jedereen, wat
is in all Medien togliek präsent? Reklaam. De würklich coolen Reklaam-Spots
maakt in Nullkommanix de Runn dör alle Medien, mit Glück sogor weltwied.
Natüürlich kannst dat nich betahlen. Dat Allerbest weer, wenn jichenseen
Produkt en 1 A Reklaamspot *op Platt *dreihn wöör, t.B. wieldat Platt en
godes Image hett (jung!!!!) orr witzig is. Dat mutt toeerst gor nüms
verstahn, dat langt, dat Platt de Präsenz un -- villicht -- Kultstatus
winnt. De wenigsten Lü bi us verstaht ja ingelsche Reklaam, liekers wirkt se
-- villicht jüst dorwegen ;-) Sowat kunn en Dörenapener för Platt ween. Da
kümmt veel op Personen an, dücht mi. Lü, de an de richtigen Steden sitt.
Köönt wi da wat bi doon?

Hartlich!

Marlou

  From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]

 Aver de Grundidee von mien "plattdüütsch Feernsehn" is, dat wi de
Konsum-Logistik ännert. Opstunns is dat so, dat elkeen, de Plattdüütsch
hebben will, sik dat _halen_ mutt. He mutt aktiv söken. Un aktiv söken doot
man de Lüüd, de sik "bewusst" mit de Spraak befaten doot. Un dat is man en
temlich lütte Tall Lüüd. Mit en egen Senner warrt dat ännert. De Lüüd mööt
sik nix mehr _halen_, dat warrt _bröcht_. Elkeen kriggt Plattdüütsch in sien
egen Huus levert. Nüms mutt dor wat besünners för doon. So kriggst du ok de
Lüüd, de sik nich bewusst mit de Spraak befaten doot.

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 00:08:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:08:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.160814.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (03) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Lowlanders,

ausgehend von meinen Erfahrungen, die ich als freie Mitarbeiterin vor der
Wende
beim Landessender Schwerin und nach der Wende beim NDR1 Radio MV gemacht
habe, muß ich allerdings bedenken wie "blauäugig" ihr die hochgespielte
Sache angeht Die Praxis ist nicht leicht.
Alles muß gründlich von A-Z durchdacht sein. Welche Themen, keinen Abklatsch
von anderen Sendungen, Niveau, Sendequalität, Bild- und Tonqualität, wie
sind die Sprecher, Sprecher mal austauschen, wie sprechen sie, also
Aussprache, Nuscheln, kann man noch besser sein als die Profis,
Programmgestaltung, Dramaturgie, Kosten, Arbeitsaufwand, GEMA nicht zu
vergessen.
Wie kann man Hörer begeistern und gewinnen, bestehende Medien werden mit
euch wetteifern, treue Hörer bisheriger Medien werden vielleicht mal
Stipp-Visite machen, aber wie lange...
Könnt ihr diese zusätzliche Arbeit neben Hauptberuf auf die Dauer
durchstehen.
Marlou du hest doch nu all soväl üm de Uhrn.
Starten ist gut, aber *Durchhalten.*
M.E. ist es viel wichtiger unmittelbar mehr für die Erhaltung/Belebung
unserer
Sprache zu tun, Umwege helfen auch nicht weiter. Und es tut sich ja schon
soviel. Vorhandenes besser nutzen.

Haben wir schon die Festlegungen vergessen: *10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in
Deutschland: Praxis und Perspektiven Schwerin 14. und 15. Mai 2009.*
Hier begegneten sich Pommeraner und Westfalen,  Mecklenburger und
Niedersachsen. Niederländer und Dänen, auch Sorben u.v.a..

Wir müssen uns mehr auf das globale Denken besinnen und statt sich auf
Grenzen innerhalb einer großen Sprachgruppe sollten wir
Grenzen/Abgrenzen/Mauer nicht vertiefen. Eigentlich verschmelzen an
regionalen Grenzen die Sprachen wie z.B. Vorpommern/Mecklenburg, und viele
hiesige Plattdeutsche kennen nicht mal die Grenze (Recknitz).
Ich habe seit 1978 als Entertainer (Niederdeutsch mit Berufsausweis, auch
VHS) viele  Städte, Dörfer, Nester bespielt. Wir waren ein Ensemble
mit professioneller
Besetzung wie Sängerin, Gitarrist, Treckfiedel und Sprecher. Wir haben
Erfahrungen gesammelt und wissen hier bestens Bescheid.
Ich bin weiterhin für unser Niederdeutsch (ehrenamtlich) unterwegs.

Das heutige vielseitige Kulturangebot verdrängt  leider auch teilweise das
Niederdeutsche.

Grüße.
Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 05:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:51:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.215144.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at t-online.de>

 Liebe Lowlanders,
>  ausgehend von meinen Erfahrungen, die ich als freie Mitarbeiterin vor der
> Wende
> beim Landessender Schwerin und nach der Wende beim NDR1 Radio MV gemacht
> habe, muß ich allerdings bedenken wie "blauäugig" ihr die hochgespielte
> Sache angeht Die Praxis ist nicht leicht.
> Alles muß gründlich von A-Z durchdacht sein. Welche Themen, keinen
> Abklatsch von anderen Sendungen, Niveau, Sendequalität, Bild- und
> Tonqualität, wie sind die Sprecher, Sprecher mal austauschen, wie sprechen
> sie, also Aussprache, Nuscheln, kann man noch besser sein als die Profis,
> Programmgestaltung, Dramaturgie, Kosten, Arbeitsaufwand, GEMA nicht zu
> vergessen.
> Wie kann man Hörer begeistern und gewinnen, bestehende Medien werden mit
> euch wetteifern, treue Hörer bisheriger Medien werden vielleicht mal
> Stipp-Visite machen, aber wie lange...
> Könnt ihr diese zusätzliche Arbeit neben Hauptberuf auf die Dauer
> durchstehen.
>
Wat heet denn "blauäugig"? Betnuto maakt wi uns ja blot en poor Gedanken.
Wenn wi uns en Senneplatz op en Satelliten köpen deen (köst so bi 700.000
Euro, wenn ik dat richtig weet) un uns denn överleggen deen, wat wi dor
sennen wüllt, dor kannst du denn seggen, dat is blauäugig. Aver en poor op
en Mailing-List uttuuscht Gedanken sünd nich mehr as dat: Gedanken. Ik glööv
dor sülvst nich an, dat dor wat von warrt. En Senner, de ok wat döggt,
bruukt en Budget in de Gröttenordnung von 100 Millionen Euro. Dor warrt nix
von. Liekers is dat _nödig_, wenn wi Plattdüütsch bewohren wüllt!

Ik glööv, dat is wiss, dat "die bisherigen Bemühungen intensivieren" nich
utreckt. De bisherigen Bemühungen sünd eenfach blot "Doodplegen". So as en
olen Minschen, de in't Heim kummt. De kriggt noch Eten, warrt wuschen, all
dree Weken kaamt de Kinner di besöken. Dat reckt üm de Person an't Leven to
hollen un tominnst en lütt beten Würde to wohren. Aver dat büddt keen
Perspektive mehr. Keen Tokumst, op de een sik freien kann, op de een sien
Höpen setten kann.

Wenn Plattdüütsch wedder leven schall un opblöhn, denn mööt wi blauäugig
wesen, driest wesen, denn mööt wi grote Saken angahn un nich bang wesen, dat
wi dor bi op de Nees fallt. Wi mööt in Rebeden gahn, in de Plattdüütsch
vördem noch nich tohuus weer. Wi mööt Saken utproberen. Welk Saken warrt
denn jämmerlich kreperen un welk annere Saken warrt Spood hebben.

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

> Hm, hmmm, leve Markus, also bi de Utwahl vun TV-Senners vundaag is dat gor
> nich wiss, dat mennig Lü dat unwillkürlich wohrnehmt, wenn een niege Sender
> tokümmt! Dat gifft ja al Nischen-Kanaals, un de wüllt söcht ween. Un mehr as
> en Nischenkanaal wöör so'n pd. Senner toeerst ok nich ween.
>
Dat grote Problem för de Nischensenners is, dat de nüms kennt. Un wat nüms
kennt, dat warrt ok nich söcht un nich funnen. Ik nehm an, wenn dat eerstmal
en plattdüütschen Senner gifft, denn kummt dat in Noorddüütschland ok
temlich groot in de Press. Un wenn de Lüüd eerst weet, dat de Senner dor is,
denn köönt se em ok finnen. As 1999 op mal de Champions League op tm3 lopen
is, hett dat ok nich lang duurt un de Lüüd wüssen, wo se tm3 finnen kunnen.

Dat geiht vör allen üm den Opwand, de to drieven is, dat een Plattdüütsch
op'n Bildschirm kriggt.  Wenn wi dorvon utgaht, dat de Senner al
inprogrammeert is, denn is de Opwand: Sik op't Sofa setten. Feernseher
inschalten. Op dat richtige Programm schalten. Geneten.

Bi en YouTube-Kanal: In't Internett gahn. Dor hest du al 30% von de Lüüd
verloren, all de keen Internett hebbt. De Reekner steiht meistens nich in'e
Stuuv. De steiht faken in't Büro oder annerwegens. Gemütlichen Avend kannst
so nich hebben. Hest al wedder Hümpel Minschen verloren.  Dat
Internett-Konsumverhollen is sounso ganz anners as dat TV-Konsumverhollen.
In't Feernsehn hett de Tagesschau Spood. Wenn dat Internett al vör dat
Feernsehn dor wesen weer, denn harr dat in't Internett en Format so as de
Tagesschau nienich geven. 15 Minuten lang kriggst du seriell Kraam to hören,
de di faken gornich intresseert. Ut Internett-Sicht en Witz.

> Un so good dat weer, so'n Kanaal to hebben -- da kann veel scheeplopen,
> sünnerlich mit de Lü, de dat maakt.
>
Du hest recht, dor kann veel scheeflopen.  Aver de richtigen Lüüd to finnen,
dat Problem lett sik in't Vörut nich lösen. Dat lett sik eerst lösen, wenn
de Senner al beslaten Saak is.

> Un dat kost Geld.
>
Dor hest du recht. Un dat is ok dat grote Problem bi de Saak. En Problem,
dat wi temlich wohrschienlich nich lösen köönt. Ik glööv nich, dat wi noch
en plattdüütschen Feernsehsenner beleven warrt. Dor bün ik pessimistisch.
Aver wi köönt uns ja liekers dor över Gedanken maken! Eerstmal de Fraag:
Woveel köst en Feernsehsenner? To'n Vergliek: Phoenix hett en Etat von 35
Millionen Euro. De Ki.Ka von 60 Millionen. Televisió de Catalunya hett 1999
158 Millionen kregen (aktuelle Tallen weet ik nich).  De walisisch Senner
Sianel Pedwar Cymru hett en Etat von 143 Millionen. För en Vullprogramm mit
enigermaten Qualität sünd also so bi 100 Millionen nödig. Du kannst ok en
Vullprogramm mit 10 Millionen bedrieven, aver veel Qualität kannst denn nich
verwachten.

> Un so'n Medium as TV hett nich mehr allto veel Tokumst.
>
Jojo, ik kenn de Ideen von de Trendforschers, de seggt, dat de Tokumst von
all Content in "on demand" liggt, in individualisierten Medienangeboten etc.
pp. In Tokumst löppt allens över't Internett. Un recht hebbt se
wohrschienlich. Aver de Weg is noch lang. De TV-Branche markt dor noch nix
von, dat de Users in't Internett afwannert. Ok in 10 Johr warrt dat noch
Feernsehn geven. Un wohrschienlich ok noch in 50 un in 100 Johr. Dat
Kabelnett gifft dat denn al lang nich mehr. Feernsehn löppt denn
wohrschienlich all över't Internett. Aver TV is dat liekers noch. En Format
so as DSDS löppt blot, wenn Millionen Minschen to de sülve Tied dat sülve to
sehn kriegt. DSDS gifft dat in 100 Johr gewiss nich mehr, aver liekers gifft
dat Formate, de blot live Sinn maakt (Football!). Op wat för'n Plattform dat
denn löppt, dat is blot en technische Fraag.

Will ik also man anfangen to vertellen, wat ik mi so vörstell bi en
plattdüütschen Feernsehsenner. Toeerst mal: keen "Eenheitsplatt". Elkeen
schull sien egen Platt snacken dröffen. De dullsten Regionalismen fallt
natürlich automaatsch weg, denn elkeen süht ja to, dat he ok verstahn warrt.
Aver dat schull tominnst keen Regeln geven, de de Lüüd vörschrieven doot,
woans se snacken mööt oder dröfft. Un miene Vision von so'n Senner is en
inklusive, bi de ok dat Nedersaksisch von de Nedderlannen un dat
Plautdietsche in alle Welt mit von de Partie is. Dat dee ik good finnen,
wenn so'n Senner ok in Pomerode in Brasilien oder bi de Plautdietschen von
Sibirien rintokriegen weer.

Dat Problem mit de Dialektveelfalt lett sik minnern, wenn dat
Videotext-Ünnertitels in de wichtigsten Dialekten un villicht ok op
Hoochdüütsch un Nedderlandsch geven dee.

Denn dat Programm. Du schriffst "Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt
un Wedderhalen vun uurole Ohnsorg-Stücken."

Ohnsorg höört dor op jeden Fall to! Dat geiht gornich anners. Aver natürlich
schull dat nich 50% von de Tied lopen ;-) Dat gifft aver ja ok noog annere
professionelle plattdüütsche Theaters, de veel to wenig kennt warrt. So'n
Stücken opnehmen, dat köst nich veel, de Theaters hebbt dor wat von, wenn
jemehr Arbeit beter kennt warrt, un dat bringt düchtig Kultur in't Programm.
Ik kunn mi ok vörstellen, dat de Senner fakener mal Laientheater wiest. Is
denn keen hoge Kultur, aver dat mutt ja ok nich wesen. Mutt en goden Mix
wesen. Wat mi ok gefallen dee, is en plattdüütschen Vörutscheed för Liet
International. Dit Johr hebbt ja dat eerste Maal ok Plattdüütsche mitmaakt.
Mit en egen Vörutscheed weer dat gewiss mööglich, dor elk Johr mit bi to
wesen. Un dat Finaal von Liet warrt denn natürlich ok wiest.

Denn natürlich plattdüütsche Narichten.

En Sportsendung, de blangen Bundesliga etc. ok Regionalsport bringt.
Villicht ok Berichten ut en poor Sportoorden, de typisch för
Plattdüütschland sünd, oder tominnst binnen Plattdüütschland fakener speelt
warrt. Klootscheten to'n Bispeel. Bi uns in de Region gifft dat veel
Fuustball. In Ollnborg un Oostfreesland warrt Sleuderball veel speelt. etc.

Denn en Magazin, in dat nee rutkamen plattdüütsche Böker bespraken warrt.

Talkrunnen op Platt.

Denn en Reeg, in de de Spraak en beten vörstellt warrt (Kennt ji "Mit
offenen Karten" op Arte? Dat is en Sendung in de elk Week en Land oder
geopolitisch Thema vörstellt warrt, indem dor Koorten to wiest warrt. Heel
intressant! Sowat in de Oord, aver eben över Spraak un nich över Geopolitik)
.

Denn, ganz wichtig, en Sendung, in de Musik speelt warrt. Villicht eenfach
in de Form so as op MTV oder VIVA. Eenfach blot Clips  naenanner afspeelt.
Köst meist nix un helpt de plattdüütschen Musikers bekannter to warrn. Denn
as Extra-Format Volksmusik. De Volksmusik in de hoochdüütschen Medien is ja
temlich Alpen-lastig. Also noorddüütsche Volksmusik. Un vör allen keen
"volkstümlicher Schlager"-Gedudel! Richtige Volksmusik, Ledermaker-Musik
etc.

Natürlich ok Filme un Serien op Platt synchroniseert. Ik will mal en poor
Naams ut de Kino-Saison 2009 seggen: Saw 5, Avatar, Twilight, Ice Age 3,
Wickie und die starken Männer, Lauras Stern und der geheimnisvolle Drache
Nian.  Disse Soort Filme. Serien so as South Park, The Simpsons, Grey's
Anatomy, How I Met Your Mother. Aver ok Klassikers, villicht Casablanca op
Platt etc.

Villicht en plattdüütsche Late-Night-Show?

En Magazin, dat sik mit de Themen Reekners, Internett etc. utenannersett.

Denn en Magazin, so'n Oord Telekolleg, dat Nedderlandsche oder Hoochdüütsche
Plattdüütsch biböögt.

En Weddstried, bi den Filmstudenten Kortfilme op Platt maakt.

En Magazin för Binnenpolitik, een  för Butenpolitik. Dokus ut uns Heimat
(to'n Bispeel "Mien Dörp vörstellt" oder sowat as'n NDR sien "Landpartie").

En Regio-Soap, so as "Van Jonge Leu en Oale Groond" oder "Boven Wotter".

Ok wichtig: Live-Berichten von de plattdüütschen Schrieverpriesen.
Freudenthal-Pries, Fritz-Reuter-Pries etc. pp.

Villicht as Gegenveranstaltung to'n  rhienschen Karneval en Ümtog to Faslam
överdragen.

Villicht ok mal en egen Film produzeren (aver dat köst denn temlich).

Jeden Sünndag en plattdüütschen Goddsdeenst överdragen.

Un dor mutt för elk Öller wat bi wesen. Lütte Kinner, Kinner in't
Schoolöller, junge Lüüd, dat middlere Öller un ole Lüüd.

Allens blot Ideen. Wenn man blot de Ressourcen dor sünd, denn kann'n dat
allens maken.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 17:55:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:55:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.26 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.095507.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  HanneHinz at t-online.de
Subject: Tradition

Liebe Lowlanders,

auch um die Weihnachtszeit ranken Bräuche.
Steffensdag m. Stephanstag. Ursprünglich Name des heiligen Stephanus (Ap. 6
f. : Die Apostelgeschichte, s. E. Voss 'Dat Ni Testament för plattdütsch
Lüd in ehr Muddersprak oewerdragen von Ernst Voß), dessen Kalendertag der
26. Dezember war und als Beschützer der Pferde galt. Ein Anklang an den
ungarischen König
Stephan könnte vorliegen in dem König Stephanius des Lügenmärchens.
Ich hoffe, alle sind gut durch die Steffensnacht gekommen, die Nacht vor dem
Anbruch des Stephanstages; nach dem Volksglauben erfüllen sich die Träume
der Steffensnacht.
Steffenmorgen m. Der Morgen des Stephanstages; Bräuche, die dem Abwehrzauber
dienten: wenn Steffenmorgen dat Veih börnt  (hier mit 'n' ) ward, möt ierst
'n Hund in 'n Börntrogg smäten warden, dormit dat Veih nich krank ward
(Schönberg/Selmsdorf); man soll erst eine Flinte ins Börmwater abschießen
oder eine glühende Kohle hineinwerfen, dormit de Wod' (vgl. Gaud') sick
verfiert; Kreuzdorn in die Raufe gelegt, schützt die Pferde gegen Krankheit
(Schönberg/Demern).
Da der Namensheilige als Beschützer der Pferde, Pferdearzt galt, ließ man an
diesem Tage alle Pferde zur Ader, also steffen, etwas im Zusammenhang mit
dem Stephanstag tun.
Das 'Stephanen oder Stefnen der Pferde':  unter den Fuhrleuten und andern
die mit Pferden umgehen, hat man die Gewohnheit, an dem zum
Gedächtniß des ersten Märtyrers Stephanus gewidmeten zweeten heil.
Weynachtsfeyertage nicht nur sich selbst, sondern auch vorzüglich den
Pferden die Ader  schlagen zu lassen (Gem. Aufs. 1769).
Das Steffen, ein ursprünglich am Stephanstag stattfindender Umzug von Haus
zu Haus, bei dem Eier, Wurst usw. gesammelt werden; der entsprechende
Heischegang zur Fastnacht (Fastelabend) dann gleichfalls Steffen genannt.
Am 2. Weihnachtstag stefften die Knechte mit einer Kiepe von Haus zu Haus
(Schönberg/(ez) Prieschendorf);
steffen deden de Muskanten ok (Schönberg); bei Zarrentin (Hagenow)
herum hieß das Schlagen mit der Lebensrute steffen, weil es am Stephanstage
. . . vorgenommen wurde'  s. Mecklenburg Heimatbuch. Dieser sonst der
Fastnacht und dem Osterfest zugehörige Brauch heißt allgem. stüpen.

Du olle Steffen (Tunichtgut, Ludwigslust/Ziegendorf).

Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Ich wollte das Beste tun.

Hartlich mien Gräuten, is je noch Wihnachten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 18:04:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:04:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.100416.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================


From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]

Un "Schulfunk" op Platt, Sennen över Bildungs- un Wetenschapsthemen! Un
afsluuts keen Börsenkursen. In'n Plattkanaal keen Börs! Dat warrt en
besünner Utteknen, en "Alleinstellungsmerkmal":-)Avers politisches Kabarett.
Da heff ik al poor Frünnen, mit de tosamen ik dat al lang mal maken wull...
wi hebbt bloots spintiseert...



Hach ja, Hanne hett ja recht. Ik heff al to veel üm de Ohren. Dat is to'n
Hulen. Ik heff noch nich halv de List afarbeidt, de ik mi för de
Wiehnachtsferien vörnahmen harr...



Man dat wi wieder spintiseert: Is dat Internet nich doch villicht de rechte
Plattfoorm, sowat *antofangen*? Kunn een nich mal anfangen, eerste Sendungen
to produzeern, dat een dat lehrt, Künn kriegt un süht, woneem wat fehlt, wat
wa veel Geld, Tied un Ressourcen köst? Wiss kunneen Profis bitrecken, Hanne
t.B., villicht ok anner. Dat Ergeevnis kunn in't Internet publik maakt
warrn. *Dat *tominnst köst denn nix. Naja, nich veel. Dat mehrste is Tied un
Arbeit.



Hartlich!



Marlou



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]

Ohnsorg höört dor op jeden Fall to! Dat geiht gornich anners. Aver natürlich
schull dat nich 50% von de Tied lopen ;-) Dat gifft aver ja ok noog annere
professionelle plattdüütsche Theaters, de veel to wenig kennt warrt. So'n
Stücken opnehmen, dat köst nich veel, de Theaters hebbt dor wat von, wenn
jemehr Arbeit beter kennt warrt, un dat bringt düchtig Kultur in't Programm.
Ik kunn mi ok vörstellen, dat de Senner fakener mal Laientheater wiest. Is
denn keen hoge Kultur, aver dat mutt ja ok nich wesen. Mutt en goden Mix
wesen. Wat mi ok gefallen dee, is en plattdüütschen Vörutscheed för Liet
International. Dit Johr hebbt ja dat eerste Maal ok Plattdüütsche mitmaakt.
Mit en egen Vörutscheed weer dat gewiss mööglich, dor elk Johr mit bi to
wesen. Un dat Finaal von Liet warrt denn natürlich ok wiest.

Denn natürlich plattdüütsche Narichten.

En Sportsendung, de blangen Bundesliga etc. ok Regionalsport bringt.
Villicht ok Berichten ut en poor Sportoorden, de typisch för
Plattdüütschland sünd, oder tominnst binnen Plattdüütschland fakener speelt
warrt. Klootscheten to'n Bispeel. Bi uns in de Region gifft dat veel
Fuustball. In Ollnborg un Oostfreesland warrt Sleuderball veel speelt. etc.

Denn en Magazin, in dat nee rutkamen plattdüütsche Böker bespraken warrt.

Talkrunnen op Platt.

Denn en Reeg, in de de Spraak en beten vörstellt warrt (Kennt ji "Mit
offenen Karten" op Arte? Dat is en Sendung in de elk Week en Land oder
geopolitisch Thema vörstellt warrt, indem dor Koorten to wiest warrt. Heel
intressant! Sowat in de Oord, aver eben över Spraak un nich över Geopolitik)
.

Denn, ganz wichtig, en Sendung, in de Musik speelt warrt. Villicht eenfach
in de Form so as op MTV oder VIVA. Eenfach blot Clips naenanner afspeelt.
Köst meist nix un helpt de plattdüütschen Musikers bekannter to warrn. Denn
as Extra-Format Volksmusik. De Volksmusik in de hoochdüütschen Medien is ja
temlich Alpen-lastig. Also noorddüütsche Volksmusik. Un vör allen keen
"volkstümlicher Schlager"-Gedudel! Richtige Volksmusik, Ledermaker-Musik
etc.

Natürlich ok Filme un Serien op Platt synchroniseert. Ik will mal en poor
Naams ut de Kino-Saison 2009 seggen: Saw 5, Avatar, Twilight, Ice Age 3,
Wickie und die starken Männer, Lauras Stern und der geheimnisvolle Drache
Nian. Disse Soort Filme. Serien so as South Park, The Simpsons, Grey's
Anatomy, How I Met Your Mother. Aver ok Klassikers, villicht Casablanca op
Platt etc.

Villicht en plattdüütsche Late-Night-Show?

En Magazin, dat sik mit de Themen Reekners, Internett etc. utenannersett.

Denn en Magazin, so'n Oord Telekolleg, dat Nedderlandsche oder Hoochdüütsche
Plattdüütsch biböögt.

En Weddstried, bi den Filmstudenten Kortfilme op Platt maakt.

En Magazin för Binnenpolitik, een för Butenpolitik. Dokus ut uns Heimat
(to'n Bispeel "Mien Dörp vörstellt" oder sowat as'n NDR sien "Landpartie").

En Regio-Soap, so as "Van Jonge Leu en Oale Groond" oder "Boven Wotter".

Ok wichtig: Live-Berichten von de plattdüütschen Schrieverpriesen.
Freudenthal-Pries, Fritz-Reuter-Pries etc. pp.

Villicht as Gegenveranstaltung to'n rhienschen Karneval en Ümtog to Faslam
överdragen.

Villicht ok mal en egen Film produzeren (aver dat köst denn temlich).

Jeden Sünndag en plattdüütschen Goddsdeenst överdragen.

Un dor mutt för elk Öller wat bi wesen. Lütte Kinner, Kinner in't
Schoolöller, junge Lüüd, dat middlere Öller un ole Lüüd.

Allens blot Ideen. Wenn man blot de Ressourcen dor sünd, denn kann'n dat
allens maken.

Marcus Buck


----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]



Wat man nich all' so an'n Wihnachten deit...

un wat ick giern noch ünner de Lüüd bringen mücht'...



"blauaügig" (blaagöögsch' ?, dor geiht't all los...) möten sien. Oewer ji
sünd je as de will'n Pierd. Man kann nich glieksen mit 'n Rupp-Di-Wupp de
hoge Ledder nah bawen hüppen, dat künn 'n Fehlschuß ward'n.

Woans heit dat man noch..."Die Jugend will stets mit Gewalt an erster Stelle
sein, doch wird man erst ein bischen alt, dann sieht man alles ein..." (Da
klopf ich meinen Hobel aus, und denk, du brummst mir gut.) Dat is fründlich
meint.

Blauäugig jüst upstunn's möt sien. Ja, fuurts all wat maken, angahn, wat tau
Tied noedig is. All' juug Andriewen brukt sien Tied.



Uns' Platt is afsackt, möt holl'n warden, wedder högerup stiegen, un so ein
lang' Täuwen up juug Angahn künn ihrer...hm, macht' gor nich seggen, ehr
Dodsien.

Oewer, so is dat je nich, Platt is all so oft dodseggt worden, un is nich
ünnergahn.



Wat ick nienich ahnt heff... Un dor hett Meck/Pom bi de "Spraken-Charta 2009
in SN ein Loff (Lob) krägen. Tschä, wat seggst nu, (un de OLD-BRD ... nich).

Un wat ji all' so angahn willn, maken wi je ok all tämlich lang. Uns liggt't
nich so de Oort up'n Putz tau haugen. Heff ji juug mal würklich in juug
Rebeitenümseihn, odder blotsen von gräunen Schriewdisch ut...



Oewer Probleme gifft't. Wiel vör Johren ein Moderater von uns' Radio, von de
Klüer 'n gaudet Platt up de Tung' harr, man tauväl Fählers mit sien frie
Snacken mitsleeken, bün ick bikam', heff poor Radio-Platt-(Sendungen) von je
drei Stunn' (morgens Klock 6 - 9) mithüert, un dat an'n Sünndag, all' sien
Fählers mit Dag, Klockentied,verkihrt un Henwies' richtig up ein fründlich
Oort, in'n Breiw schrewen un em mien Hülp, jawoll Hülp anbaden. Dat
Schimpen, Futtern nütt gor nicks. Nah drei Breiwen is de fründlich Kierl von
allein tau mi kam' un hebben mit Freud un Leiw sien Platt henkrägen. Hüt
sünd wi de besten Frünn'.Hei spendierte Kaffe(e) un Kauken un ick mien
Helpen.



Oewer liekers. Väl Radio-Reporters will'n je ok uns' Platt mit O-Tön
infangen, odder Nahrichten up Platt vermellen, Tschä, un dor kümmt mi
männigmal dat Gruugen an. Wat sall'ns daun, mit Leiw gahn's ehr Saak an, un
liekers döcht dat nicks. All'ns Hd.

oewersett un ok noch verkihrt snackt. Wat hebben Tauhürers/Taukiekers in
all' de Johren bi de Medien futtert; de blewen un blewen ümmer stuur. Künst'
nicks nich maken (de Meckl. verduwwelt oft sien Nee (nein)).



Mal eins schrew ick 'n fründlichen Breiw an TV/NDR "talk up platt". Wat
rutkäm, ein fründlich Anter von F. Werts mit ein schenkt Bauk un CD, un
Frünn' sünd wi ok word'n. Is doch bilütten wat. Na ja, dat löppt je nu
anners.



De Gedanken sünd frie, möt ok sien. Oewer nich mit'n Hauruck. Dat möt sick
"entwickeln".

De Medien möten wedder mihr Plattdüütsch tau Wuurt kamen laten, dor liggt ok
de Haaken, sei möten uns tau Sied stahn. Man, un dat is wohrraftig 'n
Problem. Mi dücht', de will'n nicks nich von Plattdüütsch weiten.



Un wo uns nu de Boewelsten dat Sporen uphalsen, kannst doch gor nich dat
Vörhebben in de Welt setten.



Ja, gaht in de Rebeiten, dat möt sien. Snackt mit de Lüüd (blot oewer
niemodsche Technik künn ok Harten kolt laten, un von naakigen Schriewdisch
ut kannst dat Problem nich in de Reig' kriegen. Plattdüütsch is ein läwig
Spraak, brukt un hett ehr Warmnis usw.



Kein "Einheitsplatt" is ut mien Sicht dat best' Nahsinn', dat räken ick hoch
an. Na klor, Ohnsorg hürt mit tau, un worüm nich ok uns'
"Fritz-Reuter-Bühn"??? De is all so oft afmeiert worden, un is doch Ohnsorg
gliek, man, dat will'ns (wecker?) nich wohrhebben.



Also, ick wull man blotsen dit Nahsinnen künnig maken, dat möt wassen un
gewiß gauden Mess (Dünger) möt ok sien.



So, nu drink ick mien 2. Tass' Kaffe(e)...



Noch 'n sinnigen Wihnachtsdag an all' de Lowlanners

von



Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 23:48:05 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:48:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.154805.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Resources

Dear Sandy *et al.*,

I remind you of our exchange about a clearer link to our archive. (See
below.)

Today I (twice) added a more obvious link to our front page:
http://lowlands-l.net/

It leads to a page with a link and instruction:
http://lowlands-l.net/archive.php

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.11.22 (06) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I am often asked to explain how to reach and use our archives. So here
> goes, to all of you to preempt individual responses.
>       * Go to
>         http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html .
>       * Click on "Search the archives".
>       * Click on the box next to "Substring search" to make a check
>         mark appear. (This will cause the search engine to search
>         texts of messages rather than only subject lines.)
>       * Enter your search terms. (If you are looking for a phrase,
>         write it in quotation marks to keep the string of words
>         together.)
>       * Click on the button entitled "Start the search".
> Please keep these instructions for later reference.

Ron,

I keep meaning to bring up: surely as Lowlands-L is a discussion group,
the archives should be the first thing you find to click on on the site?

When I visit the site, I find that link buried rather deep, considering
its importance. I used to have trouble finding the archives, though I've
got used to the idea that they're not as easy to find as you'd expect.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Sandy. Point well taken.

I'll try and see if I can make the link more prominent on our main page,
possibly this weekend.

Happy holidays!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 23:50:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:50:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.155055.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

 Hallo Marlou un Lowlanners,

du büst je bannig krägel, büst 'n Katteiker (auch für Schelm, Schlingel)
di hett woll de Hawer (Hafer) steckt (übermütig), faselst von dit un dat,
hest doch woll nich Grappen in'n Kopp. Un wat dat hümpelt, ja, mit
de Infäll'. Dat is je as bi'n Wihnachtsmann.  Nicks för ungaut. -
Wenn *DU *dissen niegen Kram vörslagen deihst, denn gah ok man mit 'n
Bispill
vör-an, nu grienst un wist mi dat oewerlaten. *Ji* willt dat je. Büst je ok
bi dien PLATTPARTU 'n flietigen Profi, nu fang man partu an; ick weit mien'
Weg.

Heff gistern dat Kabarett "spätlese" (15 Johr taugangen in Ost un West)
niege
pl. Texten tauschaben. Twei Mitmakers sünd ok ümmer flietig tau mien
Schaulstunn' VHS un nu bi "Kaffe(e) Ulrike" kamen. Spätlese hett sick gaud
rutmakt, hett all Priesen krägen. Regisseur helpt nah, Pianist, 'n gauden
Späler up dat Klawezimpel, einst Künstler von de Konzert- u.
Gastspieldirektion un denn af un an Ethel mit de Treckfiedel (von uns
Treckfiedel- Orchester 1987-1989, leider later ingahn, un noch anner
Mitmakers.  Wi 40 T-Fiedler hebben sogor in Leipzig (Haus der Heiteren Muse,
später abgebrannt) flietig upspält un TV harr sien Freud an uns. Mit
40 Muskanten güng de Post oewer af, un all'ns direkt/live.
Un väl tau väl, dat Hüpen is  tau dull. - Bäter is, wi gahn dat mit'n
klüftigen Kopp an. Wi will'n doch alltohop wassen. Liekers mit de Beinen up
de Ierd bliewen. Nich up Duer (Dauer) mit tauväl "narrschen Kram" (auch für
spinnen) de Tied so wegsmieten.
- Wi hebben je noch denn' Olljohrsabend (wedder 'n Vullbukabend) un
Niejohrsdag vör uns, later künnt' bäten reeller warden. "Ümmer sachte" säd
Siewert.
Hewt' ierst mal uns Platt högerup, dat's noediger.

Hollt jug fuchtig!

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 01:25:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:25:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.172540.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com>
Subject: Oscar Starck Books

Next month , I want to start to buying Marollien books of Oscar Starck.
I ordered book from usa / alibris and I am still waiting after full month
I am living in Istanbul and I am looking for a used book seller who have
these books , near here and sends books after credit card payment.

Do you know such a seller , not ebay , not paypal.

Thanks ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Hi, Mustafa!

It's great to hear from you from beautiful Istanbul. Forumuza hoş geldiniz.

I hope someone will have the answer you are seeking.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 01:37:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:37:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.173757.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (04) [NDS]

Leev Hanne, du seggst "sinnig", du seggst "suutje", du seggst "man sachten
mit de jungen Peer". Un du hest recht. Ik weet doch, dat de Welt von
Minschen regeert warrt, de nich wüllt, dat dat passert, wat "richtig" is. Ik
weet, dat dat, wat ik hier preester un preddig, nienich wohr warrt. Aver
liekers, mien Brägen is jung, mien Brägen is nich anpasst. Ik segg nich dat,
wat "realistisch" is, ik segg blot dat, wat ik för nödig holl! Wenn sik nix
ännert, ganz un gor ännert, denn blifft Plattdüütsch dood. Dat is so! Wenn
Plattdüütsch bestahn blieven schall, denn mutt sik _allens_ ännern. Wokeen
glöövt, dat kann nix warrn un dat is unklook dat överhoop to versöken, de
kann sik ok glieks in de spraaklich Dodenkist leggen. 'Keen wat anners
denkt, de schall dor för strieden.

"Realistisch starven" is för mi keen Option. De Fahn tominnsten mutt weihn,
wenn wi ünnergaht.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:07:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:07:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.27 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.100733.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Twölften

Wat kümmt, dat kümmt, un Hoeg is ok mit bi. . .

Leiw' Lowlanners,

Als zwölfter Tag nach Weihnachten (6. Jan. Dreikönigstag): 'in den hilghen
Daghe tu(u) twelften' (1371); 'den hylghen avend thom
twelfften' (1344);(..... dann die Tage und Nächte von Weihnachten bis zum
Dreikönigstag: 'in dem also genannten Zwelfften' (1683); in 'n Twölften
(Schönberg); hierfür meist Pl. dei Twölften.

*In dei Twölften *Pl. m. (Redensarten Verbote und Gebote); hei geiht as de
Hund in de Twölften, schleicht still und trübselig umher.
Aberglaube: In den  Twölften  treiben allerlei böse Geister ihr Wesen: in de
Twölfen geiht de Bös' ümher; de Drak treckt hauptsächlich in de Twölften;
wo  Fru Gaud'  bekannt is, erscheint diese fast ausschließlich in den
Twölften; das führt zur Namensdeutung: Fru Gaud' hett twölf Hunn', dat sünd
jo de Twölften; besonders fürchtete man in dieser Zeit den Wolf, weshalb
sein Name nicht genannt werden sollte (1683); um sich von diesen Wesen zu
schützen, muß man mancherlei Verbote beachten (hier nur einige Beispiele):
'während dieser Tage (werden) die Ställe nicht gereinigt; es wird nicht
gesponnen, gewaschen oder getrocknet; . . . auch darf man alsdann keine
Erbsen essen'; wer den Duurnbusch in de Twölften upkrönen ded', dei müßt 'n
Rosenbusch ok krönen. (De trurigen Saaken lat ick mal weg.)
Zur Abwehr der bösen Wesen schoß man in den Twölften in den Sod; in de
Twölften möt man Solt in den Sod smiten, süs supen Fru Waus' ehr Hunn'
dorut; den bösen Wesen wird der Zutritt zum Hause verwehrt, wenn man einen
neuen Besen vor das Hecktor legt.

Dies' könnten die Gebote sein. Reiche Erträge im kommenden Jahr;
wat in de Twöften döscht ward, gifft duwwelt Löhnung; man glaubte, daß in
den Twöften geborene Menschen  mihr seihn  können; daß aus dem Wetter der
zwölf Tage auf dasjenige der kommenden zwölf Monate geschlossen werden
könne also  de Dag' in de Twölften seggen vörut, woans de  Maande warden.

Nu wat taun Hoegen. Twölftengoorn  n. in den  Twölften  auf besondere Weise
gesponnenes Garn: Nijohrsnacht sall de Fru ne Fitz Goorn unrecht spinnen, de
Mann sall dat afhaspeln, beid' splitternaakt, dat is dat Twölftengoorn; dat
Twölftengoorn möt 'n Kind von soeben Johr spinnen un haspeln un afnähmen;
durch  Twölftengoorn steckte man Kinner, die viel schrien, stillschweigend
dreimal oder verkehrt herum (dat süll helpen); gegen (ick schriew hier
leiwer dat hd. Wuurt) Bettnässer soll man dem Kind  ne Fitz  Twölftengorrn
am Donnerstagabend um den Hals hängen. (Dat Twölftengoorn wier so wat as ein
Glücksgoorn.)
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Dit langt denn ok, dorför nu "Poesie"...

Helmuth Schröder
2.4.1842 - 11.12.1909
(ein beachtl. Lyriker seiner Zeit)

In den Twölften

Dörch Drewelsnei un Wulkennacht,
wenn nich kein Steern an'n Himmel,
tüht hen dörch't Land de wille Jagd:
De Jäger up den Schimmel.
Lut snorkt de Mähr; denn achter ehr
blafft hell ne Köppel Hunnen,
as harr s' de Spor van Bor un Beer
in Nacht un Newel funnen.
Un süht hei in den Weg sick stahn
en dumme Hanne Nüter,
bölkt: "Horido! Holl Mittelbahn!"
em an de wille Rüter.
Em grüten, wenn vörbi hei tüht,
de ollen griesen Eiken.
Hei haegt sick, wenn hei Gäwel süht,
an de noch Peerköpp bleiken.
Dat is Froh Wode, dei sin Riek
de Twölften deit beschrieden.
Süll hei Di drapen, dennso wiek
em ut den Weg bi Tieden!

Ein hartlich Gräuten.

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:09:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:09:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.27 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.100939.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (05) [EN]

I found one in:
http://www.zvab.com/advancedSearch.do?author=%22starck%2C+o%22&publisher=&title=&keyword=&anyWords=&isbn=&publicationYearFrom=&publicationYearTo=&priceFrom=&priceTo=&itemMedium=al&displayCurrency=EUR&countryOfSeller=all&lastXDays=-1&languageOfBook=all&sortBy=1&itemsPerPage=10&totalItemCount=200

yours
Uwe Tychsen

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:13:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:13:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.101332.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]

Hallo leiwe Marcus un all' Lowlanners,

*de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch, noch, un sei ward
weihn!

Du hest di nu inreiht, dat finn ick grotorrig, hest all 'n Kumpelment
verdeint, denn jung' Lüüd bruken wi, wenn't güng bannig väl, de eins as uns'
Nahkamen dorför sorgen, dat de Wind ut all' Richtungen uns' Fahn lustig
fladdern lött.
Man, du steihst an'n Anfang, uns' Spraak nich. Dat möten respektieren, sick
mit de Spraak vertruugt maken, all' ehrn Riekdaum annähmen un begriepen un
ok ehr männig Up un Dal, un för ehr Bestahn un Wiererkamen instahn. Grote
Dichters , Künstler un anner  einfache Lüüd ut verleden Tieden, de wi binah
all vergäten hebben un väl leiwe Minschen (ok hütigendaags) ehr Gäben,
männigmal mit Hartblaut, dat möten wi achten.
Hefft ji dat bether all mitkrägen. Dor möten männigmal ahn Komputer-Technik
Literatur
ok von dunnmals läsen.
Uns' Spraak is nich krank, sei is all lang' ut de Winneln rut un hett sick
grot rutreckt.
Fählers liggen mihr an'n Ümgang un mit ehr Snacken un womoeglich an de
Makers.
Sei hett, na ja, segg ick mal "ehr Krise" (nich so leeg as de Klimawannel,
Wärerwannel), un wenn in so ein Tied noch all'n up'n Kopp stellt ward. wat
sall dor bi rutkamen, dennkann't blot leeger kamen. Uns' Spraak is kein
"Gegenstand", sei is "Uns' Mudderspraak", jawoll Mudder un Spraak, de will
man nu so so dägt, 'n Hittkopp mit "Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n
flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch' Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ünner de
Lüüd bringen. Grote Schräd könn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken.
Uns' Spraak  paßt nich in ein "Labor". Wat bether löp is gaud lopen, dat
verdanken wi väl väl väl Minschen hier un wietaf, ok unsen LL-L Baas,
jawoll!
Hest du di mal utkundschaft, wat Minschen nah ehren Arbeitsdag för uns Platt
makt hebben un ümmer wedder "ehrenamtlich" mit bi sünd. Kiek di mal üm, dat
is as in einen Immenrump, wo sick wohrhaftig wat deit.
Hülp is noedig, kein Bautz-Bum upstunn's, nicks oewer't Knei bräken.
Frag  mal eins Plattsnackers, ob sei sich ein Grupp (Kinner un anner)
annähmen will'n, hm, kämpfen will'ns all un klauk räden ok, un wenn't up
ankümmt, hest di dacht.
Un dit Leiden künn de niege Weg bibeholln.
Tauierst an uns' Gören (Kinner, uns' Blaumen), uns' Nahkamen denken un ehr
up leiwe Oort un Gedüer all bi't Spälen (Kinnergorden, tau Huus) so
unvermaudens Plattdüütsch tauspälen, un hier deit sick je all lang' wat.
Un wat ein Minsch mal seggt hett "...wer zu spät kommt..", dat tellt hier
nich.
't is noch nich tau lat, oewer ein Bistahn, Hülp un Dank is noedig.

De Gedanken sünd frie, dien un mien (nu ok), alltohopen. Disketieren möt
sien ... oewer nich blotsen.

Von Harten mien Gräuten.

Hanne

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 00:57:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:57:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.12.27 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.165743.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Liëglanners,

Charles Gehring, director of the New Netherland Project at the New York
State library has been trying for 35 years to revive interest in the Dutch
roots of New York. So far, he already translated 7 200 pages of 17th century
Dutch texts. One of the journals that he translated, deals with the
adventures of a certain Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert, probably an
ancestor of Humphrey Bogart.

Re the USA, Gehring says:

“What you find out is how deeply the Dutch cast roots here and how much of
their culture they transmitted to this country.”

More here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/nyregion/27dutch.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 01:02:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:02:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.170207.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 05
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===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]

Leev Hanning, leven Lü,

wi wüllt all de Sprook wohren, dat schulln wi eerstmal fasthollen. Wi wüllt
ehr ok utbreden, denk ik; wi all wüllt, dat mehr un jüngere Snackers en
godes Platt beherrscht un Togang to mehr pd. Informaschonen hebbt, wieldess
de regionale un veelfältige Charakter vun Platt wohrt blifft. So wied sünd
wi övereen? Good. Wat wi för de Spraak doon köönt un wüllt, schull good
dördacht ween. Dat schulln wi denn best hier tosamen maken. Du, Hanning,
betonst, dat de Spraak al so veel överstahn hett un wiss noch mehr
överstahn warrt ("*de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch,
noch, un sei ward weihn!"). Marcus meent op de anner Siet, de Kulturverlust
hett hüüt ganz anner Tempo opnahmen, un veel davun warrt de Spraak nich mehr
överstahn, ehrdat se ünnergeiht (wenn ok mit weihen Fahn :-)). Dorwegen will
Marcus opleevst mit en "grotes" Medium as'n Kiekschapp-Senner Platt präsent
maken. Du, Hanne, wohrschuugst, de Spraak nu "'n Hittkopp mit
"Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch'
Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ünner de Lüüd to bringen." Du meenst, wenn ik Di
recht verstah, de Idee (den Droom, dat Wulkenslott...) vun en
Kiekschappkanaal orr (vöreerst) en Webstee, 'neem Platt in multimediale Wies
ünner de Lü bröcht warrt. Richtig? As ik Marcus verstah, hett he da nix
Överflächlichs plaant, keen Schund; he will veelmehr weertvulle un ganz
normale Informaschonen in Platt faten. So as dat mit Hoochdüütsch ok
passeert. Richtig, Marcus? Man Du, Hanne, wohrschuugst, un dat maakt mi
nadenkern. Du hest veel Künn vun de pd. Konsumentenschap un ok vun pd.
Medienarbeit, un mi dücht, Du kunnst de Lowlanners nauer seggen, wat Du för
Probleme förchten deist.

1. Wat nau is de "niemoodsch Aart", de wi meiden mööt? Internet un TV wiss
nich, de gifft dat ja al, un Du steihst dor achter, dat weet wi.
2. Wenn de Spraak al so veel verkraft hett, as Du seggst ("*de Fahn weiht
all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch, noch, un sei ward weihn!"), woso
schull se jüst an en Vörhebben as dat vun Marcus Schaden nehmen? Welk borgen
Gefohr sühst Du?
3. Du seggst: "Grote Schräd könn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken",
un dat maakt hellhöörn. Welk Phasen meenst Du? Fehlt Platt en
"Entwicklungsphase", ehrdat dat riep is för sowat as Feernsehn? Meenst Du,
dat de Spraak to ooltmoodsch is un moderniseert höört? Orr is de
Konsumentenschap nich praat daför? Slah doch mal vör, welk Schreed een
toeerst doon schull, dat so'n Projekt as Marcus sien Spood hebben kunn!
Woans wöörst Du de Saak anpacken?

Blangenbi hest Du ganz recht, Hanne, wenn Du mi wohrschuugst, mi nich to
övernehmen. Jümmers, wenn mi en Ünnerfangen good schient, bün ik as eerst
dorbi, min Mitdoon in'n Ring to smieten, wieldat dat de beste Aart is, en
Saak to feddern; man dat heff ik nu al bi so mennig Saken daan, dat meist
nix mehr nablifft vun mi, un ik weet, dat ik an min Grenz kamen bün. Maak Di
keen Sorg, ik övernehm mi nich.

Hartlich

Marlou

P.S. Mailst mi mal Din nieges Gedicht över'n Klimawannel?

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at t-online.de>
>

> Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]
>  Hallo leiwe Marcus un all' Lowlanners,
>  *de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr,*
>
Richtig.

> * *un sei weiht noch, noch,
>
Richtig.

> un sei ward weihn!
>
Hm.
Vör hunnert Johr weren dat noch so bi 20 Millionen Minschen Plattsnackers,
von de de grote Deel ok den ganzen Dag Platt snackt hebbt. Vondaag sünd noch
so bi 5 Millionen nableven. Dor sünd al de mittellt, de blot "Hoochdüütsch
op plattdüütschen Luudstand" snackt (un ok "Nedderlandsch op Nedersaksischen
Luudstand") un ok de, de man af un to Platt snackt. Un von disse 5 Millionen
staht bestimmt mehr as 4 Millionen al in't twete Halv von't Leven. Dood is
de Spraak noch lang nich, dat stimmt. Ik bün aver meist vermoden, dat de
Fahn in Tokumst blot noch labbig üm de Fahnenstang slackert. Stüttig in'n
Wind knattern schall se woll nich mehr. Nich ahn frischen Wind...

  Du hest di nu inreiht, dat finn ick grotorrig, hest all 'n Kumpelment
> verdeint, denn jung' Lüüd bruken wi, wenn't güng bannig väl, de eins as uns'
> Nahkamen dorför sorgen, dat de Wind ut all' Richtungen uns' Fahn lustig
> fladdern lött.
> Man, du steihst an'n Anfang, uns' Spraak nich. Dat möten respektieren, sick
> mit de Spraak vertruugt maken, all' ehrn Riekdaum annähmen un begriepen un
> ok ehr männig Up un Dal, un för ehr Bestahn un Wiererkamen instahn. Grote
> Dichters , Künstler un anner  einfache Lüüd ut verleden Tieden, de wi binah
> all vergäten hebben un väl leiwe Minschen (ok hütigendaags) ehr Gäben,
> männigmal mit Hartblaut, dat möten wi achten.
> Hefft ji dat bether all mitkrägen. Dor möten männigmal ahn Komputer-Technik
>  Literatur
> ok von dunnmals läsen.
> Uns' Spraak is nich krank, sei is all lang' ut de Winneln rut un hett sick
> grot rutreckt.
> Fählers liggen mihr an'n Ümgang un mit ehr Snacken un womoeglich an de
> Makers.
> Sei hett, na ja, segg ick mal "ehr Krise" (nich so leeg as de Klimawannel,
> Wärerwannel), un wenn in so ein Tied noch all'n up'n Kopp stellt ward. wat
> sall dor bi rutkamen, dennkann't blot leeger kamen. Uns' Spraak is kein
> "Gegenstand", sei is "Uns' Mudderspraak", jawoll Mudder un Spraak, de will
> man nu so so dägt, 'n Hittkopp mit "Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n
> flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch' Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ünner de
> Lüüd bringen. Grote Schräd könn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken.
> Uns' Spraak  paßt nich in ein "Labor". Wat bether löp is gaud lopen, dat
> verdanken wi väl väl väl Minschen hier un wietaf, ok unsen LL-L Baas,
> jawoll!
> Hest du di mal utkundschaft, wat Minschen nah ehren Arbeitsdag för uns
> Platt makt hebben un ümmer wedder "ehrenamtlich" mit bi sünd. Kiek di mal
> üm, dat is as in einen Immenrump, wo sick wohrhaftig wat deit.
>
"ehrenamtlich" is dat Problem. Dat reckt nich. Weertschop drifft uns Welt
an. Dat gifft noog Lüüd, de kannst du dusend Maal de Schöönheit von de
Spraak wiesen un se intresseert sik dor nich för. Aver wenn se dor Euros mit
maken köönt, denn kummt dat Intress! Dat mutt mööglich wesen mit
Plattdüütsch Geld to maken.
Düütschland gifft 2009 97,9 Milliarden Euro för Bildung ut. Wenn dor man 1%
von för Plattdüütsch utgeven warrn dee (de Andeel von de Platdüütschen an de
Bevölkerung liggt bi 5%, fröher wohrschienlich över 30%), denn dee de
plattdüütsche Kultur exploderen!
De Staat hett in de Vergangenheit Billionen utgeven för en System, dat dor
op utricht weer oder dat tominnst ahn mit de Wimper to tucken tolaten hett,
dat Plattdüütsch bilütten utstarvt.
Dat Recht op Moderspraak is en Minschenrecht. Un dit Minschenrecht hebbt de
Bundsrepubliek Düütschland un dat Königriek Nedderland för dat Plattdüütsche
ok goodkennt. Theoretisch hebbt de Plattdüütschen en Anspruch dor op, dat in
Plattdüütsch vergliekbor veel investeert warrt, as in Hoochdüütsch un in all
de annern Spraken von Düütschland (de aver jüstso slecht dorstaht as
Plattdüütsch). Wo liggt dat an, dat wi dor Lichtjohren wied von af sünd? Dat
liggt alleen dor an, dat nüms dat infeddert! Passeert ja nix, wenn de Staat
sik an sien Plichten nich höllt. Un de Staat gifft blot Geld, wenn he wat op
de Mütz kriggt, falls he dat nich gifft. Wenn de Plattdüütschen maal den
Staat op de Mütz haut, denn kunnen se ok Geld kriegen. Se müssen em aver
önnig op de Mütz geven, dat he dat ok markt. Demos un sowat.

Wenn wi sowat harrn as de Okzitaniers mit Anaram Au Patac, denn dee dat al
veel helpen. Ehrenamtliche Kulturarbeit is good, aver ahn Aktivismus helpt
de Hobbyismus nich veel.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 14:39:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:39:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.28 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.063904.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannellore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (05) [NDS]

Marlou . . .

ich möchte von nun ab keine weiteren Beiträge zu deinem Thema schreiben
...es hat keinen Sinn...  Heff mien Nahsinn' all mit Hartblaut schräwen.
Beweise die großen Worte nun endlich mit Taten....

Mein Gedicht  Klimawannel (eigentlicher Titel lautet anders) ist noch nicht
vollendet.

Liebe Freunde habt Verständnis ...

Ut deipen Harten mien Gräuten.

Hannelore Hinz
Schwerin Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 16:12:15 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:12:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.12.28 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.081215.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.12.27 (06) [NDS]

Am 25.12.2009, 20:45 Uhr, scraif Arend:

>
> Ik zal perbeern umme ’t uut te leggen:
> De“Balkenslob” waor de buur dürful is: Der bodenluke im heustock. Im
> heustock lag das heu auf einem meist hölzernen Rost etwa 40 cm über dem
> Boden.
>

Dank Ju, Arend,
nu weete ik je auk, wat för'n låk dat was/is. Ik hadde in Klöntrup (1824)
siin WB blaut fuunen:
sluppen: schlüpfen; un slupwinkel - dår was'k mi echter nig sieker, offet
dat liike wort åls 'slub' is.

Tofällig sin ik vandaage auk no up annere westfœlske verwante 'r van stöt:

In »DE HISTORIE VAN SLENNERHINKE.« van ümme 1630 (!), scriiwer alias
»Bernaris (= baron, oder = bern, dreck und aars?) Schockenschroyer
(Hosenmacher)«, wårsciinlik een uut de familge 'Bevervoorde', uut de
ümmergiegende van Osnabrügge(!), wi[d]rgiewen in Jellinghaus' Hermann siine
»NIEDERDEUTSCHE BAUERNKOMODIEN DES SIEBZEHNTEN JAHRHUNDERTS.« (1880):

slop = schlüpfe, loch. (ingelsk sauwat 'loop hole')
balkenslop, n., bodenloch. ('trap door')
slop, n. schlüpfe, luke. Drenthe slop: sluiphol s. bii vorbelden:

…ik klom uth dem sloppe, up den balken vom Scheppe…

Fletter-Luicke:
Nein sy heft neue klungels in den auren, men si heft nen kroygen
Boiler-wagen, dahr sit sy inne un luchtet dar
uth, asne Katte uth dem =>balken-sloppe, un heft auck ein eygen Leckey.

Un in dem Nauwort "TOT DEN [nederlandsen] LESER.":
(westf. , ndl.)
Ein slop, ne luycke
Ein balge, nen buycke
Dopvissche, Mosselen
Stertvedlen, vrusselen
Roe-Rupen, Gernelen
Tunteirse, Eerskijlen
Em knocke, nen butt

Groff-trulken, achterlossen
Starthacken, gate-bossen
Ein Luyt, ne Meyt
Gekeurt, geseyt.
Bassen, Billen
Ein Boltenholster, nen etcetera
Drumpauken, kijven
Der mule snoyre, swijgen.
Lunen, Grillen
Ne Gaus, ne Gans
Ein Rey, nen Dans
Nen Holsche, nen klump
Ne summe, ne slump.

Kanste maul seyn, wou sik uuse LL-voraulders, de dunnemaulige "Niderländers"
van verscillen tungenslag beholpen hadden…

=> Wan jümmant en pdf-kopigge (mar: 2,6 MB!) 'r van hebben wilt, giewet mi
per PM besceyd.

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 16:18:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:18:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.081840.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition

Dear Lowlanders,

I hope that all of you that celebrate it had wonderful Christmas.

I would like to suggest that whoever feels so inclined share some of their
local post-Christmas and New Year's traditions.

Hanne did some of this in German and Low Saxon already. It would be nice to
compare notes and also mention which parts of the traditions are still alive
in your lives today.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 23:06:41 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:06:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.28 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.150641.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 04
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L Childrens' Games

Paper airplanes in space!

-------

To see this story with its related links on the guardian.co.uk site, go to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/paper-plane-flight-record-japan

Paper plane enthusiast sets flight record

Takuo Toda targets 30-second barrier after hand-folded paper-only plane
stays in air for 26.1 seconds in Japan


This is a VERY ambitious claim ! Let me assure you that Scottish schoolboys
were making origami type paper aircraft from at least the 1930's.
While we never timed them, few wrist watches in the 1940's I am certain that
some of our Masters creations had excellent flight durations in excess
of this claimed world record. If caught in a small thermal those craft just
kept rising.
Favoured trick was rubbing the model on our shorts to give a curvature which
helped. These were proper Origami type planes made in two pieces with tail
base folded so it fitted into the pointed fusilage head prior to folding it
down to give a weighted "head" end. Plane was spread over the owner's palm,
index finger extended over body, then it was tossed while being held in a
vertical position.
Those planes were totally unlike the pathetic  one piece paper darts I have
encountered elsewhere. I wonder if Scots laddies still make them or do any
kids in other Lowlands nations ?
 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 01:43:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:43:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.174332.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (03) [EN]

In Scotland Christmas is still not as major a celebration as The New Year.
Traditionally the custom of First Footing begins just after January 1st
begins. Families wait at home for their First Foot who really
should be a dark haired man. He will enter bearing a piece of coal, and a
bottle of Scotch. Sometimes bread and salt will also be carried.
The visited family is now FREE. They ply the guest with drink of his choice,
shortbread, and black bun (described very well BY Sandy
as a fruit loaf in pastry). Others turn up and by then all doors should be
open to all friends and even strangers. Intervisiting now begins
and goes on well into next morning. In my time up until the 1960's each home
would have a sumptious spread of cakes, cheese, and sandwiches.
Canned salmon was mandatory on some of those but Edinburgh Scots followed a
ghastly tradition of soaking the fish in vinegar "Tae gie it
sum flay-vurr".
Men and women tended to separate, women to sip sherry or cups of tea, men
getting stuck into the booze and becoming zombies.
Later in the afternoon when they finally awoke they paid for their
indulgences but then it's on to visit other friends.  "Hey Jimmy it's guid
tae see Yer huv Yer New Year" would be the welcoming cry to visitors up
until at least March.
Those days the old First Footing has largely been replaced in Edinburgh by
crowds massing around The Tron Kirk in the High Street.
Gimme the Old Ways any time.
On 29/12/2009, at 2:18 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

I would like to suggest that whoever feels so inclined share some of their
local post-Christmas and New Year's traditions.


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 20:22:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:22:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.29 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.122212.0800.>

============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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============================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.28 (04) [EN]

> From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
> Subject: LL-L Childrens' Games
>
> > Paper airplanes in space!
> > -------
> > To see this story with its related links on the guardian.co.uk site,
> > go
> > to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/paper-plane-flight-record-japan
> > Paper plane enthusiast sets flight record
> > Takuo Toda targets 30-second barrier after hand-folded paper-only
> > plane stays in air for 26.1 seconds in Japan
>
>
> This is a VERY ambitious claim ! Let me assure you that Scottish
> schoolboys were making origami type paper aircraft from at least the
> 1930's.
> While we never timed them, few wrist watches in the 1940's I am
> certain that some of our Masters creations had excellent flight
> durations in excess
> of this claimed world record. If caught in a small thermal those craft
> just kept rising.

Tom,

I made these planes too, but I wouldn't call them proper origami planes
as the two sheets of paper were different sizes and you did need to tear
the nose down the middle to ensure that the tail stayed in.

I doubt if the use of thermals is allowed in the world record! Thirty
seconds is a very long time indeed for a paper aeroplane to stay
airborne.

I've made various other styles of plane, and the one that stays up
longest is one designed with the paper rolled and flattened to make the
leading edge of the wing much thicker than the rest of the wing. This is
nearer to origami but tends to need a paper clip or something to weight
it. It does, however, fly very flat and shallow, so it can go long
distances before reaching the ground, and any unsatisfactory aspects to
the flying can be ironed out by curving the rear of the wings to make it
fly straighter if it's veering to the side, and also make it fly
shallower so that it goes further.

That sort of plane is what I'd think of as suitable for a world record:
you don't really throw it, you just set it moving gently and leave it to
do its own flying. The Scottish, and judging from the chap's throwing
technique in the photo in the article, also the Japanese planes are
rather crude and the time aloft would seem to depend on the thrower's
strength as much as the design of the plane.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 20:45:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:45:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.29 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.124500.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Sandy et al.,
>
> I remind you of our exchange about a clearer link to our archive. (See
> below.)
>
> Today I (twice) added a more obvious link to our front page:
> http://lowlands-l.net/
>
> It leads to a page with a link and instruction:
> http://lowlands-l.net/archive.php

Thanks, Ron, better!

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 21:50:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:50:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.135040.0800.>

============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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============================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.28 (01) [DE-NDS]

 Hallo Marcus, Heiko, all,

mi is infulln, lütt pd. Filme usw. gifft dat ja al in't Web, wiss kennt Ji
ok http://plattcast.de/ un http://plattpod.de/. De een schient noch ganz
good to diegen, de anner hett sachs siet Sommer den Bedreev instellt -- wat
ja mennig Grünnen hebben kann. Beed Sieden sünd nich so ganz bekannt woorn,
dücht mi. Dat sleit anschienen op Marcus sin Siet dal, as he seggt, in't Web
söcht de Lü sik dat nich. Dat mutt allerdings ja nich heten, dat en Platt-TV
nich ok en Flop warrn kunn. Wat kunn een vun solk Sieden lehren? Weer't
intressant, mit de Makers to snacken un klook to kriegen, wat de för
Besökers kregen hebbt un wat se daan hebbt, dat se mehr bekannt warrt? Ik
heff mit beed Makers bloots ganz bilöpig Kuntakt hatt. Een davun hett wat
mit'n NDR to kriegen, meen ik. Kennt een de wat nehger? Schulln wi/schull ik
de mal anticken?

Ik wünsch all Maten en godes nieges Johr! Hartlich!

Marlou

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 04:00:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:00:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.200013.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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===============================================


From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Folks,

Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
aspect that requires serious consideration.

Honestly and personally speaking, I agree with all of them to some degree. I
feel that such possibilities ought to be looked into but that at the same
time any type of venture ought to be extremely well planned so as to prevent
what in Australia is called a "fizzogh" (as in a fireworks rocket heading
for the sky with "Fzzzzz ..." and then the disappointed public calling "Ogh
..." because the promising rocket just fizzled out without the expected
bang).

As usual, it pays to look across our Lowlands fence to see what is being
done on behalf of minority languages similarly endangered.

For one thing, I recommend taking a look at the new video section within the
Web presence of *Forverts* (פֿאָרווערטס), the Yiddish counterpart of the
newer English-language *Forward*, an American Jewish weekly that has been
around, first as a daily, since 1897, based mostly on the then German Social
Democratic newspaper *Vorwärts*.

http://yiddish.forward.com/forverts/video

Since all of it is in Yiddish, most of you will understand little to nothing
(though more experienced German speakers will at least catch the general
drift). But you will probably understand the format used here. It consists
mostly of a mixture of documentary reports and video-taped interviews. For
instance, at the moment the first video is about the 100th anniversary
Yiddish Congress in Jerusalem, the second one is about Yiddish-inclined
visitors from Paris, the third is about an assassinated Jewish Soviet
writer, the fourth about the inauguration of the *Forverts* Association, the
fifth about a Yiddish book fair, the sixth about a meeting of a Yiddish
authors’ association in New York City, the seventh a conversation with
Shmuel Atzmon, the current director of YidiSHpil (a Yiddish theater in Tel
Aviv), the eighth a talk by Alex Dufner from Australia, and the ninth about
a Yiddish theater festival.

Anyway, this is one of the efforts put forth on behalf of Yiddish. Perhaps
it inspires.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:02:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:02:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2009.12.30 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.080254.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Events

 For info,
I hope the Lowlander community will submit a lot of papers.
I think Collin Williams, an invited speaker, was once on this Lowlands List.
Regards,
Roger
----
Date: 07-Oct-2010 - 09-Oct-2010
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Contact Person: Deborah Piston-Hatlen
Meeting Email: eurlangsindiana.edu
Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~eurlangs<http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eeurlangs>
Linguistic Field(s): Applied Linguistics; General Linguistics; Language
Documentation; Ling & Literature; Sociolinguistics
Call Deadline: 15-Mar-2010

Meeting Description:
*The 'Minority Languages in Europe'* conference will explore aspects of
European minority languages and related cultural issues.

Invited Speakers:
- José Ignacio Hualde, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
- Bernat Joan i Mari, Secretari de Política Lingüística de la Generalitat de
Catalunya
- Claude Truchot, Université de Strasbourg
- Jean-Luc Vigneux, Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Ch'Lanchron, author,
singer,composer, translator
- Colin Williams, Cardiff University

Call for Papers

Abstracts are invited for 20-minute talks (plus 10 minutes for discussion)
on any aspect of European minority languages and related cultural issues,
including but not limited to:

- Sociolinguistics
- Geopolitical issues
- Cultural vitality
- Language endangerment & revitalization
- Linguistic issues: descriptive & theoretical
- Orthography/literacy
- Education
- Fieldwork/research issues
- Language & identity
- Media & technology

Abstracts should be no more than one page in length (a second page may be
included for examples and references), in 12-point type. All margins should
be at least one inch wide (or 2.5 cm). Authors are asked to submit their
abstracts online using our online submission page:
http://linguistlist.org/confcustom/eurlangs_2010

Click on the Abstract Submission link in the top right corner of the page
and follow the instructions provided. Please be sure to include all
requested information on the abstract submissions page. To facilitate the
review process, please indicate the general topic addressed in the proposal.
Preference will be given to presentations not duplicated at other major
conferences. Authors are asked to indicate prior or planned presentations of
their papers.
Email: eurlangsindiana.edu
Website: http://www.indiana.edu/~eurlangs<http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eeurlangs>

Organizing Committee: Julie Auger, Deborah Piston-Hatlen, Kevin Rottet, Rex
Sprouse

Sponsored by the Indiana University West European Studies National Resource
Center
---------------
Julie Auger, Associate Professor
Director of Graduate Studies, French Linguistics
Depts. of French & Italian and Linguistics
Indiana University
1020 E. Kirkwood Ave.
Bloomington, IN 47405
USA
Phone: (812) 855-7958/7293
Fax:     (812) 855-8877
Email:  jauger at indiana.edu

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:04:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:04:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.30 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.080428.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.29 (01) [EN]

Obviously not our design which was origami although we had never heard of
the word then.
A rectangle of paper was used one corner of which was folded over diagonally
then same repeated on other side.
This delineated a square with saltire grooving. The lower unfolded portion
was then folded up on itself, scored strongly and torn off,
this formed the basis of the tail. Next steps are tricky to describe in
words but no cutting or tearing was involved. A saltire was then formed on
one end of the tail, this was folded to a point and incorporated in the
pointed end of the main body which was then folded down to retain it.
All made from a single rectangle of paper.

On 30/12/2009, at 6:22 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

I made these planes too, but I wouldn't call them proper origami planes
as the two sheets of paper were different sizes and you did need to tear
the nose down the middle to ensure that the tail stayed in.


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:13:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:13:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.081326.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===============================================

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Folks,

Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
aspect that requires serious consideration.
Well, I view it from a very far distance, but noted two things during the
holidays that I wouldn't have seen when I first studied German some fifty
years ago.  One:  my wife bought me a Christmas CD called Weihnachts
Schlager, and one of the "hits" on it was Wedder Mol Wiehnacht.  Two:  we
attended the German service Christmas morning at St. Johannes Ev. Luth.
Kirche in Hamilton, and since I found the Predigt a bit boring, thumbed
through the hymnal which was new since the last time I had been there.  Out
of some 700 offerings, four were in what they called "Platt."  Too little,
too late?

Ed Alexander, Ontario, Canada

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>


> Subject: Language promotion
>
> Folks,
>
> Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
> extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
> presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
> web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
> seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
> specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
> attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
> language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
> not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
> to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
> quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
> language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
> Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
> magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
> overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
> aspect that requires serious consideration.
>
> Honestly and personally speaking, I agree with all of them to some degree.
> I feel that such possibilities ought to be looked into but that at the same
> time any type of venture ought to be extremely well planned so as to prevent
> what in Australia is called a "fizzogh" (as in a fireworks rocket heading
> for the sky with "Fzzzzz ..." and then the disappointed public calling "Ogh
> ..." because the promising rocket just fizzled out without the expected
> bang).
>
>  That's true, but I didn't just fantasize ("fantasieren" in German has a
ring of "sillyness" or even an unhealthy mental state, I hope that
submeaning wasn't intended here ;-) I'd rather call it "musings", "food for
thought" or something like that) about some "type of media presence", but
very specifically about a TV station.

The theoreticist Marshall McLuhan has coined the term Gutenberg galaxy (<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Galaxy>). The Gutenberg galaxy is a
world in which 'print' is the most influential, the key medium. McLuhan
proposed (in 1962), that the Gutenberg galaxy was at its end. Modern
electronic mass media would become the new key medium of a new age. This new
age was later named McLuhan galaxy (a world in which TV is the key medium)
or Turing galaxy (a world in which computers/the internet are the key
medium). We are going towards the Turing galaxy but the McLuhan galaxy has
not yet ended (and TV will stay to be very influential even after the end of
the McLuhan galaxy). While the Gutenberg galaxy was never able to do much
harm to mainly unprinted languages like Low Saxon, the McLuhan galaxy
immediately was able to replace Low Saxon with German, cause TV unlike print
is spoken word.

Therefore, so I believe, a TV station is an absolute must-have, if we want
to maintain a language. At the moment Low Saxon develops centrifugal. Low
Saxon in the Netherlands develops towards Dutch, Low Saxon in Germany
develops towards German, Mennonite Low Saxon develops towards whatever is
the national language of their place of living. A common TV station would
establish a new common public and would change the development to a more
centripetal one. A development where Low Saxon dialects take other Low Saxon
dialects as a model and not foreign languages.

A TV station would be a place to advertise or to inform the interested
public about Low Saxon publications, music etc. No artist, writer or
whatever can be successful without people knowing about him. I can easily
name dozens of modern American musicians and every other German can do so
too. I doubt that most Americans can name many modern German musicians. Is
that cause Americans make better music? No, it's cause the information flow
from America to Germany is better than vice versa. Stars are never born by
word of mouth, they are made by enduring media attention. So the whole Low
Saxon cultural scene would benefit from a TV station.

And most importantly: You don't have to pay for watching TV and TV is easy!
You switch it on and lean back on your couch. For books you have to pay and
books don't "work" any more, if you are tired out after a long day and stop
to pay attention to all the squiggly little symbols. TV is still perfectly
enjoyable without having to exert your brain too much. Internet too is very
complicated to everybody not using it every day. And the computer too stops
doing anything without constant user input.

That may sound like I overemphasize the complicatedness of books or
computers, but many people are like that. I guess, most people on this list
are quite confident to use books and computers, but there are millions out
there who are not. Many people just want to push a button and passively
consume some show.

I am fully aware that a useful TV station has costs in the magnitude of over
100 Million Euro. This is, so my estimation, about 100-fold the sum of _all_
state spending in aid of Low Saxon at the moment. So we won't get a TV
station anytime soon. That's not realistic without major changes. But it's
still _necessary_ if we want Low Saxon to prosper. And it's not an undue
demand. Germany and the Netherlands both officially recognized Low Saxon as
a language and as worth of preservation. If that is not seen as "some piece
of paper we signed to appease some people", but if they _mean_ it, then they
have to invest more money.

It's sad to say, but politicians _never_ just do the things that are
"right",  they do how they please and just ask "can I get through with it?"
If they sign an international treaty that aims at protecting a language and
then do nothing to fulfil the requirements of the treaty, that's obviously
not "right". But as long as no protesters march to the town halls or
parliaments, as long as there are no trials for violating treaties, they can
get through with it.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language promotion

Marcus, "fantasize" does not necessarily connote the idea of "delusional"
German *fantasieren* has. I meant it more in the sense of "dreaming" or
"imagining".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:23:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:23:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2009.12.30 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.082336.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Members

Dear Lowlanders,

As we approach the last day of 2009 with all of its Hogmanay and other types
of New Year's Eve merriment, I need to remind you that another two reasons
for merriment will be the birthdays of our long-time members Sandy Fleming (
<sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>) and Roger Thijs (<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
).

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 00:23:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:23:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.162353.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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===============================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (03) [EN]

 Hello Marcus & Reinhard!

Thank you, Reinhard, for the Yiddish link. It is perfectly understandable
:-), and obviously all the videos are on Youtube as well. So they use
several platforms simultaneaously.

Marcus, you write: "So we won't get a TV station anytime soon. That's not
realistic without major changes. But it's still _necessary_ if we want Low
Saxon to prosper." This sounds desolate. Do you mean to say that Low Saxon
has done, since there won't be a TV station? Let us not give in so easily! I
am confident Platt can be kept up without a TV station. Hanne, before she
left the thread, was very positive it could; I think she may be right,
although a TV station would be a fine thing to have. Let us not demand the
moon and otherwise resign. Let us find small steps that really can be taken.
What can be done with the energies and money that now *are *in the pd.
issue? Forgive me if this has been discussed many times before in this
forum; but it looks to me we are up to something concrete, something that
can be *done*, and I would love to know what it is.

Your remarks about the centrifugal development sound quite plausible.
Suppose we had settled what the "center" of Platt should be, what could be
done about this? It sounds like an organizing and communicating issue to me.
Now I am a member of the pd. Raad för Sleswig-Holsteen
http://www.heimatbund.de/niederdeutsch/ndrat.php. This board has done some
very good work in school politics lately; in some other respects they are
more conventional and rather slow. But I learned that the Raad in
Sleswig-Holsteen is the most active of all Bundesländer; most other northern
german Bundesländer have only crippled versions or no pd. Raad at all. In
Hamborg however things seem to be changing. Maybe there are other pd. "lobby
groups" in other regions, in or outside Germany, that might "represent" the
pd. community of their region. Could anything be done by a common movement
of such organizations? I admit I am quite a failure at penetrating
administrative structures & bureaucracies. But at best such a movement might
even exert pressure as to (the money needed for) better media presence of
Platt...

Thoughtful greetings,

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language promotion

You're welcome, Marlou.

"Perfectly understandable"?! Are you sure?

Well, I guess the subject matter kept the number of words from Hebrew,
Aramaic and Slavic down, so you may have guessed their meaning within the
given contexts. But I remember frequent use of Hebrew-derived expressions
like *bekhlal* (< Hebrew *bekhlal* בכלל) 'in general', *avade* (< Hebrew *
waday* ודאי) 'of course', 'certainly', 'definitely', *mekhaber* (< Hebrew *
meHaber* מחבר) 'author', and *koydem-kol* (< Hebrew *qodem-kol* קודם כל )
'first of all'. Guessing those would have been difficult. Was that what the
smiley was about?

Guten Rutsch!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 01:58:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:58:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.175829.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]

Hello Reinhard,

upps, an empty answer just slipped out, sorry! Yes, that was what the smiley
was about. "Perfectly understandable" means: I got what the people talked
about, and I mostly got what they wanted to say on the matter. I could have
paraphrased it in German (or Platt :-)), if no great detail would be
required. For a foreign language that is quite good, isn't it? I feel proud
and satisfied :-)

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

You're welcome, Marlou.

"Perfectly understandable"?! Are you sure?

... Was that what the smiley was about?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Yep, Marlou. I'm insanely proud of you.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Marcus, you write: "So we won't get a TV station anytime soon. That's not
> realistic without major changes. But it's still _necessary_ if we want Low
> Saxon to prosper." This sounds desolate. Do you mean to say that Low Saxon
> has done, since there won't be a TV station? Let us not give in so easily! I
> am confident Platt can be kept up without a TV station.
>
I try to look at it in a positivist way most of the time, but if we are
realistic, Low Saxon is in very bad shape. My own home area (the only area I
have first hand experiences) is a very rural area, that has maintained Low
Saxon as a daily mean of communication in several settings. I don't think
there are any areas, that have maintained Low Saxon much better than my home
area (together with rural areas along all the Northern Sea coast), except
perhaps for Eastern Frisia. Westfalia, Eastfalia, Mark Brandenburg have
almost completely lost Low Saxon as a daily mean of communication.
In my area the generation 70+ has Low Saxon as mother tongue and they tend
to speak Low Saxon whenever applicable, cause they feel uncomfortable with
German (they can still speak it perfectly fluent, but it's still not the
same as their native language). In the generation 50-70 most people speak
Low Saxon very well and have learned it natively, but they are so accustomed
to German, that the nativity bonus doesn't play out. They often feel better
with German. People 30-50 years old may speak a reasonable Low Saxon, but
they generally feel more comfortable with German. Even among the youth there
are some rare native speakers. The more you pay attention, the more you will
spot I realized. Sometimes it happens that by pure chance you notice that a
person you have conversed with in German since a decade happens to speak Low
Saxon at home and you never knew. That's cause German is the total dominant
_default_ between younger people. I don't know anybody under the age of 40
who is more comfortable in Low Saxon than in German. When working at my
plattmakers.de dictionary I realied that at least 70% of the vocabulary that
can be found in older dictionaries ('older' meaning like a 1930s dictionary)
is "asleep" today. Not completely forgotten, but not used anymore, cause you
cannot rely, that your conversation partner knows the word.

Competent speakers are much too old. Nobody young enough to have young
children is competent enough to transmit the language to a new generation.
If the generation in the child-bearing age of 25-40 would teach Low Saxon to
their children, it would be the ugliest Low Saxon imaginable. We cannot rely
on in-family transmission of the language. It's much too late. So we need
some way of spreading the language outside families.
TV is no good solution for this. Cause language aquisition from TV would
lead to an ugly lowest common denominator Low Saxon. No, language aquistion
must be done in kindergarten and school by competent speakers. TV can only
tune in when the foundation is already lead. TV can support interest in the
language and awareness and positively influence identity. But it is no good
replacement for face to face language aquisition from competent speakers.

We need support from schools and kindergartens. Not only some model projects
like in Simonswoold, but all over the country. This cannot be done with
voluntary helpers. We need financial commitment from the states in this area
too. That will be even more expensive than the TV station, I guess.

Only a TV station without school support would be a great start. Only school
support for Low Saxon without a TV station would be great too. But only a
combination of both would generate the most effect.

 Hanne, before she left the thread, was very positive it could; I think she
> may be right, although a TV station would be a fine thing to have. Let us
> not demand the moon and otherwise resign.
>
I do not resign, I try to do my part. But if Earth is inhabitable anything
but demanding the moon (or Mars) is actually the same as resigning. We
cannot stay where we are, we have to make leaps or we will vanish.

 Let us find small steps that really can be taken. What can be done with the
> energies and money that now /are /in the pd. issue?
>
We can arrange a humane death for Low Saxon. Really, I see exactly _no_
chance that Low Saxon keeps to be a living language without massive
additional engagement. It will take many decades until all the living
speakers are dead, but there is no chance that Low Saxon will be anything
else than some kind of retro language like Cornish in a century or a century
and a half.

 Forgive me if this has been discussed many times before in this forum; but
> it looks to me we are up to something concrete, something that can be
> /done/, and I would love to know what it is.
>  Your remarks about the centrifugal development sound quite plausible.
> Suppose we had settled what the "center" of Platt should be, what could be
> done about this?
>
If Earth would be hollow you would be able to hover in some spheric area
around the center. A gravitational body doesn't need to have a "center" like
a point. All of the matter produces gravity. And every dialect emits gravity
too. There doesn't need to be a definite "center" and the body can still
hold together. Low Saxon's problem at the moment is, that it is torn apart
by gravitational shear forces from several massive objects that came too
close to our planet. Thr only option for the planet to solve this problem,
is to gain distance from the mass objects so that the gravity outweighs the
shear forces again.

 It sounds like an organizing and communicating issue to me. Now I am a
> member of the pd. Raad för Sleswig-Holsteen
> http://www.heimatbund.de/niederdeutsch/ndrat.php. This board has done some
> very good work in school politics lately; in some other respects they are
> more conventional and rather slow. But I learned that the Raad in
> Sleswig-Holsteen is the most active of all Bundesländer; most other northern
> german Bundesländer have only crippled versions or no pd. Raad at all. In
> Hamborg however things seem to be changing. Maybe there are other pd. "lobby
> groups" in other regions, in or outside Germany, that might "represent" the
> pd. community of their region. Could anything be done by a common movement
> of such organizations? I admit I am quite a failure at penetrating
> administrative structures & bureaucracies. But at best such a movement might
> even exert pressure as to (the money needed for) better media presence of
> Platt...
>

I'm not a good networker and I'm not a good leader. I'm just a good
theoreticist and I'm okay at working on my own little things. Whenever I try
to do little steps I start to say "This is piecemeal." and I start to hate
that little-steppism and I fantasize about how it would be done _right_. And
so I always end up with plans how to rescue the world, that are completely
unrealistic on a pragmatic level.

Marcus Buck

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 16:01:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:01:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.31 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.31.DEC.2009.080159.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 31 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]

Leve Marcus, Din Beschrieven vun de Laag vun Platt stimmt. Leider. Un wenn
dat geiht, as dat bi Minschen so geiht -- mit beten goden Willn,
beten Schullertucken un ahn veel Energie --, denn geiht dat ok in de Grütt.
Dat sünd sachs bloots so truschüllige Goodminschen as wi, de da noch nich
nalaten wüllt. Bloots twee Saken:

1: Dat mit de Kinnergoorns is jüst dat, an wat de pd. Raat för SH as neegst
groot Projekt bigahn will -- sünnerlich de pd. Utbillen vun
Kinnergoorner/schen. Wi beweegt villicht doch wat.

2: Keen vun us kann allens ween. Du büst en goden Theoretiker, ik bün good
in lütte Schreed -- un en Nettwarkersch bün ik eentlich ok, man mehr bün ik
Warkersch as Nettwarkersch. Wi brukt solk Lü as Di, de ut de
Vagelperspektiev op allens kiekt, liekso nödig as de, de nerrn anpackt, un
de, de hier un da de richtigen Lü kennt. Denn kunnen wi wat beschicken. Giff
nich up! *Wat *wi beschickt, överleggt wi nauer in't niege Johr. Okay?

Ik grööt all hartlich un wünsch en schönes 2010!

Marlou

 ----- Original Message -----

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]
 I'm not a good networker and I'm not a good leader. I'm just a good
theoreticist and I'm okay at working on my own little things. Whenever I try
to do little steps I start to say "This is piecemeal." and I start to hate
that little-steppism and I fantasize about how it would be done _right_. And
so I always end up with plans how to rescue the world, that are completely
unrealistic on a pragmatic level.

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]

Hallo Ron,

(fast ein Rechenschaftsbericht zum Jahresende, aber ein kl.
Erfahrungsbericht)

Ende 2004 erarbeiteten wir "Landesheimatbund Mecklenburg-Vorpommern e.V
(Prof. Dr. Horst Wernicke Präsident) mit der Landesregierung/Kultur" ein
Projekt für einen Sprachkurs "Niederdeutsch" in Kita's und Schulen, Bereich
Nordwestmecklenburg, Realschule "Käthe Kollwitz" 19217 Rehna.
Das heißt, dieses Projekt mußten wir erst erarbeiten. Wir taten es mit
Eifer, Freude und Liebe etwas für die Kinder zu tun. Auserwählte Experten,
reich an Erfahrungen, wurden berufen. Wir berieten gemeinsam unseren Weg.
Mitmacher waren Kindergärtnerinnen, Lehrerinnen, Autoren, Schauspieler,
Unterhaltungskünstler, ein bekannter Komponist/Chorleiter (Lieder im
Jahreslauf, alte und neue Kinderlieder u.v. mehr; er reiste immer mit seinem
Musikinstrument an), eine Tanzpädagogin (Tänze in Verbindung mit dem
Brauchtum wie u.a. Sommer/Jahreszeiten, Ernte usw.).
Es würde ein zu langer Bericht werden, zählte ich hier alles auf.

Wir starteten dieses Projekt am 2.12.2004. Ich durfte in Rehna den Anfang
machen und die Landesregierung/Kultur (Dr. B.) war auch zugegen. Auch meine
Treckfidel, es war ein toller Start!
So trafen wir uns  regelmäßig  bei Wind und Wetter jede Woche in Rehna mit
den Kindergärtnerinnen und und und.
Und sie kamen aus ihren Bereichen (Dörfer, Dörfchen), oft müde und
abgekämpft nach ihrem stressigen Arbeitstag mit Kindern, sie arbeiteten
fleißig mit und waren begeistert. Dieser Weg, unmittelbar mit ihnen
gemeinsam zu arbeiten, helfen, weiterbilden, Mut machen, brachte auch den
Erfolg. Ein Vertreter Dr. B. oder H.? von der Landesregierung/Kultur war oft
zugegen und war mit unseren Leistungen zufrieden.

Nach gut fünf Monaten konnten sich die Kinder in einem öffentlichen,
festlichen Programm (Kleintheater) mit ihren erworbenen vielseitigen
Kenntnissen ihren Eltern, Onkel und Tanten und Omis, auch Uromis und vielen
ihnen gewogenen Gästen vorstellen.
Alle lernten aus dieser Erfahrung und bemühten sich später immer wieder, den
gegebenen Möglichkeiten, noch bessere Wege zu finden.

Auch aus meiner Klasse VHS haben junge Lehrerinnen mit ihren
Plattdeutschgruppen 1. und 2. Preise in Wettbewerben (Wi snacken Platt)
belegt. Drauf bin auch ich stolz. Heute treten sie gelegentlich mit ihren
kl. Programmen zu Geburtstagen oder anderen Anlässen auf.

Als mehrmaliges Jurymitglied konnte ich mir zugleich einen Überblick über
den Stand und Pflege und Weiterkommen hier in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern machen.
Meine Zuarbeit erfüllt mich mit Dankbarkeit.

Dank auch dir, lieber Ron.

Das alte Jahr klingt aus...
Allen ein glückliches 2010!

Herzlich gemeint.
Hanne

http://www.regierung-mv.de/cms2/Regierungsportal_prod/Regierungsportal/de/bm/Themen/Kultur/Aufgabengebiete/Heimatpflege/Landesheimatverband_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_e.V./index.jsp

http://www.ndr.de/unternehmen/organisation/rundfunkrat/rundfunkrat4_org_ndr1154_p-10.html

http://www.meck-pomm-hits.de/contenido-4.4.5/cms/front_content.php?idart=884

�

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 16:13:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:13:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.12.31 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.31.DEC.2009.081314.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 31 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===============================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

This morning I saw the fireworks show in/from "Synny" (Sydney, Australia)
and bore in mind that our friends in New Zealand had their transition into
2010 a couple of hours earlier.

As the new common year works its way westwards, I wish all of you and yours,
in fact *all* of us, nothing but the best for the twelve months ahead.

It is time to start preparing for our 15th anniversary in late April and
early May. For one thing, I suggest you consider helping to expand our
anniversary presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/). Please ask me
if you have specific questions about that.

And, again, happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

�

==============================END===================================

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 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 00:20:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:20:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.30.NOV.2009.162057.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 November 2009 - Volume 06
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (02) [EN]

 Dear Lowlanners,


perhaps you remember our discussion about the way on which we got the word E
:'church' , DE 'Kirche' into our languages - because we know it is a
derivation of ???????????????? (*kuriak??n* "the Lord's")

or better, as Ron stated, of ?????????????? (*kuriak?? * "of the Lord").


Very interesting thought, Reinhard, when you write:

The earliest Greek-speaking communities in Germanic-speaking areas were
probably Jews that followed the Romans.



But - maybe I've got another surprising theory.

.

Today I made some more investigations and discovered a very interesting fact
- the Irish/Scottish way to Christianity went via the Eastern christian
communities, not via Rome!!

de.wiktionary says:

>> Das keltische Christentum weist viele Wesensz??ge des vorniz??anischen
Christentums auf, >> es d??rfte n??her mit den Ostkirchen, der heutigen
orthodoxen Kirche als mit der r??mischen >> Westkirche verwandt gewesen sein.

(English: "The Celtic Christendom shows many characteristics of the
pre-nizaeanic Christianity; it should have been related closer to the
Eastern Churches, todays Orthodox, than to the Roman Western Church.")

And further:

>> Die keltischen Kl??ster legten gro??en Wert auf das Studium der Bibel,
Irland bekam den

>> Ruf der ???Insel der Heiligen und Gelehrten???. Karl der Gro??e lud aus diesem
Grund viele

>> irische Gelehrte an seinen Hof.

(English: "The celtic monasteries placed value on the studies of the holy
bible, Ireland thus got the halo as an "Island of the Holies". Charlemagne
for this reason invited many Irish scholars to his residence.")



So the well-known influence of Irish and Scottish missionares on the
continental Germanic folks brought the *'kirke'* with it (even supported by
the Mightiest of the Mighty - Charly), and this fact also explains that '*
kirke'* appears in Britain nearly at the same time as on the continent.



But at last one question is still to clarify - how did the Scottish and
Irish monks (and folks) get into contact with the Greeks? Ireland as well as
Scotland never were part of the Imperium Romanum, so perhaps it was
a tradition of pre-Roman trading contacts??!



One new question every day...



Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

Lower Saxony, Germany



PS:

Nice thread, Jonny!

(Thanks, Ron!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

OK, here are the words for "church" in the Modern Insular Celtic languages
and the most likely donor languages:

Goidhelic:
   Irish Gaelic: eaglais
   Scottish Gaelic: eaglais
   Manx: agglish

Brythonic:
   Cornish: eglos
   Welsh: eglwys
   Breton: iliz

Greek: ???????????????? (ekkl??s??a)
> Latin: ecclesia

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

==============================END===================================

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 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:30:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:30:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.093039.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in December 2009!



Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of November 2009! They
live in the following places:


*Netherlands* (Nederland):
     Zeeland:
          Rilland [1]
*Switzerland* (Schweiz, Suisse, Svizzera, Svizra):
     Geneva (Gen??ve, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra):
          Geneva (Gen??ve, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Essex:
               Manningtree [1]



Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail vs Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use < <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com>.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.*

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please.

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If you
just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as the
author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe authors the
courtesy of crediting them by name.

Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the sign-off
command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me ( <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) a message giving us the old address and the new
address. If you don't remember under which address you were first
subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the new address.



*Temporary Absence*

Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.



Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.



Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>lowlands.list at gmail.com

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:31:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:31:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.093151.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia



[Please do read this, especially if you are new on board!]



Dear Lowlanders,



Welcome to Lowlands-L in December 2009!



Welcome to those who joined us since the beginning of November 2009! They
live in the following places:


*Netherlands* (Nederland):
     Zeeland:
          Rilland [1]
*Switzerland* (Schweiz, Suisse, Svizzera, Svizra):
     Geneva (Gen??ve, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra):
          Geneva (Gen??ve, Genf, Ginevra, Genevra) [1]
*United Kingdom*:
     England:
          Essex:
               Manningtree [1]



Before the usual list business I need to draw your attention to the
following:



*SPECIAL LIST BUSINESS*



*List Mail vs Private Mail*

Folks, please make sure that you send private messages to me to my private
address (sassisch at yahoo.com), especially if they could be taken as responses
to what has been said in the forum. If you do not make this distinction it
could happen that your private message ends up posted to the List. For
administrative purposes, it's best if you use < <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com>.



*Rejected Mail*

Once in a while subscribers tell me that they receive List mail but that
their posting submissions keep being rejected. In most cases, when I
investigate this it turns out that a given subscriber has List mail
forwarded from his or her subscribed e-mail address to another e-mail
address, and, forgetting this, they try to send posting submissions from the
address at which they read the mail. The list server rejects mail from that
address because it is not subscribed. Also, some people try to unsubscribe
or change their subscription configurations from addresses that are not
subscribed. The simple solution is to address the list server only from the
subscribed e-mail address.



*Language Codes*

In the subject line of each Lowlands-L issue you find language codes in
square brackets ( [ ] ). This indicate which language or languages are used
in that issue. I now use the ISO codes where available (and make up the
rest). I used to provide the key for the abbreviations in the masthead, but
that made for overly large mastheads. Instead, the masthead now contains the
URL of the page of the key:



lowlands-l.net/codes.php



You do not need to indicate the language varieties of you posting proposals.
In the rare event of me not knowing it I will ask you.



*Projects*

Please don't forget about our activities, especially now that we are
approaching our 14th anniversary (!):



Anniversary (lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)

Gallery (lowlands-l.net/gallery/)

Travels (lowlands-l.net/travels/)

History (lowlands-l.net/history/)

Traditions (lowlands-l.net/traditions/)

Crypt (http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/) <http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/>

Beyond the Pale (lowlands-l.net/beyondthepale/)

Members' Resources (http://lowlands-l.net/resources/)

Resource guide (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/)

Shop (http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



All of them have growing numbers of visitors.



If you have anything in mind for any of those presentations but lack
confidence for some reason or other, please bear in mind that assistance is
available. Please write to my private address or to our administrative
address (see above) to propose or ask and also to send your works.



If you want to order books, CDs, DVDs, or pretty much anything else from
Amazon you might as well do it via these shops (in Canada, Germany, France,
Japan, UK and USA) which have constantly changing Lowlands-related
selections. Alternatively use the links below that to do more extensive
searches while still affording referral commissions to LL-L. (
http://lowlands-l.net/rummage/shops.php)



*REGULAR LIST BUSINESS*



*Rules*

A few of you are still making three basic mistakes when submitting postings.
So here's a quick review:



*Do not mix topics.*

Stay with the subject line (and don't add stuff to it) when you respond. It
is only when you start a new thread that you may suggest a subject line.

When you respond to someone's posting, please only quote the relevant
portion. If you allow an entire issue to dangle as a quote behind your
response I will remove it, even if your response does not make much sense
then.



Please consult the rules and guidelines: lowlands-l.net/rules.php



Another request:



Please inform me if you route LL-L issues to or via email addresses other
than those you subscribed. Right now, once again I am getting failure
reports concerning email addresses that are not subscribed. This is really
annoying, because I have no idea whose they are, so I can't do anything
about it.



*Membership*



As most of you know in the meantime, our email addresses are now visible
only to subscribers. I hope this will encourage more of you to come forward
and participate in our discussions.


We send the postings in Unicode (UTF-8) format. You need to switch your view
mode to it if you want to see all "special" characters.


You must always give us your name, given name and family name.


If you forward Lowlands-L mail to another (alias) account, please give us
the address of that account. We need to identify it so we can do something
in case we get error messages from that server.



If you wish to leave ("unsubscribe" from) Lowlands-L, please follow the
appropriate steps as described below. DO NOT mark Lowlands-L mail as SPAM.
If you take this unethical action, it may detrimentally affect the entire
list and its subscribers, as well as LINGUIST, our server hosts. Besides, we
will be able to tell that it was you that did it and we will consider
reporting you. SO DON'T!


You must credit the writers of anything you quote. "Lowlands-L wrote:"
simply won't do. Several of you are still not doing this.


Please continue already existing subject headers (rather than making up your
own for the same thing). If you do begin a new topic, please make sure
"Lowlands-L" or "LL-L" is in the subject line as well.


DO NOT SEND POSTING SUBMISSIONS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ONLY.


Many beginners, but also a few older hands, forget to provide their names
with their posting submission. Please remember that anonymous posting is not
an option, that you are obligated to give your given and family name, even
if you do not put them right next to each other.



Even some people who have been with us for a while persistently ignore the
following rules:

Keep subjects separate: Only one topic per posting! Don't mix things up,
please.

Stick to the subject title: Do not change the topic name in your responses.
Just stick with the one we have, even if you think it doesn't apply or is
silly. I will change it if I think it needs to be.


Edit quotes: If you hit the "reply" button and simply write your response
before or after an unedited, complete quoted LL-L issue, please do not
complain to me that I have removed the quoted text in the published version.
It is proper email behavior to quote only the portions that are relevant to
your response.


Give credit: Let us know who the authors of quoted text portions are. If you
just hit the "reply" button, it will automatically give "Lowlands-L" as the
author. That will not do. You must be more specific, and you owe authors the
courtesy of crediting them by name.

Sign off: If you feel like leaving the List, please do not send the sign-off
command to the posting address or to my personal address.



*Change of Address*

You do no longer need to sign off and on again if your email address
changes. It suffices if you send me ( <lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) a message giving us the old address and the new
address. If you don't remember under which address you were first
subscribed, it will suffice if you give us only the new address.



*Temporary Absence*

Before you take a trip or for some other reason need to stop LL-L mail
arriving for a given length of time, please write to us
(<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>
lowlands.list at gmail.com) to let us know the date you want mail to be stopped
and the date you want mail to be resumed. As some of our members can attest,
this has been working really well, certainly beats the old, crude method of
signing off and on again. Once in a while people find themselves
unsubscribed without notice. Some of them immediately suspect the worst:
that I have "booted them out" for some infraction or other. (I know this for
sure only about those that contact me. But it happens again and again and
involves even the nicest, best-behaved people.) Please do not jump to this
conclusion unless you have received prior reprimands and warnings (which
occurred very rarely, not at all for well over one year). If you find
yourself disconnected from Lowlands-L, the reason is most likely that the
automated server has unsubscribed your address because of repeated
"bouncing," i.e., because your mail servers keep informing the list server
that you cannot be reached or is filled above quota. Most of the time this
is due to temporary disconnection.



Sometimes the reason is that a subscriber's junk mail filter (or "spam"
filter) has not been "told" to exempt Lowlands-L mail, which is why our
mailings do not arrive in your in-boxes. So, if Lowlands-L mail stops
coming, please first check your "spam" filters and adjust them if necessary,
and only contact me about the problem if all of the above fails. Should you
indeed be disconnected, please write to me or resubmit an application. I'll
be more than happy to bring you swiftly back to the fold.



Again, dear Lowlanders, thanks for your support and cooperation and for all
those interesting contributions past and future!



Regards, Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn

Co-Founder & Chief Editor

<lowlands at lowlands-l.net>lowlands.list at gmail.com

Lowlands-L (lowlands-l.net)

?

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:44:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:44:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2009.12.01 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.094412.0800.>

 ===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 01 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Administrativia


Dear Lowlanders,

Sorry about this morning's double issue. It was due to a server stutter.

Please bear in mind that there are server problems in case this happens
again.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 17:49:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:49:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.094929.0800.>

 ===========================================
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From: Kevin & Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (05) [EN]


Tom,



Yes, ???nyuck??? as a way of indicating laughter is a case of onomatopoeia.  In
particular, it???s the usual way of writing down the way Curly of The Three
Stooges laughed: ???Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!???



There???s also the phrase ???yucking it up??? meaning ???having a good time with a
lot of laughter; telling jokes back and forth.???



Kevin Caldwell

Laurel, MD


----------


From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.29 (01) [DE-EN]


And further to this, what did the Germanic people call their temples/holy
places before they borrowed *'kyriakon' ?*  Or does this suggest that they
didn't really have dedicated places to worship gods etc?

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]


Irish Christianity was a copticesque Chritianity, and only became Roman
after Pope Adrian. Hence the disputes about Easter, etc.

There was more than one St Patrick, the one we know as St Patrick was
preceded by Palladius and another dude.

Irish contacts with Egypt go back a long long way, the semi-legendery
Milesus queen was Egyptian Scota, as was his sons wife.

Coming back toi the issue of Jews in Europe, it is a growing belief the
seafaring Phonecians were Jewish by language at least, if not by blood.

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"*

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec  1 20:21:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:21:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.122120.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.30 (06) [EN]

from Heather Rendall heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Jonny wrote: So the well-known influence of Irish and Scottish missionares
on the continental Germanic folks brought the *'kirke'* with it (even
supported by the Mightiest of the Mighty - Charly), and this fact also
explains that '* kirke'* appears in Britain nearly at the same time as on
the continent.

Two things to add: the Celtic Church was also keenly influenced by the
Desert fathers of the (?) Coptic or at least Eygptian Christian Church - so
contact via the Med / Gibraltar / Spain perhaps or France / Ireland

The concept of the single cell retreat came this way.

Secondly re my reference to the use of 'betehus' which no-one has picked up.
I have always been puzzled by the town name in Wales of Betwys y Coed  where
the Betwys = Chapel. Yet it sounds and looks as tho' it ought to be derived
from the German. Could a returning father have imported it back to Wales???

Heather

Worcester UK
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Heather,

I wonder if early Dutch-speaking immigrants had their hands in this: *
*betehuus* > **bedehuis* (*gebedshuis*)?

Remember that large numbers of medieval Dutch speakers, mostly in the
garment trade, moved to Wales and later from their to parts of England and
Scotland (hence surnames like Fleming, Walsh, Welsh etc.).

But wait! There's more!

Old Saxon actually has the word *bedeh??s* ("prayer house")!

Old Low Frankish sources are scarcer, but I consider it possible that it had
a cognate.

Now I'm starting to wonder if you are right in suspecting that the word was
introduce to Wales from a Saxon source.

In Old English I would expect a cognate like **bidda**h??s*, but there seems
to no trace of that.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 03:19:31 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:19:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.DEC.2009.191931.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I wonder if early Dutch-speaking immigrants had their hands in this: *
*betehuus* > **bedehuis* (*gebedshuis*)?

Remember that large numbers of medieval Dutch speakers, mostly in the
garment trade, moved to Wales and later from their to parts of England and
Scotland (hence surnames like Fleming, Walsh, Welsh etc.).

But wait! There's more!

Old Saxon actually has the word *bedeh????s* ("prayer house")!

Old Low Frankish sources are scarcer, but I consider it possible that it had
a cognate.

Now I'm starting to wonder if you are right in suspecting that the word was
introduce to Wales from a Saxon source.

In Old English I would expect a cognate like **bidda**h????s*, but there seems
to no trace of that.


Bitte! ;=)

Note also the name of first and foremost Anglo-Saxon scholar: The Venerable
Bede, one of the greatest (church) historians of all time probably.

His name is cognate with "bede" (Dutch for prayer), and with English "bead".
Yep, the New Orleans stuff ;=)...originally used in something more mundane
like a Roman-Catholic rosary...with which you could count your prayers.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]

 Dear Lowlanners,

looking for the origin of 'kirke' again.

Ron means:

OK, here are the words for "church" in the Modern Insular Celtic languages
and the most likely donor languages:

Greek: ???????????????? (ekkl??s??a)
> Latin: ecclesia

Yes, of course, the Celtic Christs still call it with a related term this
way (and I mentioned it in my first posting in this threat)! But these Irish
missionaries had to be diplomates, and they had to respect the germanic
people's old customs to be successful in their intentions to perform them
into Christs.

So - maybe they took up 'familiar' items denoting Germanic mythology, as we
know it from other rituals as Easter festival and Christmas.

And isn't "????????????????" ('Haus des Herrn')  a perfect translation of

*"Valaskjalf"* (also called 'Walhalla' but that's wrong!)?

de.wiki writes:
>>Valaskjalf ist in der nordischen Mythologie einer der *G??tter*pal??ste in
Asgard. Das Dach >>der *Halle* ist mit Silber gedeckt. Laut der Snorra-Edda
steht hier auch ... der Thron >>Odins.

("In nordic mythology the hall of the Germanic Gods, with a roof of silver
and the throne of Odin in its midst.")

10 cents worth??

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm
Lower Saxony, Germany

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, *makkers*. Very interesting!

Jonny:

And isn't "????????????????" ('Haus des Herrn')  a perfect translation of

 *"Valaskjalf"* (also called 'Walhalla' but that's wrong!)?

In what way is it a perfect translation?

*Skjalf*, a cognate of "shelf'" ("platform", "terrace"?), apparently
referred to a divine abode or temple. (There you are, Paul.) *Vala-* is
thought to refer to the god son V??li.

Am I missing something ... a lot?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 17:46:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:46:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.094621.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (05) [EN]

"Bedehuis" I have never seen in Dutch, although it is a valid compound I
think as we have "bedevaart" with bede- as first element, meaning
pilgrimage.

Similar to this though, modern Dutch has "gebedshuis" which can be a place
of worship of any undecided religion, but I'm not sure if this is an old
word or a rather modern one (i.e. if it predates the borrowing of "Kerk",
but I think it probably doesnt)

Diederik

----------

From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (04) [EN]

Some thoughts towards the 'kirk' discussion:

On: ''Greek: ???????????????? (ekkl??s??a) > Latin: ecclesia''   and  '' ??????????????
(*kuriak?? * "of the Lord")''

It may be that originally ?????????????? was used for a building (- house of
the Lord ... > kirk/ church), and ???????????????? more for the idea of the
church as a body of people (in Christ) - it means 'those who have been
called out' or suchlike in Greek. There were plenty of Germanic contacts
with the Roman Empire both before and after Constantine's conversion and
the official adoption of Christianity (in the 300s), so it could be
expected that a name for the buildings seen by Germanic mercenaries and
others might then spread into Germanic speech well beyond the Roman
frontiers.

(By the way, ???????????????? at least has a very long history of use, being
found in the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament translation made for
Greek-speaking jews before Christ's birth, and very often quoted in the
NT. This is the official OT of Eastern Orthodox Church. Terminology,
quotes and also readings make it more compatible with the NT than the
later Masoretic Hebrew text upon which most western OT translations are
based. Septuagint is often based on older Hebrew variants, some of which
were found in Dead Sea scrolls.)

Celtic Church and Eastern Christianity links:
Recall a reference somewhere to an Egyptian Saint's life from 500s/
600s, where there's an incidental mention of a trading ship sailing from
Alexandria to Britain. Also ref. in Irish annals to visiting Firr Gorm
('blue men' = black Africans), some of whom (I seem to recall) were
Ethiopian monks (also pictures of modern Ethiopian crosses, which often
have knotwork very like that found in Celtic countries). Eastern-based
Emperor Justinian may have funded trade with former areas of the Western
empire, and a fair bit of E. Mediterranean pottery has been found in W
British elite sites from the 500s to back this up.

The early Christian Church was largely Aramaic and Greek-speaking.
Greek was already the official tongue for the East of the Roman Empire,
and also became a key medium for Christian expression further afield.
Greek was quite widely spoken even in Rome, and it was only with time
that use of Latin came to predominate in the Western Church.
The survival of 'Eastern' (but maybe often better described as 'older')
Christian features in the Celtic areas was partly due to reduced
contacts with other churches after the end of the Western Empire. A
range of factors (including those connected to the rise of an ever-more
powerful and controlling Papacy, and innovations such as Augustine's
doctrine of Original Sin) helped hide the eastern origins of
Christianity in the West.
(On this original sin idea, I understand that when the British
scholar-monk Pelagius took Augustine of Hippo on about this in the East
in about 410 or so, he was not found to be heretical there, but
Augustine later got him condemned locally in the West, where his
mistaken, extreme take on human depravity has been a problem ever since.
Some of Pelagius' followers took things too far the other way. The East
had and often still has a more positive emphasis than Augustine. It is
fascinating to try to get behind our Western-oriented conditioning of
thought in connection with Christianity. Its easy to forget that for
Christian history, the East long played a much more significant role
than the West.)

On the Welsh name:  Betws y Coed (Betws is said 'bet-ooss', with short
'oo') - recall reading that its from Middle English 'Bedehus' = prayer
house/ chapel (so maybe not an older borrowing into Welsh). I think the
same word is in Old English too.

(Phonecian - this is a Semitic tongue very like Hebrew. Phonecian
script is the basis of Old Hebrew, Greek, Latin and thus our own
alphabets.)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 17:47:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:47:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.02 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.094754.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Tradition  (Fortsetzung mit ...)

*P??pernoet un annern s??uten Kram*
(und wie gut es mundet...)

So eine richtige P??perkauken-Gegend war Mecklenburg wohl nicht, aber in der
Vorweihnachtszeit begann auch hier die Festb??ckerei (so auch noch
heutzutage).

*Brun' P??pernoet*
Dunntaumalen w??rr de Deig (der Teig) all in de ierst Adventwoch' orrig sch??n
r??hrt un jeden Abend d??chdig kn??t (geknetet), un denn w??rr de Schoetel
taudeckt un in de Abeneck (Ofenecke) afstellt un in de letzt' Week v??r
Wihnachten backt.
De witt' P??pernoet w??rr dunnmals mit baschen P??per (schwarzer Pfeffer unreif
geerntet) anr??hrt.
So gab es verschiedene Redensarten, die sich auf H??rte, Form und Farbe,
Geschmack und Zeit der Pfeffernu?? bezogen.
Sogar in einem Abz??hlreim der Kinder hei??t es
"Eene meene mu, Fritzen sin Fru,
Fritzen sin P??pernoet, dat b??st du".
Bei K??lte ..."dat alls to P??pernoet friert", oder bei Hitze ... "gah rut ut
de S??nn, du brad'st noch to P??pernoet".
So mancher konnte sich auch zu einer (braunen) Pfeffernu?? ??rgern.
Zu einem Leckerzahn (Lickert??hn) sagte man auch "dat m??ggst woll, P??pernoet
in'n Sirup stippen" (die Pfeffernu?? war bereits mit Sirup gebacken).
Sogar in der Liebe hatte die Pfeffernu?? eine wichtige Bedeutung. W??hrend
heute eine Pfeffernu?? evtl. zwei sich Liebende schnell verbinden k??nnte
(d.h. zur gleichen Zeit bei??t das sich gegen??ber sitzende/stehende Paar in
die Pfeffernu?? und kommt sich n??her zum Ku??), lehnte damals ein junges
M??dchen eine Verlobung am Weihnachtstage ab ... "ick will kein
P??pernoetsbrut (Pfeffernu??braut) sin".

*Kl??ben, *m. l??nglicher Kuchen in Brotform, auf der Oberseite mit L??ngsri??
in der Mitte, in Hagenow vielfach gebrauchte Bezeichnung aus dem
Hamburgischen, statt der heimischen  *Stoll  un Stuten *(Zeitschrift des
Vereins f??r Volkskunde, Berlin 1929-1940).
Stuten war eigentlich ein Geb??ck aus Weizenmehl anger??hrt mit Milch, Zucker
und Rosinen und sah aus wie eine gro??e Semmel (Br??tchen). Den s????en Stuten
a?? man  zur ersten Mahlzeit an Sonn- und Feiertagen.
"Luten (Ludwig) backt Stuten in fif Minuten, in fif Sekunn' is alls
verswunn' ".
Jene Stollenb??cker prahlten: "Min Rosinen kann jedwerein seihn", dor harr he
de Rosinen  *up *  de Stuten backt.

*Kinnjes'poppen, Kannjes' *(Kind Jesu),
Das waren lustige Gestalten wie M??nner, Frauen, Pferde, Hasen (Haas'poppen,
braune Farbe wie der Hase), Hirsche und Schweine, die aus einer Mischung von
Lebkuchen und Semmelteig gebacken wurden. Mancherorts wurden diese
gebackenen Figuren auch an den Weihnachtsbaum geh??ngt. Waren diese
Teiggesch??pfe mit Safran (Gew??rz) bestrichen, dann fanden sie besonderen
Anklang (NDZ. 24.12.1983).
In einigen mecklenburgischen Gegenden wurden diese  Kinnjes'poppen vor
Weihnachten von den Semmelfrauen "Stutenollsch" aus der Stadt in die D??rfer
gebracht, und die Kinder fanden sie dann am Weihnachtsmorgen in den abends
auf das Fensterbrett gelegten Pudelm??tzen.

Noch heute backen die Frauen und B??cker gern diese Leckereien.

"Lickert??hn, mag'st ok gr??un Seep?" ("Leckerzahn, magst auch gr??ne Seife?")

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert, sowie eigene Sammlung, Vortr??ge f??r URANIA
(mit Kostproben der Weihnachgtsb??ckerei).

??brigens, am 12. Dezember nehme ich teil:

*Welcome to our English Christmas Party*

Die englischen Leckereien von s???? bis herzhaft werden garniert mit
Geschichten und Anekdoten zur ihrer Entstehung. Weshalb die Engl??nder den 2.
Weihnachtstag "Boxing Day" nennen. Anschlie??end sehen wir den Film "A
Christmas Carol" nat??rlich auf Englisch.
(Ich bin noch nicht ganz der engl. Sprache m??chtig... aber wir haben schon
den engl. Text  "A Christmas Carol" im Englisch-Unterricht gelesen und
??bersetzt ...  und gepaukt /gelernt.)

Viel Freude bei der Weihnachtsb??ckerei und ich freue mich auf den
12. Dezember.

Lickert??hn Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec  2 18:27:24 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:27:24 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2009.12.02 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.102724.0800.>

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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: German Attitudes towards regional dialects (thus incl. minority and
regional languages) and literature recommandation

Leve Fruennen,

Ik heff jues wat lest in de duetsche Avis "Die Zeit' un wenn ik dat les denn
weet ik dat liggers nu friisk, dansk, serb????ina un neddersassisch vun de
Bundesregeerung as "spraaken" anerkannt suend sik doch garnix veraennert
haett in Duetschland. De (hoch)-duetsche nationalismus und chauvinimus is no
juemmers so as foer 50 jaar. De link to duessen artikel is de folgende:

http://www.zeit.de/campus/2010/01/arbeiten-dwdd

Ji moet ju mol de kommetare vun de leser doerlesen, dat is nix anners as
diskrimation vun linguistike minderheeten, incl. schwizerduetsch-sprekers. De
luet begrip ni dat ok eer egen oellern un groessoellern mol een "dialekt"
snack hebb un met duesse kommetare seggen egentli nix anners as "min eegen
groessoellern suend dumm un primitv wes denn se kunnen ni richti
hochduetsch". De luet begrip ok ni dat alens relativ is, magh vlich foer een
duetschnationalen "reines hochdeutsch" prestigieus ween, so is precies
duesse hochduetsche utspraak un akzent alens annere as prestigieus wenn
duesse luet denn engelsch or nederlandsch snack. "Die Zeit"s een
links-liberale Avis awer dat schient dat de links-liberalitaet opeenmol
voerbi is wenn dat oem nationale linguistike minderheeten in Duetschland
geit....man kann juemmers good klagen oever minderheten-diskrimination wenn
dat wiet wigh vun to hus is awer wenn dat denn int egen hus is, daar hoellt
dat denn op, denn suend de minderheten op eenmol "primitiv" "egoistisch"
oder "chauvinisten". Daardoer dat ik mi suelens nuems met de hochduetschen
assimiliseert hebb un mi dat egal waer wat se vun min hochduetsch dinken,
daardoer heff ik annere spraken veel beter leren kunn. Awer vertell dat mol
een....so steit dat ni int book un so leert man dat ni op de school. Un
soelvens mol nadinken, dat laat man lever de peer daan, de hebb een
groettern kopp....

Ik heef awer ok no wat anners to vermelden denn ik woell ju een heelsch good
book rekommandern, dat heet "Besoek bi ole Fruenn" vun W.L. Andersen ut
Kating in Eiderstedt (Sleswig-Holsten), dat is een beschrievung oever den
leefdaagh in Eiderstedt voer 100 jaar un is to bestellen bi den
W.L.Andresen-Verlag in Husum. Dat book is in Eiderstedher neddersassisch
schreven un is wul een vun de besten boeker de ik lest hebb.

Leeve Groeten vun
Helge

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Daar kriggst ???n groten Dank f??r, leve Helge. Un dat is mi ???n H??gen, dat wi
maal wedder wat vun di to h????rn kriegt in dien fein ???Noordsch??? mit
j????tsch/d????nsch Inwarken.



Dat Dinken, wat du vun schrieven d????st, dat k??mmt na mien Menen noch j??mmers
vun dat ole europ????sche Dinken vun w??gen ???one nation = one ethnicity = one
language??? un daar w??gen ???Diversity weakens the modern state???. D??t Dinken,
dat se jahrteihntenlang in us rindrummt harrn, dat geiht nich so gau weg.
Dat wardt noch tominnst indirektemang vun ??llern un Schoolmeesters an Kinner
wiederg??ven, dat se as ???moderne B??rgers??? good to Schick kaamt, good ank??ken
wardt, ???n nejen Typus Minsch, de good anschr??ven is un allerw??gens good an???n
Dr??cker k??mmt. Dat bed????dt denn ook, dat de Minschen, de noch an j??m ??hr ???
olen??? Dialekten un Spraken hangt, keen modernen B??rgers s??nd, na vergahne
Tieden toh????rt, eendoonts of se ook de ???Hoog???-Spraak good k??nt. Alleen dat
Anhangen an ???ole??? ???binnenlandsch-fr??mde??? Spraak un Kultuur is Grund noog vun
j??m to dinken, se lehnt den nejen Staat un dat ???neje B??rgerdoom??? af. In
mennig een Fall wardt dat as polietsch, sezessionistisch Dwarsdrieveree
ank??ken.



D??sse Saak wardt nich v????l ??ver snackt. Man se sitt liekers deep binnen in
de Denkwies??? vun???n ???modernen??? B??rger un de, de dat warden wullt. Un dat hett
???n basig Inwarken in de Sprakenpolitik.



Gr??tens,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 03:37:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:37:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]
Message-ID: <WED.2.DEC.2009.193713.0800.>

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From: Utz H.Woltmann <uwoltmann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]

Diederik schreef:

"Bedehuis" I have never seen in Dutch, although it is a valid compound I
think as we have "bedevaart" with bede- as first element, meaning
pilgrimage.

Beste Diederik,

in de bijbel wordt het huis van God bedehuis genoemd, bijv. Jesaja 56:6,7

"Die zal Ik ook brengen tot Mijn heiligen berg,20) en Ik zal hen verheugen
in Mijn bedehuis;21) hun brandoffers22) en hun slachtoffers zullen aangenaam
wezen op Mijn altaar;23) want Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden24)
voor alle volken.25)"
...
"21)    in Mijn bedehuis;
    Hebreeuws, in het huis mijns gebeds; dat is, in den tempel, die
geordineerd is tot een huis, waarin men mij aanbidt, en voorts de kerk van
God in het algemeen."
...
"24)    genoemd worden
    En het behoorde ook zodanig inderdaad te zijn."

http://www.statenvertaling.info/js56.htm

"BIJBEL DAT IS DE GANSE HEILIGE SCHRIFT BEVATTENDE AL DE KANONIEKE BOEKEN
VAN HET OUDE EN NIEUWE TESTAMENT
DOOR LAST VAN DE HOOG-MOGENDE HEREN STATEN-GENERAAL DER VERENIGDE
NEDERLANDEN EN VOLGENS HET BESLUIT VAN DE SYNODE NATIONAAL GEHOUDEN TE
DORDRECHT IN DE JAREN 1618 EN 1619 UIT DE OORSPRONKELIJKE TALEN IN ONZE
NEDERLANDSE TAAL GETROUWELIJK OVERGEZET."
http://www.statenvertaling.info/

Groetjes uit Olland
Utz H. Woltmann

----------

From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (01) [EN]

Diederik,

I'm not sure what the borrowing situation is (or which way it might've
been), but Norwegian (and other Scandinavians?) has "bedehus" meaning I
think the same thing.

Regards,
Lucas Annear
Madison, Wisconsin, USA

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Lucas,

I'm pretty sure that Norwegian *bedehus* goes back to Middle Saxon
*bedeh??s*via massive Saxon influx during the era of the Saxon-speaking
Hanseatic
Trading League. Actually, it could even go back to Old Saxon
*bedeh??s*("praying house"), since Christianization of Scandinavia,
though regulated
by the Franks, emanated from what is now Northern Germany. Hamburg was
primarily established as a trading post and missionary headquarters for
Scandinavia and to a lesser degree to the Polabian Slavs (who where
geographically the closest to Hamburg at the time). In turn, "Vikings" and
Slavs frequently attacked and sacked Hamburg. The beginning of these
missions preceded the establishment of the Hanseatic Trading League.

Norwegian may have received *bedehus* directly from Saxon or via Danish,
which has *bedehus* as well. (It seems to mean 'chapel' rather than actually
'church'.)

If Old Norse had a cognate word I would expect **b??n(i)h??s*. In Icelandic I
would expect **b??nh??s* or **bi??jah??s*, in Faroese **b??nh??s* or **bi??jah??s*.
I can't verify the existence of any of them. Swedish, however, does have
expected *b??nhus*, which may or may not be a Saxon calque (i.e. loan
translation). Finnish has *rukoushuone *("prayer room") which may or may not
be a Swedish or Saxon calque.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 16:12:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:12:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (01) [EN-NL]
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From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]

The old Dutch church in Kingston NY (once a Dutch-speaking city) in the
Hudson Valley, bears an older stone in the stone wall beside the main door
that reads just so:  *Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden voor alle
volken.  *The inscription was moved into its present position in the 18th
century from the original church, as I understand it.

RK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Robert!

It's great to hear from you again. It had been a while.

It is quite interesting that you could pinpoint an actual occurrence of
expected Early Modern Dutch *bedehuis*, and that in North America!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: For what it's worth, I love your poetry.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 20:54:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:54:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.3.DEC.2009.125436.0800.>

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.01 (03) [EN]

 Dear Tomas

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

I always enjoy reading you. I hope my pennyworth is not too late on this
rather braided string.

You wrote:
Coming back toi the issue of Jews in Europe, it is a growing belief the
seafaring Phonecians were Jewish by language at least, if not by blood.

A source I cannot cite as written, but if I may refer to Ze'ev Tekhes of
Kibbutz Mishmar HaNegev, a scholar of Jewish demography:

Ze'ev pointed out that after the destruction of Carthage, which until then
dominated the carrying-trade throughout the Western Med. & adjacent Atlantic
seaboards, the only people that could pick up the pieces were Jews. As you
say, they spoke a language extremely close to liturgical Hebrew. In the
Eastern Med & even in their own cities the current language had been Aramaic
for some time, but the citizens of Qriat Khadash, as the Romans called it,
'Carthago' - (New City) still spoke it even, he wrote, into St. Augustine's
time (The common folk in the hinterland still called themselves Ca'anani
(Caananite).

There are evocative traces & memories of Phoenecian influence, so I read,
around the tin & silver trade with Cornwall. Is there not a local deity
Belial for example? If so, that word comes out in both Punic & Hebrew as 'My
Lord God' or 'My Lord Is God', depending on context. Tin was a lesser but
vital component of bronze, & in the Eastern Med. at least, was largely in
the hands of Alexandrian Jewish traders.

Then there was a scandal about (does anything change?) a notable fraction of
the Temple treasury (The Temple in Jerusalem) being *squirreled away* in
Spain... - as the Romans called it - Hispania - as the Carthaginians called
it, 'Ii HaShafanim' - (Cony Island). I hear some people are still looking
for it. First stop is somewhere around Toledo, 'Qriat Toldot' - (The City of
Generations)

Anyhow, the whole of the British Isles could by-pass any contacts at all
with Continental Europe or the North-shore of the Med. They had access
through Punic traders & their successors the Jews to the African shore & its
hinterlands right back to Egypt, & that continued even after the Jewish
Wars, through the mediation of the African Church right up until the Vandal
invasion of North Africa.

There is no evidence, & perhaps we have no business speculating, but it is
by no means unlikely for Jesus to have travelled to the British Isles. In
any event, in Alexandria he is almost certain, in his youth, to have met
many of his own nation that had.

In any event, there is no need for a Teutonic or Roman medium of
transmission to the Emerald Isle of the word 'Church', 'Kirk' or 'Kerk', but
it was surely an established term in all Christianity before the
Augustine-Pelagian schism.

As for 'Bedehuis', for what it's worth my J. R. R. Tolkien cites the very
word, the Welsh 'Bittws' as one of the few Anglo-Saxon borrowings into
Welsh.

Oh, pardon my lurking! Only some people - so many - have so much more to say
& say it so much better.

Yrs,
Mark

P.S. My Ruth reckons some of us goyim know too much about Judaism for our
own good.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  3 23:22:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:22:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.3.DEC.2009.152254.0800.>

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From: Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (02) [EN]

Mark, Facinating analysis of the Carthagh connection. It was believed as
factual history that Jesus and Joseph had come to Britian up to the 1900's
(and still held to this day by those of the extrme right) and those of that
persuasion believe the Scythians, from which we get the Indo-Europeans were
one of the lost twelve tribes, insinuating we all are decendent of the
ancient Jews.

Todays Palestinians hold the view they are descendant from Islamicised Jews,
as opposed to Arab settlers after the Islamisication of the area.

Unfortuantly those two positions are polluted too much by the extreme
nationalism to give much credence to a this stage, but perhaps in time
whatever grain of truth there is in it can be extracted and be sanititsed of
the extemeist thinking it be's used to popularise.

Conventional thinking using research of DNA today gives us a different
thinking, that those who may speak a language may not be of the stock of the
origion of the language.

Current hypothesis states the Southern Englsih of Kent to Cornwall by blood
are strongly Celtic, while the Irish are genetically strongly Basque/pre
Celtic, yet respectivly they have a Germanic language base and a Celtic
langauge base.

There was an "Iron" language in Ireland (meaning difficult) in pre Gaelic
times, spoken by the populace, but it seems sometime around 100AD there was
a shift to standard Gaelic in its old Irish format. However it is thought
that the Iron language suvuvued in areas up to 700-800 AD in a similar state
to Irish as a spoken language today.

This is often used as justification for the British presence in Ireland, as
history repeats itslef, and the Gaels got their positio in Ireland using the
same methods as the British used generations before.

Hoerver, as an Irishman I beg to differ!

Of late I have obtained a copy of "The Story of Ireland" by A.M. Sullivan,
and while much of the contents today are debunked as pseudohistory, at the
time of its writing it was recieved as being factual enough, the truh being
in all probability being somewhere in the middle of the two positions.

It outlines in the early chapters the arrival of the Gaels in different
waves from current day Galacia, a path not believed in current teaching, who
say the Celts came to Ireland from Gaul. However the genetics point to the
origional position, unless the dominant Gaels came from Gaul with the
subject peoples came from Spain.

The bible states that after the tower of Babel God confused the languages so
man could never try to claim to be as great as God, that being a sin of
gross pride, and it looks like He in His wisdom done a great job!

lol

This topic indeed is meandering, and maybe is none the worse for that!

It would be interesting to note the position of germanic legends of their
origions...

Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  4 19:36:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 11:36:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.04 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.4.DEC.2009.113643.0800.>

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.03 (01) [EN-NL]

Dag laaglanders,
The only words in Flemish (in stead of church 'kerke') would be: godshuus /
godeshuus / temple.

Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

Op 3-dec-09, om 17:12 heeft Lowlands-L List het volgende geschreven:

From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.02 (03) [EN-NL]

The old Dutch church in Kingston NY (once a Dutch-speaking city) in the
Hudson Valley, bears an older stone in the stone wall beside the main door
that reads just so:  *Mijn huis zal een bedehuis genoemd worden voor alle
volken.  *The inscription was moved into its present position in the 18th
century from the original church, as I understand it.

RK

----------

 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Robert!

It's great to hear from you again. It had been a while.

It is quite interesting that you could pinpoint an actual occurrence of
expected Early Modern Dutch *bedehuis*, and that in North America!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: For what it's worth, I love your poetry.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec  6 18:55:18 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 10:55:18 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.12.06 (01) [EN-NDL]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.DEC.2009.105518.0800.>

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From: fredvanbrederode at home.nl
Subject: Culture and politics

In November NRC-Handelsblad columnist J.L. Heldring posted an article on the
??? European presidential elections???, which seemed like a Holland-Belgium
match.

Heldring points out the cultural differences between the two countries. I
guess a discussion on these cultural differences are of interest to the
list.

I shall introduce the subject first.

At the end of November the present Belgian prime minister, Herman van
Rompuy, was elected president of the European Council. There were more
candidates for this high office, among them no one less than Tony Blair as
well as the Dutch prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende. Balkenende chose for
a candid strategy. His candidacy was never official. During the past few
weeks Dutch newspapers revealed his, heavily by diplomacy supported,
strategy. The conclusion is that Dutch diplomacy, once again, was beaten by
the Belgians.

Controversies between The Netherlands and Belgium are legendary. Where Dutch
and Flemish can perfectly communicate, watch, to some extend, the same
TV-programs, they never seem to cooperate.
Ever since the formation of the Dutch republic at the end of the
16thcentury, political unity between the regions disappeared. The
reunion after
the Napoleonic wars was not to last for long.
This is not an easy subject, many books were written about it. I do not have
the intention nor do I have the illusion to be able to add anything to this
discussion. I just state the fact that, though speaking the same language
(i.e in Flanders), cultures differ.

Back to the ???presidential elections???: Balkenende for a long time seemed to
have the odds at his side. Merkel and Sarkozy supported him (according to
Dutch press). Van Rompuy nevertheless got the job. It is probably a too easy
explanation that Van Rompuy???s fluency in French and German did the job,
though this might be a more than nice to have quality in Sarkozy???s eyes.

Belgium (and Flanders in particular) and The Netherlands are no enemies. It
is just so that several controversies exist and are added to them on a
regular basis. Deep water policy (through Dutch waters) to the Antwerp
harbour are obstructed, so is the railway connection from Antwerp to Germany
(IJzeren Rijn), the one extra seat in European parliament for The
Netherlands offended the Belgians. On the other hand  the Flemish slow down
the construction of high speed rail to The Netherlands.
The relationship is full of contradictions and paradoxes. Many Flemish e.g.
hold the opinion that the formation of the Belgian nation in 1830 was a
regrettable Francophone action.

Historian Pieter Geyl (who also was a professor of Dutch history at London
University) in the first half of the 20th century advocated the ???groot
Nederlandse gedachte???. In his ???History of The Netherlands??? Geyl considered
the area of the ancient Netherlands as one nation. This view is still
advocated by many Dutch and Flemish. Geyl on the other hand had no political
goals, also Geyl was very much aware of cultural differences between the two
regions. The Belga-Dutch controversy or paradox and the name Prof. Geyl are
very much connected.

NRC-Handelsblad columnist Heldring goes back to Geyl???s ideas for explaining
cultural differences between Dutch and Belgians. He also introduces a new
view on the cultural differences. This time the paradox is explained by
differences in the regions geographies.

Geographic determinism is in fact a very old idea in Von Humboldt???s
traditions. Modern geography left the idea and converted to a systematic and
mathematical approach. Still, even modern geography finds natural
environment of influence. Culture and  standard of technology determine to
which extend. The Belgium Dutch division dates back a long time, so why not
give way to the thought of geographic determinism for clarifying history?

About Heldring:
Heldring wrote his article on Geyl and the Belgian-Dutch relationship on the
eve of the election for ???European president???.
Heldring is in his nineties already and still publishing. His career
included positions as chief editor of Handelsblad as well as positions in
the Dutch foreign service and the Clingendael Institute. A his eightieth
birthday Heldring was rewarded an honorary doctorate for his columns.
More about Heldring: http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Columns/Heldring/portret.html

The LL list members may appreciate reading the column on the subject I
introduced.

Regards,

Fred van Brederode
Goirle, Nederland

*NRC Handelsblad, donderdag 19 november 2009 door J.L.
Heldring<http://weblogs.nrc.nl/heldring/author/jlheldring/>
***

Veertien dagen geleden sloot ik mijn column af met de vraag: ???Geyl *
redivivus?*??? Achteraf besef ik dat die vraag voor veel lezers nogal
cryptisch moet zijn geweest. Vandaar een nadere verklaring.

In de eerste plaats: wie was Geyl? Pieter Geyl (1887-1966) was een ??? ook
internationaal ??? bekende historicus, die, nadat hij ruim twintig jaar
correspondent van de *NRC* en docent aan de universiteit in Londen was
geweest, van 1936 tot 1959 hoogleraar in Utrecht was.

In zijn tijd en in zijn ambacht gold hij in zekere zin als revolutionair. Zo
betoogde hij dat de scheiding die zich in de zestiende eeuw had voltrokken
tussen de Zuidelijke en de Noordelijke Nederlanden niet, zoals de
rechtzinnige leer (zowel in Belgi?? en Nederland) luidde, toe te schrijven
was aan een al lang bestaand diepgaand verschil tussen Noord en Zuid, maar
aan geografische factoren.

Kort gezegd: de grote rivieren die Noord-Nederland doorkruisen, hadden het
de Spanjaarden onmogelijk gemaakt de opstand boven die rivieren te
onderdrukken. Zuid-Nederland kon heroverd worden, maar Noord-Nederland kon
zich achter die rivieren tot een zelfstandige en protestantse staat, zelfs
grote mogendheid, ontwikkelen. De scheiding tussen Noord en Zuid was dus aan
een geografisch toeval toe te schrijven.

Met deze theorie bracht Geyl op z???n minst nieuw leven in de brouwerij der
historici. Dat zij thans niet meer in haar volle omvang wordt aangehangen,
zou Geyl niet verdroten hebben. Van hem is immers ook de uitspraak dat de
geschiedenis een debat zonder einde is. Met zijn aandacht voor de
geografische factoren in de geschiedenis leverde hij in elk geval een
originele bijdrage aan dat debat.

Nu onlangs prof. W. Blockmans in een bijdrage aan de bundel *Het geheugen
van de Lage Landen* (uitg. Ons Erfdeel) stelde dat een goed begrip van de
Nederlandse cultuur onmogelijk is als er geen rekening wordt gehouden met
geografische factoren, stelde ik de vraag: Geyl *redivivus*? Anders gezegd:
is Geyl uit zijn graf herrezen?

De stelling van prof. Blockmans, een Antwerpenaar die in Leiden middeleeuwse
geschiedenis doceert, is dat in het ontstaan van de culturele verschillen
die tussen Noord en Zuid bestaan ???de hertogen van Bourgondi?? noch het
calvinisme een doorslaggevende rol hebben gespeeld. Wat men dagelijks eet en
drinkt hangt af van de beschikbaarheid van voedingsmiddelen in een bepaald
milieu???. Exit dus de theorie van het ???bourgondische??? Vlaanderen en het
???calvinistische??? Nederland.

Wanneer het gaat om cultuurverschillen tussen volken, i.c. Noord- en
Zuid-Nederland, gaat het volgens Blockmans ook ???om verschillen in
dagindeling, voedingsgewoonten, waardering van de rol van verfijnde voeding
en drank in het sociale verkeer, omgangsvormen, onderhandelingstactieken en
uiteindelijk waarden in het algemeen???. Maaltijden en drinkgelagen dienen
immers ???in de meeste culturen als markeringen en bevestigingen van
belangrijke stappen in het leven???. En hier zijn de verschillen tussen Noord
en Zuid groot.

Dat de (Noord-) Nederlanders over ???t algemeen soberder zijn dan de
Vlamingen, ligt niet aan hun zogenaamde calvinisme, dat overigens, na de val
van Antwerpen, grotendeels door uitgeweken Vlamingen naar Nederland werd
ge??mporteerd, althans gestimuleerd, maar aan ??? in de meest letterlijke zin
des woords ??? lager-bij-de-grondse factoren.

Onder die factoren noemt Blockmans Nederlands geografische gesteldheid: de
???ongeschiktheid van de bodem voor het verbouwen van broodgranen??? en ???het
schaarse milieu, dat weinig luxegoederen voortbracht en voortdurend nieuwe
investeringen vereiste om de voeten droog te houden???.

Zo werden de Nederlanders eerder haring- dan vleeseters en dronken zij
eerder bier dan wijn. Bier kon uit lichtere graansoorten gebrouwen worden,
vooral gerst, die op de karige poldergronden gemakkelijker verbouwd konden
worden dan de broodgranen en rogge. Dat bier werd niet alleen gedronken,
maar ook uitgevoerd ??? tot op de dag van vandaag.

En wat de haring betreft, die vormde de grondslag voor de zeevaart, want die
moest langs de Atlantische kusten, tot aan Denemarken en Portugal toe,
gehaald worden; later in de Schotse zee en in de IJslandse wateren. Voor het
kaken van de haring was zout nodig, en dat werd eveneens overzee gewonnen.
Nederlands lange kustlijn en zijn ligging aan de monding van enkele grote
rivieren vormden de basis voor zijn expansie overzee, terwijl zijn karige
bodem dwong tot zorgvuldige calculatie van kosten en baten en zo de
Nederlanders de naam bezorgde zuinig te zijn.

Hier kwam geen romantiek bij kijken, evenmin als calvinisme of
gidslandgedachte. ???Een Nederlands volk ontstond pas ruwweg vanaf de
zestiende eeuw. Het is een romantisch idee dat het Nederlandse volk er
altijd is geweest???, zegt Marco Mostert, medi??vist aan de Universiteit
Utrecht, in het laatste nummer van *Historisch Nieuwsblad*.

Maar bij het ontstaan van dat volk en zijn cultuur ??? of, als u wilt, zijn
identiteit ??? zijn geografische factoren beslissend geweest ??? niet zozeer
Geyls strategisch-geografsche factoren als wel de geografische ligging en
gesteldheid van het land. En die verschillen van die van Vlaanderen, dat
trouwens, terwijl Nederland zijn ???gouden eeuw??? beleefde, door de blokkade
van de Schelde gebonden bleef aan het continent.

Zouden zijn Europese collega???s vannacht Van Rompuy kiezen tot vaste
voorzitter van de Europese Raad, dan zou dat gezien kunnen worden als
Vlaanderens zoete wraak op Nederland, welks onoffici??le kandidaat Balkenende
was.
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Fred!

It's great to hear from you again. Thank you very much for this interesting,
thought-provoking and very relevant piece. I appreciate it very much.

I hope you don't mind that I have categorized the thread as "History". It
seems that this is really what we are talking about here.

Groeten,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  7 01:01:31 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:01:31 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.06 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.6.DEC.2009.170131.0800.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.11.17 (03) [EN]

Re achter, after

In East Brabant the word achternoen "afternoon" is still used these days,
though the r is left out and in the mind of the speakers the word is
preceded by an n. Thus: /nachtenoen/, as it is usually preceded by the
definite article 'den'.
There is also the expression "na de noen", pron. no?? de noen.

Kind regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 01:04:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:04:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.170448.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hello, you silent lot!

Here's a seasonal treat for you.

Tonight being the beginning of Hanukkah, I'm invited to *latkes* parties
tonight and tomorrow night. It's a usually delicious and greasy affair that
involves singing and "carrying-on."

This reminds me to ask if the equivalent, namely any kind of potato
pancakes, are traditional in any Lowlands culture, especially in the festive
season of the Northern Hemisphere winter.

*Latkes* (Yiddish: ??????????????, Hebrew: ?????????? *levivah*, plural ???????????? *levivoth
*) are traditionally eaten as a part of celebrating the eight-day Jewish
feast of Hanukkah (????????????????). They are usually accompanied by apple sauce
and sour cream.

My family in Northern Germany also had potato pancakes (Low Saxon *
Kart??ffelpuffer*, *Kart??ffelpannkoken*, Northern German *Kartoffelpuffer*, *
Kartoffelpfannkuchen*) as a favorite winter dish, often served on New Year's
Eve. They were made very much like *latkes*, but usually accompanied only by
applesauce (to cut the grease). I'm not sure if this is because my family's
culture owes much to Central and East European cultures or if other North
German families featured the dish as prominently. And what about our
neighbors to the west? And Britain?

Here in the United States it tends to be associated mostly with Jewish
tradition in general culture.

Happy Hanukkah and Advent!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 06:35:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:35:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.223555.0800.>

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

On 11/12/2009, at 11:04 AM, R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

Tonight being the beginning of Hanukkah, I'm invited to *latkes* parties
tonight and tomorrow night. It's a usually delicious and greasy affair that
involves singing and "carrying-on."

This reminds me to ask if the equivalent, namely any kind of potato
pancakes, are traditional in any Lowlands culture, especially in the festive
season of the Northern Hemisphere winter.


The Irish of course have Boxty pancakes
e.g.

BOXTY PANCAKES
Peel wash and grate some potatoes, drain and measure.
For each cup of grated potato add 1 tspn salt, 1/2 cup flour, and enough
milk to make a fairly stiff batter.
Leave to stand for an hour then fry like pancakes, preferably in bacon fat.
The American Hash Brown and Polish Placki Kartoflane are made in a similar
manner. The former probably coming from Irish sources.
 Contrast with Latke.

According to the compendious BIG Oven application for iPHONE & TOUCH a
typical Latke recipe is
Potatoes  6 Large
Medium Onion grated
2 Eggs
1 1/2 tspns Salt
1/4 tspn pepper
1/2 cup flour.
Grate potatoes and remove excess liquid
Mix in rest of ingredients
Fry spoonsful until golden brown. Drain and serve hot.

The Swiss serve Roesti made from grated potatoes pressed well down while
frying in a skillet.

The Scots don't exactly have potato pancakes but they do have tattie scones.
These are rather thin triangular scones with potatoes mixed in and are
usually fried and served with a greasy breakfast of eggs, bacon, sausage
etc.
They are normally purchased from bakeries but here's a recipe...
Cook 1 lb (450 gm0 of floury potatoes in boiling salted water for about 20
minutes until tender. Drain well and mash.
Add 2 level tspns salt and 25-50 gms (1-2 oz) butter stir well in then stir
enough flour to give a stiff dough, about100 gm (4 oz).
Knead well, roll out, prick well with a fork,and cut into triangles. Those
sold in bakeries are oven baked at home they should be
fried in minimal oil 3-4 minutes a side until golden brown.
Serve with fry ups or split, butter, and eat while hot.
I recall in the 1940's a popular farewell phrase in Edinburgh was "Ta Ta"
women corrupted this to "Tatty Scone".

Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks a lot, Tom.

I often wonder what would have become of Northern Europe had the potato not
been introduced from the Americas.

Sorry, folks. When I wrote I was ahead of the calendar by a day. Hanukkah
will begin *tomorrow* (Friday) night.

Cheers!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 07:15:08 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:15:08 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.10.DEC.2009.231508.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (02) [EN]

Scottish tattie scones are to me a simple dish made in a few minutes from
last night's leftover mashed potatoes. Make the potatoes into a ball and
roll it out thinly, sprinkling flou to stop it from sticking. Cut the circle
into quarters and dry fry on a griddle o rin a thick frying pan. Eat with
breakfast or by themselves spread with butter.

Sandy Fleming
Http://scotstext.org/ <http://scotstext.org/>

----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

Ron,

Hi! And greetings from this silent member in Ethiopia!

Thanks for reminding me it is Hannukah ... and helping me with
tonight's menu plan (although the sour cream will have to be replaced
by yogurt, i guess). ... and yes, there WILL be apple sauce!

(PS been so busy here and now it is midterm time and time for first
projects to be due, so I am liable to be even busier in next couple
weeks!

BUT, I have picked out 2-3 of the students here who are excellent
story-tellers and will be asking them to sign The Wren in EthSL as
soon as well all get some free time. Maybe I can get that, and the
Indian SL version, all finished before we all get old and gray(er). )

mike || U C > || ????????  || ???????????? || ????????? || ????????????
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++
          (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))
      Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program
      Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yo afaan wali galle malee, diina keenya il en manque.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, guys.

Good to know the Horn of Africa finally has, you Mike, and good news about
the Wren prospects!

Regards.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 08:02:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:02:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.000200.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (03) [EN]

On 11/12/2009, at 5:15 PM, Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Scottish tattie scones are to me a simple dish made in a few minutes from
last night's leftover mashed potatoes. Make the potatoes into a ball and
roll it out thinly, sprinkling flou to stop it from sticking. Cut the circle
into quarters and dry fry on a griddle o rin a thick frying pan. Eat with
breakfast or by themselves spread with butter.


During my years in Ghana we used to do the same recipe using yams as
potatoes were in very short supply up North.
There however they were made into scone sized but flatter cakes. While OK
they could never beat potatoes.
Britain's culinary bible "Good Housekeeping Cookery Book" however, while
acknowledging they can be made as Sandy suggests
claims they are much better when fresh hot potatoes are mashed and used
immediately. Sandy's recipe worked well for us.

 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 11 19:01:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:01:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.110159.0800.>

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.10 (01) [EN]

Hello Ron,

I remember that, due to the flour shortage, my mother used to bake potato
cakes during the war. The taste was all right. After the war this practice
was looked down upon and people returned to the traditional ingredients for
cakes.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven
Diest (East-Brabant) Belgium

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Delectables"

Beste Ron,

Or shall I say "Oskarchen"?

You wrote:

My family in Northern Germany also had potato pancakes (Low Saxon *
Kart????ffelpuffer*, *Kart????ffelpannkoken*, Northern German *Kartoffelpuffer*,
*Kartoffelpfannkuchen*) as a favorite winter dish, often served on New
Year's Eve. They were made very much like *latkes*, but usually accompanied
only by applesauce (to cut the grease). I'm not sure if this is because my
family's culture owes much to Central and East European cultures or if other
North German families featured the dish as prominently. And what about our
neighbors to the west? And Britain?


For some reason, mentioning potatoes in a North European context inevitably
brings back images from "Die Blechtrommel", wonderful movie about the life
of Oskar Matzerath. In the beginning, Oskar narrates how two police officers
were searching for his grandfather. Oskar's grandmother spent her whole life
sitting on potato fields in Kashubia...therefore, his grandfather decided to
hide under her skirts. That day his mother was begotten...and so on. I
absolutely adore this movie, even though it's "dark" in more than one
respect.

Next to this, and "dark" as well, there's another beautiful piece of art,
where "T??fte" are the main subject, "De Aardappeleters" by Vincent van Gogh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato_Eaters

In my opinion, his best painting.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Delectables"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

> I often wonder what would have become of Northern Europe had the potato
not been introduced from the Americas.

Notwithstanding Sandy's formal doubts regarding "what if"-situations and
definitely trying not to underestimate the importance of that Spanish
import, called potatoes, I'd like to think the lack of them would not
necessarily have been disastrous.

Instead of having to wait till the 21st century to sample noodles big time,
they could have just gotten our way a lot sooner.
Give me lamian (?????? , lagman) anytime.

Besides, China is now the largest potato-producer in the world ;=)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 12 00:25:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:25:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.11.DEC.2009.162509.0800.>

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From: Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (02) [EN]

I used to always think potatoe cake was an Irish dish until Polish freinds
of mine told me they got it from Germans - one of the few positives from
that particular relationship, lol - and the recipe is the same as ours.

Boxty is a variant, both very popular in the northern half of Ireland.
Locally in Offaly, a funny version which is basically a ball of flour in
breadcrumbs fried and tastes very watery is current.

Local chippers do a deep fried version which is not too bad, but the real
potatoe cake is the best.

Its known as Tattie Scones in Ulster Scots and Lallans, and Pretabred in
Hibero-English.

Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks for your contributions to the potato theme, guys.

What other foods do folks eat in this festive season?

I know that in many regions of the Netherlands and Northern Germany it is
traditional to eat kale in the Christmas season. Although we did like eating
kale in the winter months this was not specific to the Christmas season when
I grew up.

In the Netherlands and Belgium, *speculaas* is a traditional baked treat in
the Christmas season, known in Northern Germany as *Spekulatius*, also in
Scandinavia. In Walloon and French it became known as *sp??culoos*, probably
imported via Western Flemish. Hasselt in Belgium is particularly known for
its *speculaas*. I believe that most types of Christmas baked goods
associated with Germany (e.g. *Lebkuchen* and *Christstollen*) are of
southern origin. Apparently, less sophisticated spiced baked goods of
similar types, namely gingerbread in the broadest sense, used to be eaten in
Northern Germany prior to the introduction of the *speculaas* from the
Dutch-speaking neighbors. As far as I know, those were called *peperko(u)ken
* ("peppercakes", also German *Pfefferkuchen*). These made their way to
various parts of the Hanseatic trade region, e.g. Danish *peberkager*,
Norwegian *pepperkaker*, Swedish *pepparkaka*, Latvian *pipark??kas*,
Estonian *piparkoogid*, Finnish *piparkakkut*. In Dutch and Afrikaans these
are called *peperkoek*. The Scots version is *gibbery*.

I can never take my family as typical, since three of my grandparents grew
up in the east (Mecklenburg-Lower Pomerania, Eastern Prussia, and
Lusatia-Lower Silesia) and the fourth (to whom I was not close) was raised
by a mother from Eastern Prussia.

We used to have potato salad with wieners on New Year's Eve, often on
Christmas Eve. We never had goose and only much later had turkey.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 12 23:48:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 15:48:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.12 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.12.DEC.2009.154855.0800.>

===========================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Further on the potato these ...

When I was a child my mother made two types of potato pancakes:

   - "Raw": Raw potatoes and onions are *finely* grated (unlike in the cases
   of *R??sti *and *latkes*), mixed with egg, salt and just enough flour to
   keep them together. They are formed into pancakes and then skillet-fried in
   oil until fully cooked inside and crispy on the outside.
   - "Cooked": Previously boiled potatoes are mashed, mixed with egg, salt,
   a good pinch of nutmeg and just enough flour to keep them together. They are
   formed into pancakes, then lightly dusted with flour and skillet-fried in a
   mixture of oil and butter until crispy on the outside.

The latke party last night (the first night of Hanukkah as well as Sabbath
Eve) was a large and wonderful affair. Almost 2000 *large *latkes were
cooked, and there were several enormous bowls of vegetable salad and fruit
salad, not to mention equally large bowls full of applesauce and sour cream.
There was a lot of music and children's activities. Hanukkah is, technically
speaking, a minor Jewish holiday based an an historical event. But in
America, in Britain and also in 19th- and early-20th-century Germany (in the
wake of Jewish assimilation and the establishment of Progressive Judaism*)
it came to be developed into a big deal, mostly to give Jewish children
their own festival of lights, fun and gifts.

* [The Reform Jewish movement was kicked off in earnest at the Bevis Marks
Synagogue in London (built 1701) and the New Temple in Hamburg (built 1818).
It really took off with large-scale European immigration to North America at
the turn of the 19th to the 20th centuries.]

Happy continuing Advent and Hanukkah!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 13 19:50:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:50:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (02) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.115011.0800.>

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From: Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.12 (01) [EN]

In Ireland the raw is the Boxty and the cooked is the Potatoe Cake /
Pretabred / Tattie Scone

Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace" *

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11. (03) [EN]

Taukieken is best' St??ck Arbeit, man blot nich bi't ??ten

Erinnert man sich an die Feiertage um die Weihnachtszeit und auch zum
Jahreswechsel, spricht man von *Vullbukabend, Vullbuuksabend. *

Wihnachtsabend is Vullbukabend, hadd de Jung' seggt, hadd' ick 'n Lif as 'n
Sch??nfack un 'n Mul as ne Kauh, denn kunn ick wat laten.

Vullbuuksabend m. Abend, an dem t??chtig gegessen und getrunken wird

1. Heiligabend, Weihnachtsabend: *H??t is Vull-Buks-Abend f??r Minschen un
Veih.*

2. Ick weit dat noch von mien Kinnertied. Tau Wihnachten hebben wi tau
Middag ??ten:
    Boiled potatoes/Salzkartoffeln oewer leiwer flourig potatoes/mehlige
Salzkartoffeln.
    Vorweg  shicken soup/H??hnersuppe aus eigenem H??hnerbestand, Hauptgericht
    chicken breast /H??hnerbrust mit erw??hnten flourig potatoes, dazu red
cabbage
    und etwas f??r den Leckerzahn  chocolate pudding with vanilla sauce, das
versteht
    jeder. * *(Uns' ??ten wier woll mihr ein Arm-L????d-??ten.)

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert u. eigene Sammlung

** Und gestern "English Christmas Party Saturday Dezember 12 th, 2009" gab
es K??stlichkeiten zu genie??en.

Wi serve at the table to start with:
Turkey with, Brussels Sprouts, *Roast Potatoes (lecker),*
Yorkshire Pudding, Stuffing,

and desert: Plum Pudding als Christmas Pudding gedacht.

On the buffet you will find:
Cakes and sweets: Christmas Cake, Apple Crumble, Eton Mess, Trifle,
Shortbread, Cream Scones, Christmas Pudding, Chocolate Crinkles, Minced
Pies.

Drinks: Tea, Coffee, Soft Drinks and Eggnogg (damit ich mit meiner
concertina
Quetschkomode fr??hlich aufspielen konnte ..., denn am meisten trank ich
Eggnogg, sehr milde, und habe von allen leckeren Dingen H??ppchen genossen,
lecker.

Anschlie??end sahen wir den Film "A Christmas Carol" nat??rlich auf Englisch.

Ein volles Haus und eine herrliche Begegnung mit Freunden der Engl. Sprache.

F??r mich war es ein sogenannter *Vullbuuksabend.*
**
*Allen Freunden eine heitere Vorweihnachtszeit.*
**
Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 13 21:31:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:31:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.13 (03) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.133143.0800.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: Resources

Ik wull jo geern en Websteed v??rstellen, an de ik arbeidt heff: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/>. Dat is en W????rbook. Op Plattd????tsch. Gewiss
gifft dat al en poor Dutz plattd????tsche W????rb??ker in't Internett. Aver keen
mit groten ??mfang, dat all Dialekten afdeckt un op dat du di verlaten
kannst. Dat W????rbook ??nner <http://deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/> hett al mehr as
45.000 Indr????g, aver dor s??nd veel dubbelte mang un veel, wo du di an'n Kopp
krauen musst. Bi <
http://www.ndr.de/kultur/plattdeutsch/woerterbuch/index.html> kaamt de
Bidr????g ok von de Lesers. Dat is aver ok en Mangelmoos von W????r, de de
Lesers intressant funnen hebbt un de se nu geern de Welt mitdelen wullen. <
http://www.drentswoordenboek.nl/> is en temlich good W????rbook, aver blot
Drents. Dat s??lve bi <http://members.home.nl/dialexicon/index.htm> un
Twents. Dat gifft en poor recht gode ole W????rb??ker bi Google B??ker
(Holsteinisches Idiotikon, G??ttingisch-Grubenhagisches Idiotikon, W??rterbuch
der westf??lischen Mundart etc.), aver in de kannst nich richtig s??ken. Dat
gifft keen Websteed, wo du seggen kannst: jo, dat is _dat_ plattd????tsche
W????rbook.

Ik wull nu geern (un ik weet, dat ik dor veel v??rheff...) en W????rbook
hebben, dat blot Infos sammelt, op de een sik denn ok verlaten kann, dat all
plattd????tsche Dialekten afdeckt un dat nich blot en W????rlist is, nee, dat en
richtig W????rbook is mit allens bi un mit so'n ??mfang, dat dor tominnst
soveel insteiht as in en W????rbook f??r Reisen oder in en Taschenw????rbook. Dat
dor tominnst de W????r instaht, de een so allerdaags bi't Snacken h????rt un
bruukt. (Opstunns is mien W????rbook dor noch wied von weg, dat ji dor nich to
veel verwachten doot.)

Ik m??ss dor nu toeerst maal en Ansatz finnen. Blot all m????gliche
Schrievwiesen in all Dialekten un all Varianten un all Orthografien sammeln,
dat dee bed??den - weet nich - villicht en poor Millionen Indr????g. Dat geiht
nich. Also heff ik en Schridd tr??ch maakt. Ik wull nich de modernen Formen
opschrieven,  ik wull lever de Ooldsassischen (oder V??r-Ooldsassischen)
Formen opschrieven (in en phoneetsche Schrievwies). Un denn all de schaven
Luden chronoloogsch dor op anwennen bet ik de moderne Form heff (noch j??mmer
in phoneetsche Schrievwies). Denn dor op en Orthografie-Funktion anwennen,
de de phoneetsche Schrievwies in en moderne Schrievwies ??mwannelt. Mit disse
Methood lett sik elkeen Woord in elkeen Dialekt un Schrievwies dorstellen.
H????rt sik na en malle Idee an. Ik weer dor toeerst ok nich ??vert????gt von. De
Idee harr ik toeerst 2006 (as wi an't Nadenken weren, wo't opbest weer mit
nds.wiktionary.org, dat wi dat in'e Gang kriegt. Wat wi nie in'e Gang kregen
hebbt [Wikis s??nd en feine Saak f??r Nakieksels, aver en Schiet f??r
W????rb??ker]). Dat hett denn noch dree Johr duert, dat ik dat utprobeert heff
(ik b??n dor nu al s??ss Maand mit in'e Gang). Un dat klappt. Tominnst f??r dat
Noordneddersassische geiht dat good.

Opstunns ??nnerst??tt de Websteed blot vereenheitlicht Noordneddersassisch (de
Utglieksform, de wi veel op nds.wikipedia.org bruukt) un denn noch den
Dialekt von de Stader Geest (mien Heimatdialekt). Ik heff ok al Renderers
f??r dat Platt von'n Barnim un von de West-Veluwe schreven, aver de l??ppt
noch nich so astrein, de m????t eerst noch utbetert warrn. Maal en Bispeel,
woans de W????r verscheden rendert warrt: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (Stader-Geest-Platt)
un <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (vereenheitlicht
Noordneddersassisch). Dat s??nd de beiden W????r 'baven/boben'.

F??r elk Woord sammel ik Infos ut de W????rb??ker, woneem se dat Woord kennt un
bruukt. Ik heff Plattd????tsch in 118 Dialektrebeden indeelt. Disse Infos kann
een sik as Koort wiesen laten: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> un <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> f??r de W????r 'up' un
'op'. De meisten Koorten s??nd nich so vullst??nnig as disse. De meisten s??nd
v??r allen witt (witt steiht f??r: noch keen Infos v??rhannen). Dat liggt dor
an, dat dat unbannig veel Arbeid is, de Infos ut de W????rb??ker ruttos??ken.

Opstunns lett sik de Websteed op Plattd????tsch, D????tsch, Engelsch un
Nedderlandsch instellen. Annere Spraken will ik ok geern tof??gen, wenn dat
een f??r mi ??versett. Opstunns gifft dat op de Websteed en plattd????tsche
Definition von dat Woord (so as de Duden dat mit Hoochd????tsch maakt) un denn
noch dat Woord Hoochd????tsch ??versett. In miene Datenbank offline heff ik ok
noch ??versetten na Engelsch, Nedderlandsch, D????nsch un Eestnisch (sorteert
na de Tall von v??rhannen Indr????g). Aver de s??nd op de Websteed noch nich to
sehn, dat s??nd noch nich noog in'n Vergliek mit de Tall von hoochd????tsch
??versetten. Dat W????rbook hett mehr as 8000 Indr????g mit mehr as 8500 indragen
??nnerbed??den. De Tall von hoochd????tsche ??versetten is 11.000. F??r Engelsch
heff ik blot 3500.

Wenn ji mal en l??ngern Text sehn w??llt, de so rendert is, denn m????t ji jo
mal <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=text&name=tk>
(vereenheitlicht Noordneddersassisch) un <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=1&show=text&name=tk>
(Stader-Geest-Platt) ankieken. Dat is de Geschicht von'n Tuunkr??per.

Bet nu to kann de Websteed noch nich veel mit blot twee Dialekten un de
Websteed is ok noch nich offiziell rut (is noch beta). Aver theoretisch kann
dat Programm en Woord in all de 118 verscheden Dialekten op de Koort
??mwanneln. Ik mutt blot f??r jeden enkelten Dialekt en Renderer schrieven
(dat is nich wenig Arbeid, schall also noch en Stoot duern, bet ik dat trech
heff).

De Websteed is noch nich offiziell rut, aver wenn ji w??llt, dr??fft ji geern
ok al anner L????d dorvon vertellen. Wenn ji dor wat to to seggen hebbt,
Fragen hebbt oder noch Ideen ans, denn man rut dormit. (Opbest aver nich
hier ??ver de List, dat wi Reinhard nich to dull argert.)

Marcus Buck
--

I'd like to introduce to you a little website I created: <
http://www.plattmakers.de/>. It's a dictionary. For Low Saxon. Well, of
course there are dozens of dictionaries online for Low Saxon. But none that
is extensive, fully inclusive and reliable. The dictionary at <
http://deutsch-plattdeutsch.de/> has more than 45,000 entries, but many are
duplicates or dubious user submissions. <
http://www.ndr.de/kultur/plattdeutsch/woerterbuch/index.html> is user-fed
too and mostly a omnium-gatherum of words which users deemed fun to share. <
http://www.drentswoordenboek.nl/> is a really good dictionary, but limited
to Drents. Just the same for <http://members.home.nl/dialexicon/index.htm>
and Twents. There are some extensive dictionaries available on Google Books
(like Holsteinisches Idiotikon, G??ttingisch-Grubenhagisches Idiotikon, the
W??rterbuch der westf??lischen Mundart etc. pp.), but they are all not
searchable. So there's no single resource that can be called _the_ Low Saxon
dictionary.

So my (rather ambitious, I fear) goal was to create a site, that only
collects reliable information, that covers all dialects of Low Saxon, that's
not just a mere word list, but a full-fledged dictionary at least extensive
enough to cover all words that would be present in a travel or small pocket
dictionary. At least covering all the words you are likely to come across in
normal conversation. (At the moment my dictionary is still far away from
fulfilling this specs, so don't expect too much.)

So I needed an approach. Just collecting all the possible spellings in all
dialects and all variants and all orthographies would mean - I dunno - like
several million possible entries. That was no option. So I decided to do a
step back. Instead of storing modern word forms I rather note down the words
in their Old Saxon (or pre-Old Saxon) form (in a phonetic notation). Then I
apply all the sound shifts that occured since then in their chronological
order to arrive at the modern form (still in phonetic notation). Then I
apply an orthography function that renders the phonetic string into a modern
word. With this method I can render a word in any dialect and any
orthography. This may sound like a crazy idea. I was very sceptical of my
own idea too. I originally had this idea back in 2006 (when we were
considering the best way to create a meaningful dictionary at
nds.wiktionary.org, which never gained any momentum [cause wikis are great
for an encyclopedia, but crap for a dictionary]). It took three years until
I actually tried it (and I'm working on it since six months now). And it
works. At least for Northern Low Saxon the results are good.

Right at the moment the live website only supports General Northern Low
Saxon (a form that levels dialectal differences and is much used on
nds.wikipedia.org) and the dialect of the Stader Geest (which is my own home
dialect). I also already created renderers for the Low Saxon dialects of the
Barnim and of the West-Veluwe, but these still have some glitches that need
to be fixed first. To give an example of how the dialects are rendered
differently, have a look at <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (Stader-Geest-Platt)
and <http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=342> (General
Northern Low Saxon). It's the word 'baven/boben' meaning 'up, above'.

For each word I collect information from dictionaries about where the word
is known and used. Therefore I have grouped Low Saxon into 118 different
dialect areas. This information can be visualized in a map, e.g. <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> and <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?show=map&id=286> for the words 'up' and
'op' (meaning 'on, up'). Most maps are not as complete as this example. Most
of them are mostly white (that means: no info available yet) cause it's
quite a bunch of work to collect this information from the dictionaries.

At the moment the interface is available in Low Saxon, German, English and
Dutch. Other languages can be added too, if someone is willing to translate
it. At the moment for each word a definition in Low Saxon and a translation
into German are available online. In my database offline I also already have
collected translations into English, Dutch, Danish and Estonian (in
descending order of number). They are not online so far cause their number
is low compared to the number of German translations. The dictionary has
more than 8000 entries with more than 8500 submeanings. The number of German
translations is about 11,000. For English it is only 3500.

If you want an impression of a longer text rendered like that, see <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=120&show=text&name=tk> (General
Northern Low Saxon) and <
http://www.plattmakers.de/index.php?dial=1&show=text&name=tk>
(Stader-Geest-Platt). It's the wren story.

So far the usefulness of the website with only two available dialects is
limited and it's not officially launched (it's beta). But potentially it can
render a word in any of the 118 different dialects as defined by the dialect
areas you saw on the map. I just need to implement a renderer for each of it
(which is much work, so progress will be slow).

Although it is not officially launched yet, you are still free to share
information about the site if you like. If you want to comment on the site,
if you have questions or any ideas, feel free to write me. (Ideally
off-list, I don't want to mess the list.)

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 14 03:04:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:04:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.13.DEC.2009.190455.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 December 2009 - Volume 04
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.11 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 > Subject: Delectables
>
> Thanks for your contributions to the potato theme, guys.
>
> What other foods do folks eat in this festive season?

We don't traditionally have Christmas in Scotland, but for the New Year
there's "black bun", which is a bit like a fruit cake but the fruit is
so dense the cake looks black. It's made a few months beforehand and
wrapped in a hard, thin pastry to keep the flavour and moisture in as it
matures.

Or these days you can just buy it from the shops!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Sandy.

That sounds very much like English plum pudding (a.k.a. Christmas pudding)
to me, also prepared months in advance and traditionally eaten in this
season. The sauce it's served with tends to contain a good bit of booze.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 14 22:55:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 14:55:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.14 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.14.DEC.2009.145548.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 14 December 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Delectables
>
> Thanks, Sandy.
>
> That sounds very much like English plum pudding (a.k.a. Christmas
> pudding) to me, also prepared months in advance and traditionally
> eaten in this season. The sauce it's served with tends to contain a
> good bit of booze.

Not really, a lot of fruit things are made by the the "seal up and leave
to mature" method, including Christmas cake. Black bun is quite dry,
like fruit cake, and you eat it as a cake, ie, from hand to mouth.

Plum pudding is soft-ish and served with brandy sauce and fire. Brandy
sauce is certainly very nice, right up there with my other favourite
English inventions like cider, perry and champagne  :)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Delectables

Thanks, Sandy.

I bet someone in Scotland has already come across the idea of deep-frying
black bun along with everything else under the sun.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 15 19:02:21 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:02:21 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.15.DEC.2009.110221.0800.>

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Laaglanders,

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster.
 By extending a debate on and on, the filibuster tries to delay or even
prevent voting.

No surprise the word is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish
for freebooter) < flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 19:12:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (01) [DE-EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.111222.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Herkunft Vor- und Zuname

Hallo Freunde,

heute habe ich eine Bitte.

Es ist mir bisher nicht gelungen, Herkunft und Bedeutung  (Vor- und Zunamen)
zu erkunden.
1.  Lionella    (Italien ?)
2.  Pegas      (slawisch ?)

So langsam stellt sich hier der Winter ein...

Hanne

----------

From: Tom??s ?? C??rthaigh <tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]

Charles Stewart Parnell was a master of the art!

*"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written
one is never at peace"*
- www.writingsinrhyme.com  :   ::: -Tom??s on Facebook
<http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=736687279>
:::  - Tom??s Facebook Group<http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57170429046>

From: Hellinckx Luc
<luc.hellinckx at gmail.com<http://ie.mc567.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Laaglanders,

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster.
By extending a debate on and on, the filibuster tries to delay or even
prevent voting.

No surprise the word is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish
for freebooter) < flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 19:16:50 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:16:50 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.16 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.111650.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 02
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 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Tradition

Am 24. Dezember warten die (ungeduldigen) Kinder auf den Weihnachtsmann
(einst Rug'klas, rauher Nikolaus) und insbesondere auf die Gaben
(Geschenke).

Mit einem Zeitvertreib wollte man damals (sicher auch heute)die Kinder
ablenken.

H??lteritt: Ruf beim Nu??spiel *H??ltendroetick, *bei
welchem der eine Spieler entweder erraten mu??, wieviel N??sse der andere in
der Hand h??lt, oder ob diese eine grade oder ungrade Zahl ausmachen.


H??ltendroetick
H??lteritt kloeteritt,
rad' mal wov??l Noet s??nd dit!
H??lteritt  kloeteritt,
grad, ??ngrad?

Als weitere Namen dieses Spiels treten auf:
H??ltendr??ller Jb. 2, 123; Schill.;
H??ltendr??ger  Stargard/Strelitz;
H??ltendw??wing  Kreis  Waren;
H??ltendroeder  Kreis Wismar/Metelsdorf;
H??ltendr??lling  Kreis Malchin/Stavenhagen, Kreis Waren;
H??ltendriddick, -rr-  Kreis Rostock/Brud?;
H??lten Redder, H??lten R??dder, H??lten R??dder, Carl Bartsch, Sagen,
            M??rchen und Gebr??uche aus Mecklenburg;
H??lten Rydder, Ernst Kr??ger, Die volksgt??mlichen Pflanzennamen
            Mecklenburgs, in Arch. 70. Rostock 1916. - Zimmerflora
            Mecklenburgs, in Arch. 69. Rostock 1915;

Die Spielformel, welche mit von Frage zu Frage verst??rktem  Sch??tteln der
N??sse begleitet war, lautet bei  BRI (John Brinckman):
Grad odder ??ngrad? H??ltendroetick! - Lat 'n drawen! - Dor dr??wwt he hen!
H??ltendroetick! - Lat 'n roeteln! - Dor roetelt he hen! - T??m dr??dden lat 'n
runscheln! T??m dr??dden, dor runschelt he hen! H??ltendroetick! Grad' odder
??ngrad'? - H??ltendroetick! ??ngrad'.

h??lten : h??lzern
droeteln : zaudern, z??gern, sich lange besinnen
droetick :  ?

Literatur: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Is dis' Noet tau knacken ...

Gr??uten von Noetknackersch'
Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 16 20:08:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:08:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (03) [EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.120828.0800.>

===========================================
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===========================================

From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.15 (01) [EN]

Am 15.12.2009, 20:02 Uhr, scraif Hellinckx Luc:

Following the Copenhagen climate talks a bit, I came across a quintessential
term in (Western) politics: the filibuster. By extending a debate on and on,
the filibuster tries to delay or even prevent voting. No surprise the word
is of Dutch origin: filibuster < filibustero (Spanish for freebooter) <
flibustier (French) < vrijbuiter (D).


Heyl putsig, dat h??dde ik nig dacht, dat uuse un juue friib????ter/-bouter hd.
'Freibeuter' d??r pade f??r staun hewwet. Man lickers bin ik nu nig sieker, of
dat meer van ??boutpeople?? of van'n ??b????te maken?? k??mt.

joachim
-- 
Met echt-westf??lsken ??Goutgaun!??
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??gge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Yes, Luc, thanks a lot. Like our Joachim (Low Saxon: Jochen), I had not made
that connection. I suppose the "l" and the "s" make it difficult to suspect
a connection with "freebooter."

What I find particularly interesting is the intrusion of "s" which I suspect
happened in French at the time /s/ had begun to be "deleted" before stops,
thus in analogy with words like (*gustus* >) *go??t* 'taste', (*castellum* >)
*ch??teau* 'castle', (*hospitale* >) *h??pital* 'hospital', *h??tel* 'hostel',
and (*stabilire* > *establir* >) *??tablir* 'to establish'.

Of course, English "freebooter" is believed to be a direct
pre-diphthongization Middle Dutch loan, at a time when "ij" was still
pronounced [i:] and probably before the "uu" to "ui" shift. The verb was/is
*vrijbuit* ("free-boot(y)") 'to plunder'. I assume that German
*Freibeuter*comes from the same source.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 17 02:27:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:27:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.16.DEC.2009.182726.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 16 December 2009 - Volume 04
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Beste Ron,

On 16/12/09, at 21:08, Lowlands-L List wrote:

What I find particularly interesting is the intrusion of "s" which I suspect
happened in French at the time /s/ had begun to be "deleted" before stops,
thus in analogy with words like (*gustus* >) *go????t* 'taste', (*castellum*>)
*ch????teau* 'castle', (*hospitale* >) *h????pital* 'hospital',
*h????tel*'hostel', and (
*stabilire* > *establir* >) *????tablir* 'to establish'.


I can't give you a precise time frame for the "sublimation" of /s/ in French
(? 17th century or even later ?), but 16th century (written) French was
still using /s/ systematically it seems. The "vrijbuiter" loan probably
predates that period. Walloon still retains /s/ in some cases and Occitan
even more so. Southern Dutch "goesting, goeste" for "go??t" (French for
taste) is another example.
Re "filibuster": an older French form is "fribustier". Maybe French
"bustier" interfered as well? If not, the /s/ may be explained as a case of
hypercorrection. If /s/ was on the way out first in Northern French, and
Central French got to loan something from the North, maybe they
automatically added an /s/, because they erroneously thought that the /s/
would have been omitted anyway.

Of course, English "freebooter" is believed to be a direct
pre-diphthongization Middle Dutch loan, at a time when "ij" was still
pronounced [i:] and probably before the "uu" to "ui" shift. The verb was/is
*vrijbuit* ("free-boot(y)") 'to plunder'. I assume that German
*Freibeuter*comes from the same source.


It does. The "uu" > "ui" shift can be described fairly accurately, both
geographically and chronologically. However, "buit" (in "vrij-buiter") is
precisely one of those very few exceptions that never obeyed this rule. Even
Brabantish, which has diphtongized more than you can shake a stick at,
"buit" is still pronounced "b????t" these days by (older) dialect speakers
(Kiliaan also testifies "buet"). There is apparently no agreement on a
further etymology of "buit", but some see cognates in Celtic languages.
"Buit" typically refers to the spoils of war, booty, so maybe it's a
substrate word that goes back to the days of the invading Indo-European
tribes, conquering older local populations? Taboo words, "Geheimsprachen" or
terms pertaining to criminal offense do sometimes lead a life of their own
and are much more resistent to phonological innovations.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 17 16:45:20 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:45:20 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (01) [DA-DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.084520.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.16 (02) [DE]

Dat hett niks mit "Holt" un "h??lten" tau daun.

H??lt een ryter f??r de purt  ( ein Reiter h??lt vor dem Tor )
L??t em inn  ( lass ihn herein )
R???? m??l tau, wo veel s??nt d??r inn  ( rate mal, wie viele sind da drin )
Nutt, butt, jippstiert  ( steht hier f??r eins, zwei, drei )

So w??r dat uns hiir in Niestat ??werl??wert.

Quelle: Mein Gro??vater Heinrich Bruhn, geb.21.08.1880 in Marxdorf.

Viele Gr????e
Uwe

Uwe Tychsen
D-23730 Neustadt in Holstein
tychsen at t-online.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Etymology

Beste Uwe,


Dat is mi ???n bes??nnere H??g???, dat du nu ook mit vun de Partie b??st.


Og det er altid rart, n??r en ???platsnakker??? deltager, som ogs?? kan sprogen
vores nordlige naboer.


Willkamen! / Velkommen!


Gr??ten / Hilsen,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.16 (03) [EN-NDS]

Ich schlie??e mich dieser Diskussionsrunde gern an ...

Freibeuter
Synonymw??rterbuch: Freibeuter siehe Seer??uber.
Unter Seer??uber fand ich Pirat, Korsar, Freibeuter + Flibustier, Bukanier,
Likendeeler.

Im DUDEN Etymologie der deutschen Sprache entdeckte ich folgendes. Das
Suchwort 'Freibeuter' fand ich unter Beute.
Nach Defination Beute, erbeuten, ausbeuten, im 19. Jh. das politische
Schlagwort Ausbeuter und endlich das Wort Freibeuter "Seer??uber" (mnd.
vributerer <u mit ->,  "Schiffsf??hrer mit Vollmacht zum Kapern; Seer??uber",
zu vribute  "freigegebene Kriegsbeute"; entsprechend niederl. Vrijbuiter).

Wossidlo/Teuchert:
Seer??wer, mod. Oft hd. -r??uber, Pl. -s m. Seer??uber: pirata, praemiator
'Seerover, Fryebuter CHYTR.: Nathan Chytr??us, Nomenclator Latino-saxonicus
denuo editus. Rostock 1613; 'unser land Gotland unde de stad Wisbu to de
tyd, do beyde . . .  de seerover . . . ingenommen hadden' (1399), - 'de
Seerover dar Go(e)tke Michel unde
Sto(e)rtebeker de Oversten van gewesen'.
Spottname der Dar??er: Seer??wers; der Ribnitzer: Seer??ubers;
Knabenspiel "Seer??uber sp??len", auf Eisschollen fahren; auch scherzhaft f??r
Heringe.

Na denn , wohrt jug v??r de Piraten!

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 06:55:51 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:55:51 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.12.17 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.225551.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 17 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity"

Beste Ron,

Truly wonderful article about life and death of a language...with a number
of Lowlands twists in it of course ;=):

Q and A: The Death of
Languages<http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/q-and-a-the-death-of-languages/>

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language diversity

Thank you so much for sharing that article with us, dear Luc!

After some initial skimming I decided to read it more thoroughly tomorrow.
Obviously, it is on a subject near and dear to the hearts of many of our
fellow-Lowlanders. It would be quite suitable to announce even *if* there
were no direct reference to Lowlands languages (which is pretty much
impossible because of English). After all, the theoretical framework that
can be applied to most situations.

Today I killed a few minutes of 60 in a couple of bookstores and again had
to realize that not only books about language diversity intended for the
layperson but even those intended for academic readerships are sorely
lacking in accuracy, even those that by way of their titles make you assume
that they are be-all and end-all in the field. Most of the information is
either of date or is simplified to the degree of ridiculousness. For
example, Low Saxon is still portrayed as a German dialect group
distinguished only by the lack of sound shifts, west of it there's only
"Dutch" and "Flemish," Standard West Frisian is implicitly used in both the
Netherlands and Germany, Occitan is presented as the "Proven??al dialects of
French," and languages like Picard and Walloon were not even mentioned. And
forget about Scots! The same goes for the European Languages Charter.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 06:57:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:57:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.17.DEC.2009.225726.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (01) [DA-DE-NDS]

Hier noch 'n Nahklapp...

Wossidlo/Teuchert  Mecklenburgisches W??rterbuch

hollen : halten: Pr??s. holl, h??llst, h??llt, hollen; Pr??t. h??ll, h??ll, auch
h??l, hel; Pr??t. hollen.

h??lten, h??lten,j??nger h??ltern h??lzern. 1. attributiv von Gegenst??nden und
Ger??ten, welche aus Holz gefertigt sind

H??ltenassenwagen m. Wagen mit einer massiv h??lzernen Achse, auf welcher
Schamel Dreihschamel ruht. H??ltenassig mit einer h??lzernen Achse versehen.
H??lten Bratappel : Kosewort f??r die Geliebte.
Ein Herz hat jederman, un wenn't ok man 'n h??lten is : beim Ausspielen einer
Herzkarte .  Oll  H??ltern: sehr mageres Schaf. H??ltenhaftig, schwerf??llig an
K??rper und Geist: he is so'n b??ten h??ltenhaftig; h??ltenroedig: mit h??lzernen
R??dern versehen; ne h??ltenroedig Klock : alte Wanduhr; H??ltenstiert heit min
Pierd: im Hausstandreim; H??ltent??ffelba?? m. sehr tiefer Ba??, usw. usw..

Ein fr??ndlich Gr??uten.

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 18:28:09 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:28:09 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.102809.0800.>

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.13 (04) [EN]

from Heather Rendall  heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

re Christmas Food

I have only just had time to read all the mails that have been piling up on
Christmas Fare and now that my mouth is watering I thought I would add my
pennyworth.

Thanks Goodness for Lidl! Now I can have an endless supply of Pfeffern??sse,
allerlei Arten Lebkuchen and Stollen which have been part of our family
Christmas since ever but used to have to be searched for as they were not in
easy supply in shops. So thanks again to Lidl!

But thanks also to the French whose chocolate chestnut log  B??che de No??l is
also a staple at Christmas Tea. My children never like rich fruit cake and
so a B??che always appears. And now they are grown up and have their own
families, they each get their own as a present - along with a Christmas
Pudding ( made during the Oct half term so all can stir in their own coin
and make a wish) with a large tub of Brandy Butter - ten times better than
Brandy sauce.

Whip 6oz of butter with at least 10oz icing sugar until it is light and
fluffy; drizzle in while still whipping brandy, until a soft white fluffy
cream is reached. Put into pot - lick the spoon. Lick bowl and put in
dishwasher. Lick fingers ( it really is that good!) Cover pot and keep in
fridge until needed. Bring out before starting dinner so that it reaches
room temperature.

We also have the traditional turkey but I have cheated twice now and bought
a boned turkey - it may not look as good but it is soooooooo easy to carve
and there's no red meat. Delicious.

Bread sauce is a must; as is cranberry sauce; we also love Hannover Sauce (
the best bit about turkey sandwiches for the rest of the week ; made with
liver and lemon it is the perfect compliment to turkey) and stuffing
dumplings made with suet ( Nierenfett) so they are nice and light. My
husband's family always ate Carrot Parsnip mash with their turkey, so we do
too. I make masses of it so it too can go into turkey sandwiches. We now
enjoy pur??ed Sprouts with chestnuts which are so different from ordinary
sprouts.

We too light our Christmas Pudding; and I have to run round the table while
it is still alight in order to ensure luck for the rest of the year. The
pudding ( one of 5 that I make) has well wrapped money to be found and of
course the pudding comes to the table adorned with a sprig of holly.

Mincepies; nuts; tangerines; liqueur chocolates... an open fire. And a cup
of tea because all the cooking is over.

Bliss!

Happy Christmas !

Heather

Worcester UK

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 18 18:29:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:29:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.18 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.102959.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.17 (03) [DE-NDS]

Denn m?t wi dat wull richdi mit twee l schriiben:

H?llt een ryter f?r de purt  ( ein Reiter h?lt vor dem Tor )

Veelen Dank
un sch??ne Wiinachen

Uwe
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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 19 06:12:22 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:12:22 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.18 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.221222.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L Traditions

Humorous portion of the Hannukah message I received below got me thinking.
Interestingly enough playing  a gambling game called PUT AND TAKE was common
practice in Scotland even when gambling was illegal.
Even grandparents spoke about it.
Tiny brass tops of dreidel form with several sides were sold in newsagents.
Instead of Hebrew characters they had stuff like
PUT ONE, TAKE TWO, PUT ALL, etc on the sides. I am convinced they were
adapted form the dreidel which I never encountered in Scotland
where Jewish folks were a very small minority.

Begin forwarded message:

The traditional Chaaunkah toy is a dreidel, a kind of top, which is a
misnomer, 'cause when you spin it, it always lands on its side, never on its
top. Little known "fact": When Cole Porter wrote, "You're the Tops," he was
attending a Chanukah party.

The Hebrew letters on the dreidel stand for the words Nays Gawdawl Hawyaw
Shawm, or in English, Made in Japan.

No, actually the words mean, "A great miracle was there." The miracle is
that there are any new customers left to buy more dreidels in each
successive year.

The dreidel game is a gambling gmae--you put in or take out a certain amount
of money from the pot according to which letter comes up when you spin the
dreidel. (Don't look for the joke--that part was true.) This is how Jewish
people teach their kids to count. (THAT was the punchline.)


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 19 06:15:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:15:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.18.DEC.2009.221501.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2009.12.18 (01) [EN]

B??ter wat in 't Liew as ??m't Liew

Hm, G??nsebraten. . .

Die Weihnachtsgans l??uft durch die Welt,
als ob sie keine w??re.
Dabei ist sie l??ngst vorbestellt
f??r die Gefl??gelschere.

Sie wippt nur l??ssig mit dem Schwanz
und glaubt, sie lebt noch lange;
und vor dem Titel "Weihnachtsgans"
ist ihr bisher nicht bange.

Die Hausfrau kauft die Pfanne ein
und denkt: Bleib du nur friedlich.
Bald wirst du drin als Braten sein,
sch??n braun und appetitlich.

Die Weihnachtsgans l??uft durch die Welt
und kleckert auf die Wiese.
Dabei ist sie l??ngst vorbestellt
zu Kl????en und Gem??se.

Autor: Peter Uhu (Sammlung. H. Hinz)

Gausbraden

De utnahmen Gaus waschen, binnen un buten mit Solt inrieben, mit schellte,
utsn??den Appel, inweckte Backplummen orer (un) Rosin f??llen, toneihen, mit'n
b??ten kolt Water in den' anwarmten Backaben schuben un brun braden laten.
Dorbi ofteens mit
dat Bradenwater begeiten. Toletzt de So?? anseimen, mit Soltkart??ffeln un
s??tsuer Rotkohl ??ten.
Man kann dat F??llsel ok mit r??ben Tweeback un 'n b??ten Zimt un Zucker
afsmecken. De So?? d??rf ??wer nich s??t warden. Een l??tt Glas Rum dortw??schen
is nich verkiehrt.

Nun f??r die Hochdeutschen

G??nsebraten

Die ausgenommene Gans waschen, innen und au??en mit Salz einreiben, mit
gesch??lten geviertelten ??pfeln und eingeweichten Backpflaumen oder (und)
Rosinen f??llen, zun??hen, mit etwas kaltem Wasser in die vorgeheizte R??hre
schieben. Unter h??ufigem Begie??en goldbraun braten. Zum Schlu?? die So??e
binden, mit Salzkartoffeln und Rotkohl anrichten.
Man kann das F??llsel mit geriebenem Zwieback mengen und schwach mit Zimt und
Zucker abschmecken. Die So??e darf dadurch aber nicht s???? werden. Ein
Gl??schen Rum verfeinert die F??llung noch mehr.

Un achteran . . .

Meckelborger G??tterspies

1 Pund utsteente orer inweckte Kirschen. 1/2 ??lleres Swartbrot. 1/4 l
Slagsahn.
1 Tassenkopp vull Zucker. Rum.
Dat Swartbrot rieben, mit Zucker verm??ngeleern un d??chdig natt maken mit
Rum.
Utsteente orer inweckte Kirschen ??wer dat r??ben Swartbrot leggen, babenup de
s??te slagen Sahn. Dat m??t glieks up??ten warden.

Auch dieses f??r die Hochdeutschen

Mecklenburger G??tterspeise

500 g ausgesteinte oder eingeweckte Kirschen, 1/2 ??lteres Schwarzbrot, 1/4 l
Schlagsahne, 1 Tasse voll Zucker, Rum.
Das Schwarzbrot reiben, mit Zucker mischen und alles t??chtig mit Rum
tr??nken.
Ausgesteinte oder eingeweckte Kirschen ??ber das geriebene Schwarzbrot
verteilen, obenauf die s????e Schlagsahne. Dieses mu?? gleich aufgegessen
werden.

Literatur: Mecklenburgische Rezepte
Herausgeber: Mecklenburgisches Folklorezentrum Rostock (heute
Volkskulturinstitut) in
Zusammenarbeit mit dem Historischen Museum Schwerin.

Un wenn ein so richtig updischen k??nn, denn hett dat heiten: "??t langsam,
mien Soehn, du gl??wst gor nich, wat sick mit de Tied rinner dr??cken lett."

Ein Schaullihrer, de beten wat niglich (neugierig) wier, fr??ggt in de Schaul
einen
Jungen:"Wat b??den ji denn middags ??mmer tau Huus?"
"Gor nicks", seggt de Jung'.
"Seggen denn juug' Vadder un Mudder ok nicks, wenn ??ten ward?"
"Jaa, de seggen wat."
"Wat seggt denn juug Vadder?"
"Kamt ran, Jungs!"
"Hm, un wat seggt juug Mudder?"
"Haugt rin, ji L??wen!"

Literatur: Sammlung "L??tt B??kerie" R. Wossidlo

Makt dat nich tau dull. Wat in fief Minuten up??ten is, sitt later drei Maand
up de H??ften.

Liekers,  "Een god St??ck Speck makt 'n fasten Kierl"

Hartlich Gr??uten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 20:05:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:05:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.120540.0800.>

===========================================
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: Dangast - Wolgast

 Liebe Lowlanders,

neulich ist es mir tats??chlich passiert, dass ich die Namen der St??dte
Dangast und Wolgast verwechselt habe. Dabei ist Dangast friesisch und
Wolgast slawisch. Zu Wolgast habe ich auch Hinweise auf die Wortherkunft
gefunden, zu Dangast nicht. Wei?? jemand, was "Dangast" bedeutet und wieso
Dangast so hei??t, beinahe wie Wolgast, das doch praktisch am anderen Ende
der Krone des plattdeutschen Eekbooms liegt? ;-)

Herzliche Adventsgr????e an alle!

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 22:26:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:26:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.142642.0800.>

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: Dangast - Wolgast
>
> Liebe Lowlanders,
>  neulich ist es mir tats??chlich passiert, dass ich die Namen der St??dte
> Dangast und Wolgast verwechselt habe. Dabei ist Dangast friesisch und
> Wolgast slawisch. Zu Wolgast habe ich auch Hinweise auf die Wortherkunft
> gefunden, zu Dangast nicht. Wei?? jemand, was "Dangast" bedeutet und wieso
> Dangast so hei??t, beinahe wie Wolgast, das doch praktisch am anderen Ende
> der Krone des plattdeutschen Eekbooms liegt? ;-)
>  Herzliche Adventsgr????e an alle!
>  Marlou
>
To "Gast":

 3.

    *Ortsname *

Der Name Holtgast entstand durch die landschaftliche Beschaffenheit des
Dorfgebietes. W??hrend die erste Silbe ???Holt??? auf einige Geh??lze in der
Gemarkung hinweisen, gibt es f??r die zweite Silbe zwei
Deutungsm??glichkeiten. Denn das Dorf liegt mit den Nachbarorten Utgast und
Hartsgast auf einem gro??fl??chigen, verh??ltnism????ig fruchtbaren Geestr??cken,
der sich durch abgelagerten Flugsand auf wasserundurchl??ssige
Geschiebemergelschichten nach den Saale- und Weichsel-Kaltzeiten bildete.
Solche Fl??chen nennt man in Ostfriesland ???Gaste??? und anderswo auch ???Esch???.
Zudem entstanden hier im zehnten Jahrhundert Gemeinschafts??cker, die
ebenfalls mit ???Gaste??? bezeichnet wurden. Davon abgeleitet lautete der
Ortsname bis ins 19. Jahrhundert ???Holtgaste???. Sp??ter wurde daraus Holtgast
und bedeutet ???bewaldeter Geestr??cken???.
<http://www.holtgast-urlaub.de/holtgast-heimat-ag/geschichte/holtgast.htm>

Un to den Eekboom m????t wi ja man noch eben seggen, dat de Boom en d??chtigen
Blitzschaden afkregen hett. V??rher weer Wolgast so temlich in'e Midd.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

Hallo Marlou und liebe Lowlanders,

es k??nnte ja sein, dass folgende Angaben dir noch nicht bekannt sind:

*Wolgast: *Altslawische Fischer- und Schiffersiedlung mit Kultst??tte; Anfang
12. Jh. pommersche Burg und Burgsiedlung; Erhebung zur Stadt durch den
Pommernherzog um 1250 (1259 civitas); Seehandelsplatz (Hansestadt);
Schiffbau seit 19. Jh. (Peenewerft).
W. ist einer der Orte, den Missionsbischof Otto von Bamberg auf seiner
Pommernreise aufsuchte und der deshalb von den Chronisten und Biographen des
Bischofs schon zu 1123, 1125 und 1128 genannt wird: Die Viten haben Hologost
(a) und Ologost, Helmold von Bosau schreibt (1165/70 Woligost, -gast. Die
Urkunden bieten 1140, 1188 Wologost, 1186 Wolegost, 1197 Wolegast, 1229,
1259 Wolgust; seit etwa 1250 allgemeinn Wolgast (1250, 1331 usw.). Die
Formen *Walo-, Wala- *und* -gast  *(z. B. bei
Saxo und in der Knytlingasaga  vom Ende des 12. Jh.) stellen
Germanisierungen des Namens dar. - Man hat von dem altpolabischen
Personennamen  *Voligost, *der mit dem possessivischen Suffix  *- j -
*erweitert
wurde, auszugehen. Er steckt auch im Namen des  *Wulstbaches   *in
Th??ringen.

Lit.: St??dtenamenbuch der DDR  VEB Bibliographisches Institut Leipzig, 1986
       ISBN 3-323-00007-2

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolgast

www.stadtbibliothek.wolgast.de

http://www.dangast.com/

Wolgast ist eine Reise wert.

Herzliche Gr????e

Hanne

----------

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (01) [DE]

Hallo Marlou!

Auf http://www.onomastik.com/forum/about990.html haben sich schon andere die
gleiche Frage gestellt ??? da gibt es eine recht umfassende Diskussion. In
K??rze: Die (west-) slawische Nachsilbe Gast leitet sich von slawisch ???gost???
oder ???gast??? her (deutsche Bedeutung ???Neuank??mmling??? oder ???Gast???), welche
oftmals Bestandteil von Personennamen ist. In Ortnamen findet sie sich im
gesamten westslawischen Siedlungsgebiet. Das friesische ???gast??? (wie in
???Dangast??? und noch ??ber 20 weiteren friesischen Ortsnamen) entspricht LS
???Geest??? = ???hochgelegenes Ackerland ???- Sollte gut zu Dangast passen ???
scheinbar die einzige K&die;stengemeinde Ostfireslands die keinen Deich
ben??tigt, da sie auf einem eiszeitlichen Geestr??cken liegt.

Julh??lsningar fr??n Sverige

Wolfram

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 21 23:27:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:27:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.152700.0800.>

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hei folks!

My father asked me about any possible relations between the Hindu
mythological snake (or something) Nacar/nakar, as he had just been in
Thailand, and words like Latin niger (black) and its offsprings, Romance
words like nacar (nacre), and ther Germanic nicker, nykr, and similar (water
"ghost").
I figured the nacre-group probably wouldn't be related as the english etym.
dictionary traces it back to Arabic, but the others could theoretically be
related as far as I know, by sound-laws. But I don't have the right books
here to find out if it makes any sense; I personally think he's just making
folk etymologies but I can't prove him right or wrong. To this nakar(nacar?)
snake-creature in Sanskrit, could possibly be related English snake with
s-mobile or so, but again I am on too thin ice to suppose anything really.

Anyone ideas on this?

Cheers!

Diederik, Antwerp (temporarily)

PS thanks for the whole latkas-discussion! Last week, before I left home for
christmas this week I found a few potatoes I had to eat before leaving, so
inspired by the discussion here I decided to attempt some R??sti's for the
first time ever. They need some more refining and tweaks, but were pretty
okay and it was a great idea to try. More cheers!

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (02) [DE-NDS]

Ha!, liebe Lowlanders, klasse, vielen Dank! Gast = Geest, das leuchtet mir
spontan ein! Die Erkl??rung f??r das slawische -gast hatte ich auch schon
gelesen und nur zur Kenntnis genommen, da ich keine slawische Sprache
beherrsche und da also kein Sprachgef??hl "aus dem Bauch" antwortet. (Sehr
schade, ich wollte immer mal eine slawische Sprache lernen.) Aber bei
Gast/Geest kommt die volle Resonanz des gro??en "Ahaaa!", ein sch??nes Gef??hl.
Upps, mir geraten hier die Metaphern au??er Kontrolle :-)

Danke auch f??r das Link zu der Onomastik-Seite, lieber Wolfram, die kannte
ich noch nicht und habe sie gleich in meine Lesezeichen aufgenommen.

Was den Eekboom und seine Originalbreite angeht, der reckt doch vun
Pommern bet Nederland, nicht? Ist Wolgast nicht schon Pommern? Vorpommern
jedenfalls, und das nicht zu knapp?
Ist das Ostpreu??ische Niederdeutsch eigentlich richtiges Niederdeutsch? Kann
man die Breite des Eekbooms in L??ngengraden angeben? Ich k??nnte mir denken,
dass sie gerade auf der ??stlichen Seite ??fters geschwankt hat, oder? Pommern
ist gro?? -- an welche Grenzen des Eekbooms hat Reuter zu seiner Zeit
gedacht?

Hartlich Dank & Gr??ten!

Marlou

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 02:15:47 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:15:47 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.21.DEC.2009.181547.0800.>

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From: Robert Kelly <kelly at bard.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

Sanskrit *naga *(in religion and myth a race of wise serpent beings who live
under the sea and deep within the earth).  Originally IE *snaga -- unvoiced
in English as snake, and thus evidently in the Thai pronunciation of
Sanskrit/Pali.
RK

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thank you, Robert.

The Low Saxon cognate is *snake* ["snA:ke] ~ *snaak* [snA:k].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: All of you that celebrate it, please have a very happy Christmas and
travel carefully if you must travel!

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 02:17:00 2009
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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:17:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 21 December 2009 - Volume 05
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

 From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Was den Eekboom und seine Originalbreite angeht, der reckt doch vun
Pommern bet Nederland, nicht? Ist Wolgast nicht schon Pommern? Vorpommern
jedenfalls, und das nicht zu knapp?
Ist das Ostpreu??ische Niederdeutsch eigentlich richtiges Niederdeutsch?

 Absolut! Wenn een sik en beten mit de Dialekte befaten deit, denn markt
een, dat Pommern veel von Westfalen un deelwies von de Nedderlannen afkregen
hett (lang nich so dull as de Mark Brannenborg, aver dat is doch to marken),
Pr????en hett mehr von dat Noordneddersassische afkregen. Wenn de Pr????en nich
so'n snaaksche Utspraak harrn, denn weer dat temlich ??hnlich mit de Spraak
in Neddersassen, Holsteen oder Mekelborg.

 Mal en Bispeel (Heinrich Toball, 1892):
*??n dem Ermland gew man fr??her
Jude nie dat B??rgerrecht,
K??rte Tiet nur kunnes bliewe,
Wenn de Steuer w??r geblecht.

W??r de Fr??st om, mu??tes wedder
??n dat Utland reise schnell,
Keeme bold tor??g von dissem
Noah de ole Nohrungsstell.

Wer von Zinten keem, kunn segge,
Dat he w??r ??m fremde Land,
Darom wurd on wat noch hiede
Zinten ???Utland??? nur genannt.*
<http://wikisource.org/wiki/Ostpreussische_Sagen_und_Schw%C3%A4nke/Dat_Utland><http://wikisource.org/wiki/Ostpreussische_Sagen_und_Schw%C3%A4nke/Dat_Utland>

 De Oostpr?????? maakt ut 'i' en '??' ('??n'), lett dat 'n' an't Enn von W????r ut
('bliewe'), maakt ut 'u' en 'o' ('on') un ut '??' en 'i' ('hiede'). Poor W????r
s??nd verhoochd????tsch ('Steuer', 'geblecht', 'genannt', 'nur'). De
Wenker-Koort to 'nur' wiest aver, dat ok in Oostpr????en 'man' gellt hett un
dat dit 'nur' nich generell gellt. De Rest is allens normal Plattd????tsch.

Pommern ist gro?? -- an welche Grenzen des Eekbooms hat Reuter zu seiner Zeit
gedacht?

 Reuter schrifft worraftig von Pommern un ik weet nich, wo he de Grenz
treckt hett. Aver recht hett he dor nich mit.

Kann man die Breite des Eekbooms in L??ngengraden angeben? Ich k??nnte mir
denken, dass sie gerade auf der ??stlichen Seite ??fters geschwankt hat, oder?

 Wat meenst du denn mit "geschwankt"? Schwankt in'n Sinn von "hen un her" is
dor nich veel. In enkelte D??rper hett dat veel Spraakkuddelmuddel geven.
Schall woll ok v??rkamen hebben, dat en D??rp in de een Generatschoon v??r
allen Platt weer un twee Generatschonen later weer wedder Litausch de Spraak
von de Mehrheit. Aver wenn wi dat grote Ganze ankiekt, denn hett Platt
j??mmer mehr Land towunnen. Dat weer sogor in't 20. Johrhunnert noch j??mmer
so, dat Litauers un Masuren jemehr Spraak opgeven un Platt as Spraak
annahmen hebbt. Ik heff v??r en Tied en Book ut de eerste Tied von't 20.
Johrhunnert leest, dor hett sik so'n national instellten Hoochd????tschen
beklaagt, dat de Germanisierung von Masuren nich so recht v??rankummt,
vonwegen dat de Masuren blot dat Plattd????tsch annehmt, aver keen ??nnig
Hoochd????tsch lehrt.

 Dat d????tsche Riek weer in'n Noorden in Nimmersatt to Enn. Nimmersatt hett
keen Wenker-Bagen bi DIWA, aver tominnst ut Truschellen hebbt wi en
plattd????tschen Wenker-Bagen. Truschellen heet vondaag Tru??eliai un liggt
mehr as 50 km binnenlands in Litauen. Von dor na Wolgast s??nd dat ??m un bi
675 km. Von Wolgast na Bunschoten s??nd dat ??m un bi 715 km. Wolgast is also
temlich de Midd.

 Wenn du dat op en Koort sehn willst, denn heff ik ok wat:
<http://wiki.marcusbuck.org/Koort/Koort.php><http://wiki.marcusbuck.org/Koort/Koort.php>

 Dor heff ik de Rebeden intekent, in de Plattd????tsch snackt warrt. De blauen
Grenzen wiest de Spraakgrenz, so as de Wenker-Atlas ehr wiest. Wohrschau:
Twischen Danzig, Brombarg un Posen fehlt de Kaschuubschen un Poolschen
Spraakrebeden, dor warrt nich ??verall Platt snackt. In Masuren fehlt de
Grenz noch.

 De l??tten gr??nen Placken s??nd plattd????tsche D??rper in Polen. De dree roden
Lienen bi Halle Leipzig wiest de ole Spraakgrenz in't Middel??ller un in de
fr??he Neetied so as se bi Carl Winderlich: Deutschland. Ein vollst??ndiges
Handbuch f??r die Kunde des Vaterlandes. 1852,
<http://books.google.com/books?id=IFYAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA359><http://books.google.com/books?id=IFYAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA359>un
bi Sprachgeschichte: ein Handbuch zur Geschichte der deutschen Sprache
und ihrer Erforschung,
<http://books.google.de/books?id=DZwbJjFlqJYC&pg=PA2455><http://books.google.de/books?id=DZwbJjFlqJYC&pg=PA2455>angeven
is.

 De plautdietschen Rebeden s??nd ok intekent. ??m dor hen to finnen, gifft dat
hier Links:
<http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker_Diskuschoon:Slomox/Plattgrenzen#Direktlenken><http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker_Diskuschoon:Slomox/Plattgrenzen#Direktlenken>
.

 Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 16:07:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:07:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.080706.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2009 - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (04) [DE-EN-NDS]

When and where did the Germanic snake/slang division occur? I hadn't
realised there was a Lowlands "snake" being only familiar with Afrikaans and
some Dutch. I'd assumed English snake was related to Norse "snekja".

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Etymology

Good question, Paul. Modern Low Saxon has both *slang* and *snaak* for
"snake", but in Old Saxon and Old Low Frankish I can only locate *slanga*.

I wonder if Low Saxon *snaaksch* and Dutch *snaaks* 'droll', 'weird', were
derived from *snake* > *snaak* 'snake' (thus *"snakish").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

P.S.: From now on days are getting longer in the Northern Hemisphere!

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 16:34:42 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:34:42 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.083442.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]

Leve Marcus, danke f??r de intressanten Infos! Vun dat oost- un
westpreu??ische Platt harr ik al mal so'n poor Bispelen h????rt, de mit
hoochd????tsche W????r (s??nnerlich Partizipen mit ge-) d??rwussen weern, un harr
Twievel kregen. De W????r eenfach to subtraheern un den Rest to bekieken, op
de Idee weer ik nich kamen.

Ik harr sachs instinktiv annahmen, Reuter harr "vun Pommern bet Nederland"
exklusive meent, he hett dat avers anschienend inklusive meent -- also dat
Pommern un Nederland noch dortoh????rt. Dat weer denn wohl dat "politisch
korrekte" Denken, denn mennig Nederl??nners h????rt dat nich geern; avers
tominnst deelwies stimmt dat ja.

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.21 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Sunject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Marlou und Marcus, dir auch Ron,

Jeder Diphthong ( Sprache) besteht aus zwei Vokalen, die beide den ihnen
eigent??mlichen Klangcharakter zwar erkennen lassen, alleinn durch rasche
Verschmelzunng zu einer Klangeinheit neutralisiert werden.
Im Gesaange treten wesentliche Modifikationen ein, die das klangliche
Verh??ltnis der Stammvokale bez??glich ihrer musikalischen Zeitwerte zu
einander erst endg??ltig bestimmen.

Also z.B. : sprich das Wort "Ei"   AE = Ei

Man sagt auch, kein Diphthong wird so gesprochen wie er geschrieben ist (es
mag wohl Ausnahmen geben?).

Der Ostpreu??e spricht das Wort "Ei"   e: i

Marjalchen mit das jalbe (gelbe) von das Ei (e: i)

Im Hochdeutschen spr??che man Ei  (AE = Ei)
Es steckt in diesem Diphthong stets ein Anlaut A, niemals aber ein E, wie es
verschiedene Dialekte sprechen.

Lit.: DER KLEINE HEY  EDITION SCHOTT 614  B. Schott's S??hne, Mains

Zu dem Sprachenbaum Niederdeutsch z??hlt auch das Plattdeutsche aus
West/Ostpreu??en, es ist der ??stliche Teil der Sprachgrenze.

Die Schwiegertochter meiner Pflegeeltern stammte aus Pr??kuls (Memel), sie
sprach aber lieber Litauisch mit ihrer Schwester  (also, was nicht f??r
unsere Ohren bestimmt war).

Die Sprachgrenze Plattdeutsch Mecklenburg/Pommern bildet bei Ribnitz die
Recknitz
(Flu??). Es gab auch gelegentlich Streit zwischen Mecklenburg und Pommern

Mit der Zeit verschmelzen unbewu??t anders lautende Klangfarben.
Meine Freundin spricht das Pommern-Platt, es sind geringe Unterschiede
zwischen beiden Sprachen (Mundarten, niemals Dialekte).
Meckl. "De S??nn geiht ??nner", Pommern "De Sunn geiht unner".

Die Sprachwissenschaftlerin Prof. Renate Herrmann-Winter arbeitet an einem
W??rterbuch (Plattdeutsch Pommern), es wird wohl bald erscheinen.

Hinweis: Hans Joachim Gernentz
               (Professor UNI Rostock,
                ich kannte ihn pers??nlich,
                heff oft mit em vertellt)

                Niederdeutsch-gestern und heute

                Beitr??ge zur Sprachsituation in den Nordbezirken
                der DDR in Geschichte und Gegenwart

               Erschienen bei Hinstorff Rostock 1980

Es stimmt mich aber auch gelegentlich traurig, was man heute unserer plattd.
Sprache so andichtet... und wir haben f??r sie gek??mpft!

In Freundschaft.

Hanne

----------

From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch at yahoo.com>
>
Subject: Language varieties

Leve Hanne,

Du schreevst:

Marjalchen mit das jalbe (gelbe) von das Ei (e: i)

Dat is (Oost-)Hoogpr????isch  (villicht 'n Slag oostpr????isch Missingsch), nich
(Oost-)Nedderpr????isch, meen ik. Man den [e:i]-Luud hebbt se beid' gemeen. De
mehrsten Luden gifft 't ook in't Westpr????ische, un daar h????rt dat
mennonitsche "Plautd????tsch" mit to.

Man W????r as ("Margell" >) "Marjall(che(n))" ("Deern") s??nd oostpr????isch un
kaamt uut de baltschen Spraken, bes??nners uut 't Oldpr????ische
(*m??rg??*'Deern', vergl. litausch
*merga*, *mergait??*).

Gr??tens,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 17:55:25 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:55:25 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.095525.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.12.22 (01) [EN]

Ick b??n all wedder dor, ok wenn't ??m de Snaken geiht . . .

R. Herrmann-Winter  Plattdeutsch-hochdeutsches W??rterbuch:
Schnak, Snak m. (das  m  steht da wirklich). 1. Schlange allg. speziell
Ringelnatter, aber auch Kreuzotter, Pl. Schnaken.  - 2. gro??e M??cke: de
Schnaken bieten h??t.
Schnakenkrut n. Gemeiner Wurmfarn, Aspidium filix-mas (L.)

Wossidlo/Teuchert  Mecklenburgisches W??rterbuch (seggt mi mihr tau).
Snak, Pl. -en, Snoek f. Ringelnatter, natrix natrix
Snake Monschr. 1789, S. 1049; Schnahk 1791, S. 338;
Een Scheperknecht . . . . hett all' de Snoek oewerh??ben (d.h. wegbannen)
wullt.
Schimpfwort: Swich, du vordumende snake!'  Redensarten: verleewt as ne Snak;
de hett de Snak b??ten (eine Schwangere); Sort bi Sort, s??d' dei D??wel un
sortierte Poggen un Snoek (as Sinnbild von dei b??sen Seelen); Volksglaube:
Snaken pedden (begatten) dei Aanten (1881) Hagenow/G??lze; de Drak is as ne
Snak,  Waren/Ullrichshusen; Snaken un Addern (Kreuzottern) sind in der
Pferdekrippe eines Bauern, der einen Kobold hat,  Sch??nberg/Grevesm??hlen;
'sede ene snaken' als Arzneibestandteil gegen Aussatz (Rostock. Arzn); man
soll drei Snaken, drei Addern, drei Hucksen (Kr??ten)  v??r de S??nn gripen
und daraus eine Salbe kochen, Waren/Jabel; eine Snak zeigt ein
untergegangenes Schlo?? an,  Waren;  Knabenspiel: Snaken lopen laten,  eine
Leine in Windungen drehen,  Wismar/Gersdorf.
Flurname: Snakenbarg, -borg, -brauk, -br??gg', -busch, -grund, -h????rn,
-koppel, -kul, -lank, -muur, -soll, -start, -togg, -wirel, -wisch.
Zss.: ??uwer-, Eik-, Watersnak. - Mnd. snake.
Snakadder f. wie Snak; Snakenangel  f. Natternzunge, Rostock;
Snakenfell n. Schlangenhaut, als gl??ckbringend betrachtet.
Schlangenzunge soll man lebendig herausrei??en und in die Peitschenkappe
wickeln, denn trecken de Pir f??r dull;  Redensart: dat is ne richtige
Snakentung' , von einer Frau, die Falsches ??ber andere redet; Gemeiner
Natterkopf, echium vulgare E.Kr??ger, Syn.:
blag' Preu??, Sugels-, T??tenblaum.

Na, dat h??rt sick je snaaksch'  (sonderbar) an, nu is naug (gek??rzt).

Ick sl??ngel mi nu weg.

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 22 19:09:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 11:09:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.DEC.2009.110955.0800.>

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 December 2009 - Volume 04
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From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at googlemail.com>
Subject: Umfrage / Sprachatlas

Leve L????d,

schaut doch hier
http://www.philhist.uni-augsburg.de/ada/runde_7/
 mal rein. Die machen Umfragen, um Sprachkarten zu erstellen und suchen
Leute, die mitmachen. Die Ergebnisse der bisherigen Runden sind auch
interessant. Besonders die der sechsten Runde, in der ermittelt wurde,
welche Dialekte sich untereinander als nah bzw. fern empfinden.

Ich hoffe auf rege Teilnahme.

Heiko Evermann

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (02) [DE-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.21 (05) [DE-NDS]
>
> Leve Marcus, danke f??r de intressanten Infos! Vun dat oost- un
> westpreu??ische Platt harr ik al mal so'n poor Bispelen h????rt, de mit
> hoochd????tsche W????r (s??nnerlich Partizipen mit ge-) d??rwussen weern, un harr
> Twievel kregen. De W????r eenfach to subtraheern un den Rest to bekieken, op
> de Idee weer ik nich kamen.
>
Feinen Trick, ne! Allens as Utnahmen wegstrieken, wat de egen Theorie nich
st??tt, un de Rest bewiest denn de Theorie ;-)
Aver is ja man meist dat s??lve as mit dat Hoochd????tsche: Wenn ich mit meinem
Minicar durch die City cruise oder im Browser meine Downloads checke, denn
s??nd ok 'ich', 'mit', 'oder', 'meine' etc. de wichtigen W????r, de uns wiest,
wat dat f??r'n Spraak is. Hoochd????tsch hett en Masse Anglizismen un
Oostpr????isch hett/harr en Masse Hoochd????tschismen. Un j??stso as du bi
Hoochd????tsch ganz ahn Anglizismen utkamen kannst, wenn du dat richtige Thema
nimmst un di en beten M??h giffst, kannst du ok Oostpr????isch ahn
Hoochd????tschismen bruken.

 Ik harr sachs instinktiv annahmen, Reuter harr "vun Pommern bet Nederland"
> exklusive meent, he hett dat avers anschienend inklusive meent -- also dat
> Pommern un Nederland noch dortoh????rt. Dat weer denn wohl dat "politisch
> korrekte" Denken, denn mennig Nederl??nners h????rt dat nich geern; avers
> tominnst deelwies stimmt dat ja.
>
Bi de Nedderlannen hebbt wi twee Saken: Wenn wi na'n Stamboom gaht, denn
sitt Plattd????tsch in D????tschland un Nedersaksisch in de Nedderlannen op'n
s??lven Telgen. Nedersaksisch is na'n Stammboom veel dichter mit Plattd????tsch
verwandt as mit Hollandsch.
Dat lett sik licht wiesen bi en poor Saken, de temlich oold s??nd: To'n
Bispeel de ??mluud bi de W????r H????vd/Haupt/hoovd. Hoochd????tsch un
Nedderlandsch hebbt all beid keen ??mluud, Plattd????tsch un Nedersaksisch
hebbt em. De Isogloss l??ppt von Bunschoten na Ulft. De ??nnerscheed liggt dor
an, dat Ooldsassisch h??bi?? harr, Ooldfranksch aver h??be??. Dat 'i' hett f??r
den ??mluud sorgt. En anner Bispeel s??nd de Verben so as 'he l??ppt'.
Plattd????tsch/Nedersaksisch hebbt en korten Vokal mit ??mluud, Hollandsch hett
en langen Vokal ahn ??mluud ('hij loopt'). De Isogloss l??ppt von Nunspeet na
Ulft. Dr??dd wichtig Bispeel is de Eenheitsplural. L??ppt ok von Bunschoten na
Ulft.

De twete Saak is aver, dat Nedersaksisch veel von dat Hollandsch ??vernahmen
hett un Plattd????tsch veel von Hoochd????tsch. To'n Bispeel sowat as dat
Hollandsche 'jij' f??r 'du', wat sik al bet an de politsche Grenz utbreedt
hett (blot Groningen hett noch 'du' [doe]). Faken s??nd W????r, de dat
Nedersaksisch kennt hett, aver Hollandsch nich, in't Nedersaksisch
utstorven. W????r, de dat Plattd????tsch kennt hett, aver Hoochd????tsch nich,
s??nd in't Plattd????tsch utstorven. Dat Woort 'umtrent' hebbt se fr??her in't
Nedersaksisch, Plattd????tsch un Hollandsch kennt, aver nich in't
Hoochd????tsch. Nedersaksisch warrt dat noch j??mmer bruukt, denn dat Woord
warrt d??r dat Hollandsch st??tt. Plattd????tsch is 'umtrent' utstorven. J??stso
dat Woord 'bubbel' f??r en Blaas. Nedersaksisch is dat bleven, Plattd????tsch
utstorven.
En anner Ding is denn noch de Klangfarv. Plattd????tsch hett faken den Klang
von dat Hoochd????tsche ??vernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'schwart' f??r ??ller 'swart'
oder 'boben' f??r ??ller 'boven'. Nedersaksisch hett fakener den Klang von dat
Hollandsch ??vernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'omtrent' f??r ??ller 'umtrent' oder de
bes??nnere hollandsche Utspraak von dat 'g' oder dat 'sch'.
Un dat dr??dde, wat Nedersaksisch un Plattd????tsch trennt, dat s??nd de
direkten ??vernahmen un Neologismen. Sowat as 'informatie' vs.
'Informatschoon' oder 'Verwalten' vs. 'bestuur' oder 'hulpbron' vs.
'Ressource'.

En nedersaksischen un en plattd????tschen Buurn, de sik ??ver de Bueree
??nnerhollt, hebbt wohrschienlich keen groot Problem mitenanner. Wenn sik
aver en Nedersaksen un en Plattd????tschen ??ver Politik oder Technik
??nnerhollen w??llt, denn warrt dat swoor.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 23 17:03:48 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:03:48 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.090348.0800.>

===========================================
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject. LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]

Hallo Heiko,

ich habe Deinen Vorschlag gleich in die Tat umsetzt und an der 7. Runde
teilgenommen. Der Fragenkomplex k??nnte noch etwas erweitert werden
(Norddeutschland, Meck-Pom). Also, abwarten.

Gr????e aus Schwerin.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 23 18:31:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:31:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (02) [DE]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.103155.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 December 2009 - Volume 02
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.22 (04) [DE-NDS]

 Lieber Heiko, Hanne und Marcus,

danke f??r die tollen Hinweise! Ich habe sofort an der Sprachumfrage
teilgenommen und sage nie wieder was gegen das Platt der Ostpreu??en sagen
:-) Gibt es eigentlich ??fters bez??glich Platt dieses Merkmal, dass Fl??sse
wie die Recknitz oder landschaftliche Gegebenheiten eine Sprachgrenze bilden
(Isogloss! Ha! Wei?? ich seit Neuestem :-))? Zeichnen sich die von Dir,
Marcus, genannten Isoglossen durch irgendwelche ??u??eren Merkmale aus?

Dass diejenigen W??rter, die von der jeweiligen "Hochsprache" gest??tzt
werden, nicht aussterben, ist ein interessantes Ergebnis.
Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden L??nder an
der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
h??rt, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.

Was bedeutet eigentlich 'umtrent'?

Liebe Gr????e!

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Marlou,

Du schriebst:

Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden L??nder an
der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
h??rt, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.

Das finde ich auch, habe auch die selbe Frage.

Und ...

Was bedeutet eigentlich 'umtrent'?

"Ungef??hr". Von dort ist es ins Skandinavische gedrungen, z.B. D??nisch *
omtrent*.

Frohe Weihnachten!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 23 23:06:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:06:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.150632.0800.>

===========================================
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (02) [DE]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 danke f??r die tollen Hinweise! Ich habe sofort an der Sprachumfrage
> teilgenommen und sage nie wieder was gegen das Platt der Ostpreu??en sagen
> :-) Gibt es eigentlich ??fters bez??glich Platt dieses Merkmal, dass Fl??sse
> wie die Recknitz oder landschaftliche Gegebenheiten eine Sprachgrenze bilden
> (Isogloss! Ha! Wei?? ich seit Neuestem :-))?
>
Dat gifft dat fakener. Dat gellt j??mmer denn, wenn de Geografie den Verkehr
twischen de Rebeden st????rt. Dat Saterland to'n Bispeel weer al lang kumplett
Plattd????tsch wesen, wenn dat nich merrnmank in en Moor legen harr. To Foot
kunnst du narms hen un so s??nd de Fresen ??nner sik bleven. Ik kenn dat ok ut
mien egen D??rp. Dat liggt an de Oost. ??ver de Oost gifft dat bi uns keen
Br??gg. Wenn wi na uns Naverd??rp "op de anner Sied Oost" f??hren w??llt, dat 2
km weg is, denn m????t wi meist 20 km f??hren ??ver de n??chste Br??gg.  Dat is
also en temlich groot Hinnernis. Geografie kann aver nich blot trennen, de
kann ok verbinnen. Fr??her weer de Oost noch keen Verkehrshinnernis, dor weer
se noch Verkehrsweg f??r de Scheep. Gauer as mit'n Scheep kunnst dunn nich
v??rankamen. Dor liggt dat wohrschienlich ok an, dat dat Plattd????tsch an de
K??st ??verall temlich ??hnlich is. In't Binnenland, in Westfalen un Oostfalen
gifft dat veel mehr "Fragmentierung".

 Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen durch irgendwelche
> ??u??eren Merkmale aus?
>
Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "??u??ere Merkmale"?

  Dass diejenigen W??rter, die von der jeweiligen "Hochsprache" gest??tzt
> werden, nicht aussterben, ist ein interessantes Ergebnis.
> Niederdeutsch/Nedersaksisch hangelt sich also in jedem der beiden L??nder an
> der dominanten Hochsprache entlang. Ist das nicht ein todsicheres Rezept,
> zum Dialekt zu verkommen? Viel von dem Platt, das man hier in den Medien
> h??rt, ist nicht viel mehr als ein Hochdeutsch mit Tungslag.
>

Dor hest du recht, good f??r de Spraak is dat nich. Aver "Rezept" is nich dat
richtige Woord, dat deit ja n??ms extra. De L????d hoolt sik an dat, wat se
kennt. N??ms, ok nich de modersprakigste Moderspraken-Plattd????tsche von'n
olen un ??llsten Slag, kann vondaag noch sien Alldag "bew??ltigen", ahn dat he
sik mit Hoochd????tsch utenannersetten mutt. Un wenn Minschen j??mmer mit twee
Spraken to doon hebbt, denn r??ddelt sik de Woordbiller so lang torech, bet
dat se op Pass liggen doot. Mein Punkt ist, dass viele Hochdeutsche, die mit
Englisch zu tun haben, gar nicht mehr realisieren, dass manche Wortbilder
gar keinen Sinn machen, was manches Mal komische Seiteneffekte hat. Denn "my
point is" m??sste doch mit "mir geht es darum" ??bersetzt werden, "to realize"
mit "bemerken", "to make sense" mit "sinnvoll sein" und "side effekt" mit
"Nebeneffekt" oder "Nebenwirkung". Ji markt, dat Uteneenholen von de Spraken
is nich so licht ;-)

Dat gifft aver en Gegenrezept! Wi bruukt en "Gegen??ffentlichkeit" to de
hoochd????tsche ??ffentlichkeit. Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattd????tsch
Feernsehsenner geven dee, denn dee de Gr??ninger ok mal Sleswigsch h????rn, de
V??rpommer Westf????lsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De L????d deen mehr
plattd????tsche W????r kennenlehren un uttuuschen. Ganz bil??tten dee de Spraak
denn wedder en beten mehr tohoopwassen.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 04:15:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:15:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <WED.23.DEC.2009.201514.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 23 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]

Leve Marcus,


 Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen
> durch irgendwelche ??u??eren Merkmale aus?
>
> Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "??u??ere Merkmale"?
>

Ik meen, wat dat landschapliche Grenzen s??nd. Op de Koort s??ht dat teemlich
liekf????rmig ut, mit en grotes Wooldrebett dormang. Orr d??r wat is de Wessel
in de Spraakfoorms s??ss tostannkamen? Politische Grenzen? Riekwiet vun de
groten kulturellen Zentren?


 Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattd????tsch Feernsehsenner geven
> dee, denn dee de Gr??ninger ok mal Sleswigsch h????rn, de
> V??rpommer Westf????lsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De L????d
> deen mehr plattd????tsche W????r kennenlehren un uttuuschen.
> Ganz bil??tten dee de Spraak denn wedder en beten mehr
> tohoopwassen.
>

Bi den plattd????tschen Kiekschappkanaal b??n ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi us
nich to fr??h: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un Wedderhalen vun
uurole Ohnsorg-St??cken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr hest Du al
wat nauere Plaans daf??r in'n Achterkopp...?

Hartlich!

Marlou

----------

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (01) [NDS]

Gouen dag, siidl??nners,

Am 22.12.2009, 20:09 Uhr, scraif Marcus Buck:

Bi de Nedderlannen hebbt wi twee Saken: Wenn wi na'n Stamboom gaht, denn
sitt Plattd????tsch in D????tschland un Nedersaksisch in de Nedderlannen op'n
s??lven Telgen. Nedersaksisch is na'n Stammboom veel dichter mit Plattd????tsch
verwandt as mit Hollandsch. Dat lett sik licht wiesen bi en poor Saken, de
temlich oold s??nd: To'n Bispeel de ??mluud bi de W????r H????vd/Haupt/hoovd

Biifal! Marcus,

Dat un wat d??rnau folgede, l??cht mi heylemaul in, un is miinsachtens en
goude tohaupefating van de taalverwantskup sassesk - nidrsaskisk-nidrlandsk.
Un dat is gout, dat dat hiir m??l sau kl??r segt wert.

Ik k??n no wiidergaun un seggen: dat Standard-Nederlands is mer Nidrd????dsk
(tominnest Nidrfrankisk) dan dat, wat h??digendags no van prauteden
Platd????dsk hiir un d??r ??ewrig bliiwen is. Doch de verkweyre nederlandse
scriifwiis makt dat baule unkentlik??? ;-). Me kan't naudri??gelig nig ??nnern,
??l doch st??nne et bieter ??m de platd????dske taal, wan Standard-Nederlands
uuse daksprauke wi??n w??re un nig dat Standard('haug')d????dsk!

Blaut an eyn/twey p??nten, achtede Marcus, kan ik di g??r nig folgen:

En anner Ding is denn noch de Klangfarv. Plattd????tsch hett faken den Klang
von dat Hoochd????tsche ??vernahmen, to'n Bispeel 'schwart' f??r ??ller 'swart'
oder 'boben' f??r ??ller 'boven'.

Ik haule 'r tiigen: d??r, w??r h??de in plat 'schwart' IPA [??va:rt] stats
'swart' un 'boben' stats 'boven/buawen' segt wert, is dat nig mer
plat(=sassesk), man half haugd????dsk. (??s du scrifst???, dat is van't
Haugd????dske ????wernuomen.)

Nedersaksisch hett fakener den Klang von dat Hollandsch ??vernahmen, to'n
Bispeel 'omtrent' f??r ??ller 'umtrent' oder de bes??nnere hollandsche Utspraak
von dat 'g' oder dat 'sch'.

'omtrent' vs. 'umtrent' (w??r wual korrekter '??mmetrent'?) - jau. Mer de
??bes??nnere hollandsche Utspraak van dat 'g' oder dat 'sch' - meynt is je
wual dat spirantiske/riewene 'g' IPA [??/??/x] und dat s-ch [sx] - is nig
bes??nners hollantsk, man de urspr??nklike uutsprauke in plat (hente't 15./16.
jhdt. tominnest) un j??mmers no de uutsprauke in'm westf??lsken twig van
h??digem plat=sassisk.

Am 24.12.2009, scraif Marcus:

De L????d hoolt sik an dat, wat se kennt. N??ms, ok nich de modersprakigste
Moderspraken-Plattd????tsche von'n olen un ??llsten Slag, kann vondaag noch
sien Alldag "bew??ltigen", ahn dat he sik mit Hoochd????tsch utenannersetten
mutt. Un wenn Minschen j??mmer mit twee Spraken to doon hebbt, denn r??ddelt
sik de Woordbiller so lang torech, bet dat se op Pass liggen doot.

Sau is dat wual. Un dat heyt to enne dacht, dat Plat baule daude is,
tominnest blaut no en klankfarwe van Standartd????dsk in en p??r regiounen im
noorden. Anners k??n dat blaut kuomen, wan dat h????dige Plat wier to de eygen
wuordeln fiinen w??rde: de nidrd????dske traditsjoun vam middel??ller (mnd.).
Man d??rtou bruukede et noug (bellede) l????e, dey sik d??rmet befaten d??en, un
voruutsettingen im scoulwi??sen (plichtfak Sassisk in Nordd????dsklant),
f??ddernge etc., ??mme dat sik sau wat ??s 'ne "hauge" sprauklike subkultur f??r
Sassisk belden k????ne.

Sau lank ??s et dat lesdere nich gift, k??ent wi taalverbeseylde/waansinnige
intellektuelle "gr??lsh??ider" van't Sassisk lickers wat doun, dat de
taalweytenskuplike un didaktisken voruutsettingen d??rf??r plegt un entwickelt
werden.

 Mein Punkt ist, dass viele Hochdeutsche, die mit Englisch zu tun haben, gar
nicht mehr realisieren, dass manche Wortbilder gar keinen Sinn machen, ??? Dat
gifft aver en Gegenrezept! Wi bruukt en "Gegen??ffentlichkeit" to de
hoochd????tsche ??ffentlichkeit. Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattd????tsch
Feernsehsenner geven dee, denn dee de Gr??ninger ok mal Sleswigsch h????rn, de
V??rpommer Westf????lsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De L????d deen mehr
plattd????tsche W????r kennenlehren un uttuuschen. Ganz bil??tten dee de Spraak
denn wedder en beten mehr tohoopwassen.

??lsau w??r dat dan wual. Dat geyt in de liike richting ??s wat ik met "hauge"
platkultur meyne.
Met echt-westf??lsken ??Goutgaun!??
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??gge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language varieties

Leve L????d',


Klaar hebbt de Dialekten in de Oostnedderlannen hollandsch Inwarken un de
Dialekten in Noordd????tschland hebbt d????tsch Inwarken. Liekers h????rt se
altohoop na de s??lvige neddersassische Spraak to, liek as kurdsche Dialekten
in de T??rkee, Iraak, Syrien un???n Iraan t??rksch, araabsch un peerssch
Inwarken hebbt, de dat Verstahn ??ver Grenzen ???n b??ten swarer maakt, un de
Schrievwies??? ook mengeleert latiensch un araabsch is.


Man na mien Versch????l is dat keen Grund, dat de Spraak un dat Spr??kervolk in
St??cken hackt wardt. Nich verg??ten: ???Divide and conquer??? is wunnen Sp????l.
Mit Fr??ndschupp, Br??derschupp un *exposure* ??ver Grenzen lehrt de Minschen
de Dialekten mit fr??mdlandsch Inwarken und Schrievwies??? kennen. So swaar is
dat nich, wenn Will un M??g??? mitsp????lt, un so dummerhaftig s??nd de Minschen
nich, dat se dat mit de Tied nich berieten k??nt. Dat Tohoopkamen starkt de
Spraak; dat Tweihacken maakt ??hr week un dood.


Us Jochen (Joachim) sien Westf??lsch is f??r Noordneddersassen ook nicht v????l
lichtfardiger to verstahn as de (westf??lschen) Dialekten vun S????ddrenthe un
Twente g??ntsieds de Grenz, or de Dialekten vun Oostfreesland un ???t Emsland
(D????tschland) mit j??m ??hr freessch un nedderlandsch Inwarken, or de
Oostdialekten mit j??m ??hr slaawsch un baltsch Inwarken. Wenn de Will daar
is, denn k??nt wi amenn sogaar vun w??gen 'n internatschonale Schrievwies' up
een St??ck kamen. Man dat geiht nich, so lang de Minschen "Platt" nich as 'n
egenst??nnige Spraak ankieken doot, wenn se wieder meent, dat is man bloots
'n d????tsche Dialektgrupp.


Mien besten W??nschen to???t Wiehnachtsfest!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:35:37 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:35:37 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.24 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063537.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.11.22 (06) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I am often asked to explain how to reach and use our archives. So here
> goes, to all of you to preempt individual responses.
>       * Go to
>         http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html .
>       * Click on "Search the archives".
>       * Click on the box next to "Substring search" to make a check
>         mark appear. (This will cause the search engine to search
>         texts of messages rather than only subject lines.)
>       * Enter your search terms. (If you are looking for a phrase,
>         write it in quotation marks to keep the string of words
>         together.)
>       * Click on the button entitled "Start the search".
> Please keep these instructions for later reference.

Ron,

I keep meaning to bring up: surely as Lowlands-L is a discussion group,
the archives should be the first thing you find to click on on the site?

When I visit the site, I find that link buried rather deep, considering
its importance. I used to have trouble finding the archives, though I've
got used to the idea that they're not as easy to find as you'd expect.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Resources

Thanks, Sandy. Point well taken.

I'll try and see if I can make the link more prominent on our main page,
possibly this weekend.

Happy holidays!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:38:06 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:38:06 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.24 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063806.0800.>

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From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: Karstfeest

Moi l??eglaanders

Vanuut ???t Ogeveine een gezegend karstfeest.

Hieronder een karstverhaal uut vrogger tieden

Arend Victorie

???t Ogeveine

Drenthe

Nederlaand.

De v??urspelling in de karstnacht.

Op midder-karstnacht w??rde der verteld dat de dieren kunt praoten.

Juust as de klokke twaalf ure zal slaon verteld zij menaar vrumde dinger.

Mienigiene, wel neisgierig was, perb??erde in die nacht te vern??men wat ???t
vee onder menaar te vertellen had. En mienigien h??urde dan dinger die hij ???t
liefste nooit eh??ur hadde.

Zo was der ok ies een boer die in de karstnacht naor zien stal gung umme
zien vee an te h??uren. Hij gung hiel veurzichtig de stal in, verschuulde
zich in een nis en wachte t??t de klokke middernacht anw??es. Zien jaank umme
te weten war der komend jaor gebeuren zal, was zo groot, dat hij de
verzuuking niet had kunnen weerstaon en een plekkie  vlakbij koe en peerd
z??cht, umme ???t gesprek of te luustern. Stief van de zenings wachte hij of.
En t??t zien verbaozing klunk daor iniens de stemme van zien peerd in de
stille en bedomte stal. ???Der is sinds veurig karstmis alweer een jaor
veubij???. Heurde hij zien peerd zeggen. ???Ja???, zee de koe, ???t Was een good
jaor, ???t komend jaor liekt niet zo best.??? ???Nee,???t benauwt mij arg??? en ???t
peerd zuchte, ???t benauwt mij arg???. ???Mij ok???, was ???t weerwoord van de koe,
???mar veur oe is ???t veul arger???.  ???Och???, zee ???t peerd, ???de boer was altied zo
goed veur mij en dan te bedeinken, dat ik hum z??lf mut wegbrengen???. ???Dat is
ok arg en ie ontkoomt der niet an???, zee de koe. ???Nee???, zuchte ???t peerd,
???daor ontkoom ik niet an. Mar ???t is nog gien mei???. De karkklokke had zien
twaalf slagen edaone en koe en peerd stunden weer net zo onneuzel te kieken
as toen de boer stiekem de stal was binnen-ekomen??????t Ende van zien leven???..
Lag dat niet verb??rgen in de weinige woorden deur de beide dieren ewisseld?
Hij gung langzem deur de schuure en z??cht zien beddest??e weer op umme te
gaon slaopen. Mar hoe hij ok keerde en wende, hij kun de slaop niet te
pakken kriegen. Zien vrouwe begreep der niks van en vreug hum naor de reden
van zien onr??st. N??rs gaf hij te kennen dat zij stille mus weden. De dagen
gungen traog veurbij en de boer zun op een meniere umme an ???t noodlot dat
hij veur zuch zag, te ontkomen. Hij besleut ten ende raod zien peerd, wel
hum altied goed ediend had, te verkopen, umme teminste een diel van zien
onr??st kwiet te raken. ???t Peerd verkocht hij an een boer, die een hiel ende
varder weg woonde, zodat der gien kaans zul weden, dat ???t hum naor zien
groeve kun brengen. Hij kochte een aander peerd weer, mar hij miste zien
olde peerd bij al ???t wark. Zien naober w??rde ziek en kwam te verstarven en
zien boerderije w??rde an een aander verhuurd. Die aander was de boer an wie
hij zien peerd har verkocht!... Toen mei in ???t laand kwam, tr??k de neie
huurder in de naoburige woning. Daordeur aoverv??l de boer een grote aangst
en hij duurde zien huus niet uut, umdat hij bange was een ongelok te kriegen
en te starven. Waor hij buutenshuus bange veur was dat aoverkwaamp hum in
zien eigen huus. Hij vol deur ???t  balkenslob, toen hij heui naor beneden
gooide en brak zien nekke. En zien eigen peerd, now van zien  naober, tr??k
de wagen, waormit hij naor zien groeve ebracht w??rde???

Bron Dreinse Volksoaverleverings J. H. Bermans-Beins 1933

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 14:39:56 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 06:39:56 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.063956.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (04) [DE-NDS]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.23 (03) [DE-NDS]
>
> Leve Marcus,
>
>
>    Zeichnen sich die von Dir, Marcus, genannten Isoglossen
>    durch irgendwelche ??u??eren Merkmale aus?
>
>    Dor weet ik nu nich, wat du dor mit meenst, mit "??u??ere Merkmale"?
>
>
> Ik meen, wat dat landschapliche Grenzen s??nd. Op de Koort s??ht dat teemlich
> liekf????rmig ut, mit en grotes Wooldrebett dormang. Orr d??r wat is de Wessel
> in de Spraakfoorms s??ss tostannkamen? Politische Grenzen? Riekwiet vun de
> groten kulturellen Zentren?
>
>  De Isogloss l??ppt groff de Iessel (IJssel) lang, denn d??r de Veluwe (dat
Wooldrebeed) un denn an de Eem bet an dat Iesselmeer. Bi Eem un Iessel weet
ik dat nich, aver de Veluwe as Haidrebeed hett op jeden Fall den Verkehr
behinnert. De Veluwe trennt aver West-Veluws un Oost-Veluws un West-Veluws
is liekers Nedersaksisch (ok wenn dat al en d????dlich weniger Nedersaksischen
Charakter as de Oost-Veluwe hett). Dor alleen kann dat also nich an liggen.
Von politische Grenzen weet ik ok nix. Ik gl????v dat nich. Ik heff mi mit
disse Fraag na de Westgrenz al veel besch??ftigt un mi pers??nlich d??cht, dat
de wichtigste Grund worraftig de Stammgrenz Sassen/Franken is. De Franken
hebbt sik den Rhien dal utbreedt un de Sassen hebbt sik von Oosten her
utbreedt. So ??m un bi 800 mutt dat wesen hebben, dat se sik in de Veluwe
drapen hebbt. De Spraak weer temlich verscheden, beid Spraken harrn sik ja
utbreedt un harrn sik in Rebeden billt, de wied vonenanner af weren. Un ok
wenn veel von disse ??nnerscheden sik nu utgleken hebbt, is dat doch liekers
noch to marken.


>    Wenn dat to'n Bispeel en plattd????tsch Feernsehsenner geven
>    dee, denn dee de Gr??ninger ok mal Sleswigsch h????rn, de
>    V??rpommer Westf????lsch, de Oostfrees Prignitzisch. De L????d
>    deen mehr plattd????tsche W????r kennenlehren un uttuuschen.
>    Ganz bil??tten dee de Spraak denn wedder en beten mehr
>    tohoopwassen.
>
>
> Bi den plattd????tschen Kiekschappkanaal b??n ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi us
> nich to fr??h: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un Wedderhalen vun
> uurole Ohnsorg-St??cken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr hest Du al
> wat nauere Plaans daf??r in'n Achterkopp...?
>
>  Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen v??rantobringen.
Wenn di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr ??ver schrieven, aver vondaag
heff ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en l??ngern Text, wenn ik eerst
anfang.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 24 18:54:46 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 10:54:46 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.105446.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 04
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]

Och doch, schreib doch mal, wenn Du wieder Zeit hast! Vielleicht f??llt uns
allen gemeinsam was ein, was man bewegen k??nnte. Ich sag jetzt auch tsch????,
muss Strohsterne in Seidenkiefer stecken... :-)

Frohe und gesegnete Weihnachten!

Marlou
From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

>

Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen v??rantobringen. Wenn
di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr ??ver schrieven, aver vondaag heff
ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en l??ngern Text, wenn ik eerst anfang.

----------

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.24 (04) [NDS]

An'n 24.12.2009, 15:38 Uhr, scraif Arend Victorie:

Hij vol deur ???t balkenslob, toen hij heui naor beneden gooide en brak zien
nekke. En zien eigen peerd, now van zien naober, tr??k de wagen, waormit hij
naor zien groeve ebracht w??rde???

Jau, sau mosse dat kuomen. S??s w??r't nine voorspelling (voruutsegge) wi??n???

Dank sii Ju, leewe Arend, f??r de goue karstverhaal (kerstfestvertelsel) uut
de Dreentske Volks??ewerleverings!

Dat vertelsel was vergn??iglik. Un auk spannend ??s en krimi, [h]wou de
'vorspelling' dan wual intri??[d]en d??e. Blaut de nederlandse 'spelling'
maakt mi verdreet, ??s ik auk j??st in "Language varieties" scriewen [sxri??vn]
hadde???
Auk hew'ik nig ruutfuunen, wat dat 'lob' of 'slob' van den balken(s) nowwe
is (een gat, lek?), d??r de Buur d??rfol un n?? unnen gooide (st??dde?, is
'gooien' = werpen auk passiv of reflexiv?), k??ent Ji d??r wiiderhelpen?

Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigj??r (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[??])
for Ji un ??lle LL-kornuten!
Met echt-westf??lsken ??Goutgaun!??
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??gge => Berlin-Pankow

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 01:56:01 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:56:01 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.24.DEC.2009.175601.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 05
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [NDS]

Feggelkorrektur:
-----------------
[x] stats [??] in d??ssen fal:

Am 24.12.2009, 19:54 Uhr, hew'ik scriewen:

Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigj??r (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[??])

D??rbii is mi en tipfeggel ??nnerloupen, richtig mot dat siin:
??Eeneweg, scoine Wignachten un een gouet Nigj??r (jewiilen met den riiwe-g
[x])??   <==

Uutlutende lut de boukstawe ???g??? => IPA [x] = stimlaus riewen, un achtern "i"
an'n vorderguumen beldet (voiceless _velar_ fricative). In Westf??lsk  ??s
tomeyst in Plat un nordd????dske sprekwiis.

De annere g-riifluut => IPA [??] = stimhaftig riewen (voiced velar
fricative), is for dat "g" in'n anluut un t??sken annere klingers (vokale),
t. b. 'gaun' ndl. 'gaan', 'seggen'.

Sau is dat wual auk in Nederlands.

Met echt-westf??lsken ??Goutgaun!??
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??gge => Berlin-Pankow

----------

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]

Leve Marlou, leve Marcus,

>> Bi den plattd????tschen Kiekschappkanaal b??n ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi
>> us nich to fr??h: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un
Wedderhalen
>> vun uurole Ohnsorg-St??cken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr
hest
>> Du al wat nauere Plaans daf??r in'n Achterkopp...?
>>
> Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen v??rantobringen.
Wenn
> di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr ??ver schrieven, aver vondaag
heff
> ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en l??ngern Text, wenn ik eerst
anfang.
Also in de Tiet vun youtube bruukt een ja blots noch en beten Tiet un
en Camcorder. Un dat is ja noog, wenn dat j??mmers blots en halvig
Stunn in en Maand is. Denn n????mt wi dat "de Kiekschappkanaal" un maakt
eenfach mal wat.

Heiko

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 19:45:11 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:45:11 -0800
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.12.25 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.114511.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 01
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: victorie.a <victorie.a at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (04) [DE-NDS]

Moi Joachim,



Ik zal perbeern umme ???t uut te leggen:



De???Balkenslob??? waor de buur d??rful is: Der bodenluke im heustock. Im
heustock lag das heu auf einem meist h??lzernen Rost etwa 40 cm ??ber dem
Boden.



Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 19:47:02 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:47:02 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.114702.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 24 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]

From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de <mailto:heiko.evermann at gmx.de>

 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (03) [NDS]
>
> Leve Marlou, leve Marcus,
>
> >> Bi den plattd????tschen Kiekschappkanaal b??n ik foort mit bi! Man freut wi
> >> us nich to fr??h: Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt un
> Wedderhalen
> >> vun uurole Ohnsorg-St??cken. ("Unsere Werbekunden wollen das so.") Orr
> hest
> >> Du al wat nauere Plaans daf??r in'n Achterkopp...?
> >>
> > Ideen heff ik noog, mi fehlt blot de Macht, mien Ideen v??rantobringen.
> Wenn
> > di dat intresseert, kann ik dor noch mehr ??ver schrieven, aver vondaag
> heff
> > ik dor nu keen Tied mehr to ;-) Warrt en l??ngern Text, wenn ik eerst
> anfang.
> Also in de Tiet vun youtube bruukt een ja blots noch en beten Tiet un
> en Camcorder. Un dat is ja noog, wenn dat j??mmers blots en halvig
> Stunn in en Maand is. Denn n????mt wi dat "de Kiekschappkanaal" un maakt
> eenfach mal wat.
>
> Heiko
>

Dat is op jeden Fall eerstmal en gode Idee ??m to wiesen, dat een ??verhoop in
de Laag is en intressant Programm to maken!

Aver de Grundidee von mien "plattd????tsch Feernsehn" is, dat wi de
Konsum-Logistik ??nnert. Opstunns is dat so, dat elkeen, de Plattd????tsch
hebben will, sik dat _halen_ mutt. He mutt aktiv s??ken. Un aktiv s??ken doot
man de L????d, de sik "bewusst" mit de Spraak befaten doot. Un dat is man en
temlich l??tte Tall L????d. Mit en egen Senner warrt dat ??nnert. De L????d m????t
sik nix mehr _halen_, dat warrt _br??cht_. Elkeen kriggt Plattd????tsch in sien
egen Huus levert. N??ms mutt dor wat bes??nners f??r doon. So kriggst du ok de
L????d, de sik nich bewusst mit de Spraak befaten doot.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 25 21:11:30 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:11:30 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.131130.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 03
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (02) [DE-NDS]

Hm, hmmm, leve Markus, also bi de Utwahl vun TV-Senners vundaag is dat gor
nich wiss, dat mennig L?? dat unwillk??rlich wohrnehmt, wenn een niege Sender
tok??mmt! Dat gifft ja al Nischen-Kanaals, un de w??llt s??cht ween. Un mehr as
en Nischenkanaal w????r so'n pd. Senner toeerst ok nich ween. Un so good dat
weer, so'n Kanaal to hebben -- da kann veel scheeplopen, s??nnerlich mit de
L??, de dat maakt. Un dat kost Geld. Un so'n Medium as TV hett nich mehr
allto veel Tokumst. Din Grundgedank, Marcus, de "Konsum-Logistik to ??nnern",
de stimmt 100%. Mal sehn: Wat warrt de L?? opdr??ngt, wat kennt jedereen, wat
is in all Medien togliek pr??sent? Reklaam. De w??rklich coolen Reklaam-Spots
maakt in Nullkommanix de Runn d??r alle Medien, mit Gl??ck sogor weltwied.
Nat????rlich kannst dat nich betahlen. Dat Allerbest weer, wenn jichenseen
Produkt en 1 A Reklaamspot *op Platt *dreihn w????r, t.B. wieldat Platt en
godes Image hett (jung!!!!) orr witzig is. Dat mutt toeerst gor n??ms
verstahn, dat langt, dat Platt de Pr??senz un -- villicht -- Kultstatus
winnt. De wenigsten L?? bi us verstaht ja ingelsche Reklaam, liekers wirkt se
-- villicht j??st dorwegen ;-) Sowat kunn en D??renapener f??r Platt ween. Da
k??mmt veel op Personen an, d??cht mi. L??, de an de richtigen Steden sitt.
K????nt wi da wat bi doon?

Hartlich!

Marlou

  From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2009.12.24 (05) [DE-NDS]

 Aver de Grundidee von mien "plattd????tsch Feernsehn" is, dat wi de
Konsum-Logistik ??nnert. Opstunns is dat so, dat elkeen, de Plattd????tsch
hebben will, sik dat _halen_ mutt. He mutt aktiv s??ken. Un aktiv s??ken doot
man de L????d, de sik "bewusst" mit de Spraak befaten doot. Un dat is man en
temlich l??tte Tall L????d. Mit en egen Senner warrt dat ??nnert. De L????d m????t
sik nix mehr _halen_, dat warrt _br??cht_. Elkeen kriggt Plattd????tsch in sien
egen Huus levert. N??ms mutt dor wat bes??nners f??r doon. So kriggst du ok de
L????d, de sik nich bewusst mit de Spraak befaten doot.

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 00:08:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:08:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.160814.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (03) [DE-NDS]

Liebe Lowlanders,

ausgehend von meinen Erfahrungen, die ich als freie Mitarbeiterin vor der
Wende
beim Landessender Schwerin und nach der Wende beim NDR1 Radio MV gemacht
habe, mu?? ich allerdings bedenken wie "blau??ugig" ihr die hochgespielte
Sache angeht Die Praxis ist nicht leicht.
Alles mu?? gr??ndlich von A-Z durchdacht sein. Welche Themen, keinen Abklatsch
von anderen Sendungen, Niveau, Sendequalit??t, Bild- und Tonqualit??t, wie
sind die Sprecher, Sprecher mal austauschen, wie sprechen sie, also
Aussprache, Nuscheln, kann man noch besser sein als die Profis,
Programmgestaltung, Dramaturgie, Kosten, Arbeitsaufwand, GEMA nicht zu
vergessen.
Wie kann man H??rer begeistern und gewinnen, bestehende Medien werden mit
euch wetteifern, treue H??rer bisheriger Medien werden vielleicht mal
Stipp-Visite machen, aber wie lange...
K??nnt ihr diese zus??tzliche Arbeit neben Hauptberuf auf die Dauer
durchstehen.
Marlou du hest doch nu all sov??l ??m de Uhrn.
Starten ist gut, aber *Durchhalten.*
M.E. ist es viel wichtiger unmittelbar mehr f??r die Erhaltung/Belebung
unserer
Sprache zu tun, Umwege helfen auch nicht weiter. Und es tut sich ja schon
soviel. Vorhandenes besser nutzen.

Haben wir schon die Festlegungen vergessen: *10 Jahre Sprachen-Charta in
Deutschland: Praxis und Perspektiven Schwerin 14. und 15. Mai 2009.*
Hier begegneten sich Pommeraner und Westfalen,  Mecklenburger und
Niedersachsen. Niederl??nder und D??nen, auch Sorben u.v.a..

Wir m??ssen uns mehr auf das globale Denken besinnen und statt sich auf
Grenzen innerhalb einer gro??en Sprachgruppe sollten wir
Grenzen/Abgrenzen/Mauer nicht vertiefen. Eigentlich verschmelzen an
regionalen Grenzen die Sprachen wie z.B. Vorpommern/Mecklenburg, und viele
hiesige Plattdeutsche kennen nicht mal die Grenze (Recknitz).
Ich habe seit 1978 als Entertainer (Niederdeutsch mit Berufsausweis, auch
VHS) viele  St??dte, D??rfer, Nester bespielt. Wir waren ein Ensemble
mit professioneller
Besetzung wie S??ngerin, Gitarrist, Treckfiedel und Sprecher. Wir haben
Erfahrungen gesammelt und wissen hier bestens Bescheid.
Ich bin weiterhin f??r unser Niederdeutsch (ehrenamtlich) unterwegs.

Das heutige vielseitige Kulturangebot verdr??ngt  leider auch teilweise das
Niederdeutsche.

Gr????e.
Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 05:51:44 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 21:51:44 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <FRI.25.DEC.2009.215144.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 25 December 2009 - Volume 05
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at t-online.de>

 Liebe Lowlanders,
>  ausgehend von meinen Erfahrungen, die ich als freie Mitarbeiterin vor der
> Wende
> beim Landessender Schwerin und nach der Wende beim NDR1 Radio MV gemacht
> habe, mu?? ich allerdings bedenken wie "blau??ugig" ihr die hochgespielte
> Sache angeht Die Praxis ist nicht leicht.
> Alles mu?? gr??ndlich von A-Z durchdacht sein. Welche Themen, keinen
> Abklatsch von anderen Sendungen, Niveau, Sendequalit??t, Bild- und
> Tonqualit??t, wie sind die Sprecher, Sprecher mal austauschen, wie sprechen
> sie, also Aussprache, Nuscheln, kann man noch besser sein als die Profis,
> Programmgestaltung, Dramaturgie, Kosten, Arbeitsaufwand, GEMA nicht zu
> vergessen.
> Wie kann man H??rer begeistern und gewinnen, bestehende Medien werden mit
> euch wetteifern, treue H??rer bisheriger Medien werden vielleicht mal
> Stipp-Visite machen, aber wie lange...
> K??nnt ihr diese zus??tzliche Arbeit neben Hauptberuf auf die Dauer
> durchstehen.
>
Wat heet denn "blau??ugig"? Betnuto maakt wi uns ja blot en poor Gedanken.
Wenn wi uns en Senneplatz op en Satelliten k??pen deen (k??st so bi 700.000
Euro, wenn ik dat richtig weet) un uns denn ??verleggen deen, wat wi dor
sennen w??llt, dor kannst du denn seggen, dat is blau??ugig. Aver en poor op
en Mailing-List uttuuscht Gedanken s??nd nich mehr as dat: Gedanken. Ik gl????v
dor s??lvst nich an, dat dor wat von warrt. En Senner, de ok wat d??ggt,
bruukt en Budget in de Gr??ttenordnung von 100 Millionen Euro. Dor warrt nix
von. Liekers is dat _n??dig_, wenn wi Plattd????tsch bewohren w??llt!

Ik gl????v, dat is wiss, dat "die bisherigen Bem??hungen intensivieren" nich
utreckt. De bisherigen Bem??hungen s??nd eenfach blot "Doodplegen". So as en
olen Minschen, de in't Heim kummt. De kriggt noch Eten, warrt wuschen, all
dree Weken kaamt de Kinner di bes??ken. Dat reckt ??m de Person an't Leven to
hollen un tominnst en l??tt beten W??rde to wohren. Aver dat b??ddt keen
Perspektive mehr. Keen Tokumst, op de een sik freien kann, op de een sien
H??pen setten kann.

Wenn Plattd????tsch wedder leven schall un opbl??hn, denn m????t wi blau??ugig
wesen, driest wesen, denn m????t wi grote Saken angahn un nich bang wesen, dat
wi dor bi op de Nees fallt. Wi m????t in Rebeden gahn, in de Plattd????tsch
v??rdem noch nich tohuus weer. Wi m????t Saken utproberen. Welk Saken warrt
denn j??mmerlich kreperen un welk annere Saken warrt Spood hebben.

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

> Hm, hmmm, leve Markus, also bi de Utwahl vun TV-Senners vundaag is dat gor
> nich wiss, dat mennig L?? dat unwillk??rlich wohrnehmt, wenn een niege Sender
> tok??mmt! Dat gifft ja al Nischen-Kanaals, un de w??llt s??cht ween. Un mehr as
> en Nischenkanaal w????r so'n pd. Senner toeerst ok nich ween.
>
Dat grote Problem f??r de Nischensenners is, dat de n??ms kennt. Un wat n??ms
kennt, dat warrt ok nich s??cht un nich funnen. Ik nehm an, wenn dat eerstmal
en plattd????tschen Senner gifft, denn kummt dat in Noordd????tschland ok
temlich groot in de Press. Un wenn de L????d eerst weet, dat de Senner dor is,
denn k????nt se em ok finnen. As 1999 op mal de Champions League op tm3 lopen
is, hett dat ok nich lang duurt un de L????d w??ssen, wo se tm3 finnen kunnen.

Dat geiht v??r allen ??m den Opwand, de to drieven is, dat een Plattd????tsch
op'n Bildschirm kriggt.  Wenn wi dorvon utgaht, dat de Senner al
inprogrammeert is, denn is de Opwand: Sik op't Sofa setten. Feernseher
inschalten. Op dat richtige Programm schalten. Geneten.

Bi en YouTube-Kanal: In't Internett gahn. Dor hest du al 30% von de L????d
verloren, all de keen Internett hebbt. De Reekner steiht meistens nich in'e
Stuuv. De steiht faken in't B??ro oder annerwegens. Gem??tlichen Avend kannst
so nich hebben. Hest al wedder H??mpel Minschen verloren.  Dat
Internett-Konsumverhollen is sounso ganz anners as dat TV-Konsumverhollen.
In't Feernsehn hett de Tagesschau Spood. Wenn dat Internett al v??r dat
Feernsehn dor wesen weer, denn harr dat in't Internett en Format so as de
Tagesschau nienich geven. 15 Minuten lang kriggst du seriell Kraam to h??ren,
de di faken gornich intresseert. Ut Internett-Sicht en Witz.

> Un so good dat weer, so'n Kanaal to hebben -- da kann veel scheeplopen,
> s??nnerlich mit de L??, de dat maakt.
>
Du hest recht, dor kann veel scheeflopen.  Aver de richtigen L????d to finnen,
dat Problem lett sik in't V??rut nich l??sen. Dat lett sik eerst l??sen, wenn
de Senner al beslaten Saak is.

> Un dat kost Geld.
>
Dor hest du recht. Un dat is ok dat grote Problem bi de Saak. En Problem,
dat wi temlich wohrschienlich nich l??sen k????nt. Ik gl????v nich, dat wi noch
en plattd????tschen Feernsehsenner beleven warrt. Dor b??n ik pessimistisch.
Aver wi k????nt uns ja liekers dor ??ver Gedanken maken! Eerstmal de Fraag:
Woveel k??st en Feernsehsenner? To'n Vergliek: Phoenix hett en Etat von 35
Millionen Euro. De Ki.Ka von 60 Millionen. Televisi?? de Catalunya hett 1999
158 Millionen kregen (aktuelle Tallen weet ik nich).  De walisisch Senner
Sianel Pedwar Cymru hett en Etat von 143 Millionen. F??r en Vullprogramm mit
enigermaten Qualit??t s??nd also so bi 100 Millionen n??dig. Du kannst ok en
Vullprogramm mit 10 Millionen bedrieven, aver veel Qualit??t kannst denn nich
verwachten.

> Un so'n Medium as TV hett nich mehr allto veel Tokumst.
>
Jojo, ik kenn de Ideen von de Trendforschers, de seggt, dat de Tokumst von
all Content in "on demand" liggt, in individualisierten Medienangeboten etc.
pp. In Tokumst l??ppt allens ??ver't Internett. Un recht hebbt se
wohrschienlich. Aver de Weg is noch lang. De TV-Branche markt dor noch nix
von, dat de Users in't Internett afwannert. Ok in 10 Johr warrt dat noch
Feernsehn geven. Un wohrschienlich ok noch in 50 un in 100 Johr. Dat
Kabelnett gifft dat denn al lang nich mehr. Feernsehn l??ppt denn
wohrschienlich all ??ver't Internett. Aver TV is dat liekers noch. En Format
so as DSDS l??ppt blot, wenn Millionen Minschen to de s??lve Tied dat s??lve to
sehn kriegt. DSDS gifft dat in 100 Johr gewiss nich mehr, aver liekers gifft
dat Formate, de blot live Sinn maakt (Football!). Op wat f??r'n Plattform dat
denn l??ppt, dat is blot en technische Fraag.

Will ik also man anfangen to vertellen, wat ik mi so v??rstell bi en
plattd????tschen Feernsehsenner. Toeerst mal: keen "Eenheitsplatt". Elkeen
schull sien egen Platt snacken dr??ffen. De dullsten Regionalismen fallt
nat??rlich automaatsch weg, denn elkeen s??ht ja to, dat he ok verstahn warrt.
Aver dat schull tominnst keen Regeln geven, de de L????d v??rschrieven doot,
woans se snacken m????t oder dr??fft. Un miene Vision von so'n Senner is en
inklusive, bi de ok dat Nedersaksisch von de Nedderlannen un dat
Plautdietsche in alle Welt mit von de Partie is. Dat dee ik good finnen,
wenn so'n Senner ok in Pomerode in Brasilien oder bi de Plautdietschen von
Sibirien rintokriegen weer.

Dat Problem mit de Dialektveelfalt lett sik minnern, wenn dat
Videotext-??nnertitels in de wichtigsten Dialekten un villicht ok op
Hoochd????tsch un Nedderlandsch geven dee.

Denn dat Programm. Du schriffst "Amenn gifft dat da bloots Mainstream-Platt
un Wedderhalen vun uurole Ohnsorg-St??cken."

Ohnsorg h????rt dor op jeden Fall to! Dat geiht gornich anners. Aver nat??rlich
schull dat nich 50% von de Tied lopen ;-) Dat gifft aver ja ok noog annere
professionelle plattd????tsche Theaters, de veel to wenig kennt warrt. So'n
St??cken opnehmen, dat k??st nich veel, de Theaters hebbt dor wat von, wenn
jemehr Arbeit beter kennt warrt, un dat bringt d??chtig Kultur in't Programm.
Ik kunn mi ok v??rstellen, dat de Senner fakener mal Laientheater wiest. Is
denn keen hoge Kultur, aver dat mutt ja ok nich wesen. Mutt en goden Mix
wesen. Wat mi ok gefallen dee, is en plattd????tschen V??rutscheed f??r Liet
International. Dit Johr hebbt ja dat eerste Maal ok Plattd????tsche mitmaakt.
Mit en egen V??rutscheed weer dat gewiss m????glich, dor elk Johr mit bi to
wesen. Un dat Finaal von Liet warrt denn nat??rlich ok wiest.

Denn nat??rlich plattd????tsche Narichten.

En Sportsendung, de blangen Bundesliga etc. ok Regionalsport bringt.
Villicht ok Berichten ut en poor Sportoorden, de typisch f??r
Plattd????tschland s??nd, oder tominnst binnen Plattd????tschland fakener speelt
warrt. Klootscheten to'n Bispeel. Bi uns in de Region gifft dat veel
Fuustball. In Ollnborg un Oostfreesland warrt Sleuderball veel speelt. etc.

Denn en Magazin, in dat nee rutkamen plattd????tsche B??ker bespraken warrt.

Talkrunnen op Platt.

Denn en Reeg, in de de Spraak en beten v??rstellt warrt (Kennt ji "Mit
offenen Karten" op Arte? Dat is en Sendung in de elk Week en Land oder
geopolitisch Thema v??rstellt warrt, indem dor Koorten to wiest warrt. Heel
intressant! Sowat in de Oord, aver eben ??ver Spraak un nich ??ver Geopolitik)
.

Denn, ganz wichtig, en Sendung, in de Musik speelt warrt. Villicht eenfach
in de Form so as op MTV oder VIVA. Eenfach blot Clips  naenanner afspeelt.
K??st meist nix un helpt de plattd????tschen Musikers bekannter to warrn. Denn
as Extra-Format Volksmusik. De Volksmusik in de hoochd????tschen Medien is ja
temlich Alpen-lastig. Also noordd????tsche Volksmusik. Un v??r allen keen
"volkst??mlicher Schlager"-Gedudel! Richtige Volksmusik, Ledermaker-Musik
etc.

Nat??rlich ok Filme un Serien op Platt synchroniseert. Ik will mal en poor
Naams ut de Kino-Saison 2009 seggen: Saw 5, Avatar, Twilight, Ice Age 3,
Wickie und die starken M??nner, Lauras Stern und der geheimnisvolle Drache
Nian.  Disse Soort Filme. Serien so as South Park, The Simpsons, Grey's
Anatomy, How I Met Your Mother. Aver ok Klassikers, villicht Casablanca op
Platt etc.

Villicht en plattd????tsche Late-Night-Show?

En Magazin, dat sik mit de Themen Reekners, Internett etc. utenannersett.

Denn en Magazin, so'n Oord Telekolleg, dat Nedderlandsche oder Hoochd????tsche
Plattd????tsch bib????gt.

En Weddstried, bi den Filmstudenten Kortfilme op Platt maakt.

En Magazin f??r Binnenpolitik, een  f??r Butenpolitik. Dokus ut uns Heimat
(to'n Bispeel "Mien D??rp v??rstellt" oder sowat as'n NDR sien "Landpartie").

En Regio-Soap, so as "Van Jonge Leu en Oale Groond" oder "Boven Wotter".

Ok wichtig: Live-Berichten von de plattd????tschen Schrieverpriesen.
Freudenthal-Pries, Fritz-Reuter-Pries etc. pp.

Villicht as Gegenveranstaltung to'n  rhienschen Karneval en ??mtog to Faslam
??verdragen.

Villicht ok mal en egen Film produzeren (aver dat k??st denn temlich).

Jeden S??nndag en plattd????tschen Goddsdeenst ??verdragen.

Un dor mutt f??r elk ??ller wat bi wesen. L??tte Kinner, Kinner in't
School??ller, junge L????d, dat middlere ??ller un ole L????d.

Allens blot Ideen. Wenn man blot de Ressourcen dor s??nd, denn kann'n dat
allens maken.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 17:55:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:55:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.26 (01) [DE]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.095507.0800.>

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From: Hannelore Hinz  HanneHinz at t-online.de
Subject: Tradition

Liebe Lowlanders,

auch um die Weihnachtszeit ranken Br??uche.
Steffensdag m. Stephanstag. Urspr??nglich Name des heiligen Stephanus (Ap. 6
f. : Die Apostelgeschichte, s. E. Voss 'Dat Ni Testament f??r plattd??tsch
L??d in ehr Muddersprak oewerdragen von Ernst Vo??), dessen Kalendertag der
26. Dezember war und als Besch??tzer der Pferde galt. Ein Anklang an den
ungarischen K??nig
Stephan k??nnte vorliegen in dem K??nig Stephanius des L??genm??rchens.
Ich hoffe, alle sind gut durch die Steffensnacht gekommen, die Nacht vor dem
Anbruch des Stephanstages; nach dem Volksglauben erf??llen sich die Tr??ume
der Steffensnacht.
Steffenmorgen m. Der Morgen des Stephanstages; Br??uche, die dem Abwehrzauber
dienten: wenn Steffenmorgen dat Veih b??rnt  (hier mit 'n' ) ward, m??t ierst
'n Hund in 'n B??rntrogg sm??ten warden, dormit dat Veih nich krank ward
(Sch??nberg/Selmsdorf); man soll erst eine Flinte ins B??rmwater abschie??en
oder eine gl??hende Kohle hineinwerfen, dormit de Wod' (vgl. Gaud') sick
verfiert; Kreuzdorn in die Raufe gelegt, sch??tzt die Pferde gegen Krankheit
(Sch??nberg/Demern).
Da der Namensheilige als Besch??tzer der Pferde, Pferdearzt galt, lie?? man an
diesem Tage alle Pferde zur Ader, also steffen, etwas im Zusammenhang mit
dem Stephanstag tun.
Das 'Stephanen oder Stefnen der Pferde':  unter den Fuhrleuten und andern
die mit Pferden umgehen, hat man die Gewohnheit, an dem zum
Ged??chtni?? des ersten M??rtyrers Stephanus gewidmeten zweeten heil.
Weynachtsfeyertage nicht nur sich selbst, sondern auch vorz??glich den
Pferden die Ader  schlagen zu lassen (Gem. Aufs. 1769).
Das Steffen, ein urspr??nglich am Stephanstag stattfindender Umzug von Haus
zu Haus, bei dem Eier, Wurst usw. gesammelt werden; der entsprechende
Heischegang zur Fastnacht (Fastelabend) dann gleichfalls Steffen genannt.
Am 2. Weihnachtstag stefften die Knechte mit einer Kiepe von Haus zu Haus
(Sch??nberg/(ez) Prieschendorf);
steffen deden de Muskanten ok (Sch??nberg); bei Zarrentin (Hagenow)
herum hie?? das Schlagen mit der Lebensrute steffen, weil es am Stephanstage
. . . vorgenommen wurde'  s. Mecklenburg Heimatbuch. Dieser sonst der
Fastnacht und dem Osterfest zugeh??rige Brauch hei??t allgem. st??pen.

Du olle Steffen (Tunichtgut, Ludwigslust/Ziegendorf).

Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Ich wollte das Beste tun.

Hartlich mien Gr??uten, is je noch Wihnachten.

Hanne

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 18:04:16 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:04:16 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (02) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.100416.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]

Un "Schulfunk" op Platt, Sennen ??ver Bildungs- un Wetenschapsthemen! Un
afsluuts keen B??rsenkursen. In'n Plattkanaal keen B??rs! Dat warrt en
bes??nner Utteknen, en "Alleinstellungsmerkmal":-)Avers politisches Kabarett.
Da heff ik al poor Fr??nnen, mit de tosamen ik dat al lang mal maken wull...
wi hebbt bloots spintiseert...



Hach ja, Hanne hett ja recht. Ik heff al to veel ??m de Ohren. Dat is to'n
Hulen. Ik heff noch nich halv de List afarbeidt, de ik mi f??r de
Wiehnachtsferien v??rnahmen harr...



Man dat wi wieder spintiseert: Is dat Internet nich doch villicht de rechte
Plattfoorm, sowat *antofangen*? Kunn een nich mal anfangen, eerste Sendungen
to produzeern, dat een dat lehrt, K??nn kriegt un s??ht, woneem wat fehlt, wat
wa veel Geld, Tied un Ressourcen k??st? Wiss kunneen Profis bitrecken, Hanne
t.B., villicht ok anner. Dat Ergeevnis kunn in't Internet publik maakt
warrn. *Dat *tominnst k??st denn nix. Naja, nich veel. Dat mehrste is Tied un
Arbeit.



Hartlich!



Marlou



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (04) [DE-NDS]

Ohnsorg h????rt dor op jeden Fall to! Dat geiht gornich anners. Aver nat??rlich
schull dat nich 50% von de Tied lopen ;-) Dat gifft aver ja ok noog annere
professionelle plattd????tsche Theaters, de veel to wenig kennt warrt. So'n
St??cken opnehmen, dat k??st nich veel, de Theaters hebbt dor wat von, wenn
jemehr Arbeit beter kennt warrt, un dat bringt d??chtig Kultur in't Programm.
Ik kunn mi ok v??rstellen, dat de Senner fakener mal Laientheater wiest. Is
denn keen hoge Kultur, aver dat mutt ja ok nich wesen. Mutt en goden Mix
wesen. Wat mi ok gefallen dee, is en plattd????tschen V??rutscheed f??r Liet
International. Dit Johr hebbt ja dat eerste Maal ok Plattd????tsche mitmaakt.
Mit en egen V??rutscheed weer dat gewiss m????glich, dor elk Johr mit bi to
wesen. Un dat Finaal von Liet warrt denn nat??rlich ok wiest.

Denn nat??rlich plattd????tsche Narichten.

En Sportsendung, de blangen Bundesliga etc. ok Regionalsport bringt.
Villicht ok Berichten ut en poor Sportoorden, de typisch f??r
Plattd????tschland s??nd, oder tominnst binnen Plattd????tschland fakener speelt
warrt. Klootscheten to'n Bispeel. Bi uns in de Region gifft dat veel
Fuustball. In Ollnborg un Oostfreesland warrt Sleuderball veel speelt. etc.

Denn en Magazin, in dat nee rutkamen plattd????tsche B??ker bespraken warrt.

Talkrunnen op Platt.

Denn en Reeg, in de de Spraak en beten v??rstellt warrt (Kennt ji "Mit
offenen Karten" op Arte? Dat is en Sendung in de elk Week en Land oder
geopolitisch Thema v??rstellt warrt, indem dor Koorten to wiest warrt. Heel
intressant! Sowat in de Oord, aver eben ??ver Spraak un nich ??ver Geopolitik)
.

Denn, ganz wichtig, en Sendung, in de Musik speelt warrt. Villicht eenfach
in de Form so as op MTV oder VIVA. Eenfach blot Clips naenanner afspeelt.
K??st meist nix un helpt de plattd????tschen Musikers bekannter to warrn. Denn
as Extra-Format Volksmusik. De Volksmusik in de hoochd????tschen Medien is ja
temlich Alpen-lastig. Also noordd????tsche Volksmusik. Un v??r allen keen
"volkst??mlicher Schlager"-Gedudel! Richtige Volksmusik, Ledermaker-Musik
etc.

Nat??rlich ok Filme un Serien op Platt synchroniseert. Ik will mal en poor
Naams ut de Kino-Saison 2009 seggen: Saw 5, Avatar, Twilight, Ice Age 3,
Wickie und die starken M??nner, Lauras Stern und der geheimnisvolle Drache
Nian. Disse Soort Filme. Serien so as South Park, The Simpsons, Grey's
Anatomy, How I Met Your Mother. Aver ok Klassikers, villicht Casablanca op
Platt etc.

Villicht en plattd????tsche Late-Night-Show?

En Magazin, dat sik mit de Themen Reekners, Internett etc. utenannersett.

Denn en Magazin, so'n Oord Telekolleg, dat Nedderlandsche oder Hoochd????tsche
Plattd????tsch bib????gt.

En Weddstried, bi den Filmstudenten Kortfilme op Platt maakt.

En Magazin f??r Binnenpolitik, een f??r Butenpolitik. Dokus ut uns Heimat
(to'n Bispeel "Mien D??rp v??rstellt" oder sowat as'n NDR sien "Landpartie").

En Regio-Soap, so as "Van Jonge Leu en Oale Groond" oder "Boven Wotter".

Ok wichtig: Live-Berichten von de plattd????tschen Schrieverpriesen.
Freudenthal-Pries, Fritz-Reuter-Pries etc. pp.

Villicht as Gegenveranstaltung to'n rhienschen Karneval en ??mtog to Faslam
??verdragen.

Villicht ok mal en egen Film produzeren (aver dat k??st denn temlich).

Jeden S??nndag en plattd????tschen Goddsdeenst ??verdragen.

Un dor mutt f??r elk ??ller wat bi wesen. L??tte Kinner, Kinner in't
School??ller, junge L????d, dat middlere ??ller un ole L????d.

Allens blot Ideen. Wenn man blot de Ressourcen dor s??nd, denn kann'n dat
allens maken.

Marcus Buck


----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.25 (05) [DE-NDS]



Wat man nich all' so an'n Wihnachten deit...

un wat ick giern noch ??nner de L????d bringen m??cht'...



"blaua??gig" (blaag????gsch' ?, dor geiht't all los...) m??ten sien. Oewer ji
s??nd je as de will'n Pierd. Man kann nich glieksen mit 'n Rupp-Di-Wupp de
hoge Ledder nah bawen h??ppen, dat k??nn 'n Fehlschu?? ward'n.

Woans heit dat man noch..."Die Jugend will stets mit Gewalt an erster Stelle
sein, doch wird man erst ein bischen alt, dann sieht man alles ein..." (Da
klopf ich meinen Hobel aus, und denk, du brummst mir gut.) Dat is fr??ndlich
meint.

Blau??ugig j??st upstunn's m??t sien. Ja, fuurts all wat maken, angahn, wat tau
Tied noedig is. All' juug Andriewen brukt sien Tied.



Uns' Platt is afsackt, m??t holl'n warden, wedder h??gerup stiegen, un so ein
lang' T??uwen up juug Angahn k??nn ihrer...hm, macht' gor nich seggen, ehr
Dodsien.

Oewer, so is dat je nich, Platt is all so oft dodseggt worden, un is nich
??nnergahn.



Wat ick nienich ahnt heff... Un dor hett Meck/Pom bi de "Spraken-Charta 2009
in SN ein Loff (Lob) kr??gen. Tsch??, wat seggst nu, (un de OLD-BRD ... nich).

Un wat ji all' so angahn willn, maken wi je ok all t??mlich lang. Uns liggt't
nich so de Oort up'n Putz tau haugen. Heff ji juug mal w??rklich in juug
Rebeiten??mseihn, odder blotsen von gr??unen Schriewdisch ut...



Oewer Probleme gifft't. Wiel v??r Johren ein Moderater von uns' Radio, von de
Kl??er 'n gaudet Platt up de Tung' harr, man tauv??l F??hlers mit sien frie
Snacken mitsleeken, b??n ick bikam', heff poor Radio-Platt-(Sendungen) von je
drei Stunn' (morgens Klock 6 - 9) mith??ert, un dat an'n S??nndag, all' sien
F??hlers mit Dag, Klockentied,verkihrt un Henwies' richtig up ein fr??ndlich
Oort, in'n Breiw schrewen un em mien H??lp, jawoll H??lp anbaden. Dat
Schimpen, Futtern n??tt gor nicks. Nah drei Breiwen is de fr??ndlich Kierl von
allein tau mi kam' un hebben mit Freud un Leiw sien Platt henkr??gen. H??t
s??nd wi de besten Fr??nn'.Hei spendierte Kaffe(e) un Kauken un ick mien
Helpen.



Oewer liekers. V??l Radio-Reporters will'n je ok uns' Platt mit O-T??n
infangen, odder Nahrichten up Platt vermellen, Tsch??, un dor k??mmt mi
m??nnigmal dat Gruugen an. Wat sall'ns daun, mit Leiw gahn's ehr Saak an, un
liekers d??cht dat nicks. All'ns Hd.

oewersett un ok noch verkihrt snackt. Wat hebben Tauh??rers/Taukiekers in
all' de Johren bi de Medien futtert; de blewen un blewen ??mmer stuur. K??nst'
nicks nich maken (de Meckl. verduwwelt oft sien Nee (nein)).



Mal eins schrew ick 'n fr??ndlichen Breiw an TV/NDR "talk up platt". Wat
rutk??m, ein fr??ndlich Anter von F. Werts mit ein schenkt Bauk un CD, un
Fr??nn' s??nd wi ok word'n. Is doch bil??tten wat. Na ja, dat l??ppt je nu
anners.



De Gedanken s??nd frie, m??t ok sien. Oewer nich mit'n Hauruck. Dat m??t sick
"entwickeln".

De Medien m??ten wedder mihr Plattd????tsch tau Wuurt kamen laten, dor liggt ok
de Haaken, sei m??ten uns tau Sied stahn. Man, un dat is wohrraftig 'n
Problem. Mi d??cht', de will'n nicks nich von Plattd????tsch weiten.



Un wo uns nu de Boewelsten dat Sporen uphalsen, kannst doch gor nich dat
V??rhebben in de Welt setten.



Ja, gaht in de Rebeiten, dat m??t sien. Snackt mit de L????d (blot oewer
niemodsche Technik k??nn ok Harten kolt laten, un von naakigen Schriewdisch
ut kannst dat Problem nich in de Reig' kriegen. Plattd????tsch is ein l??wig
Spraak, brukt un hett ehr Warmnis usw.



Kein "Einheitsplatt" is ut mien Sicht dat best' Nahsinn', dat r??ken ick hoch
an. Na klor, Ohnsorg h??rt mit tau, un wor??m nich ok uns'
"Fritz-Reuter-B??hn"??? De is all so oft afmeiert worden, un is doch Ohnsorg
gliek, man, dat will'ns (wecker?) nich wohrhebben.



Also, ick wull man blotsen dit Nahsinnen k??nnig maken, dat m??t wassen un
gewi?? gauden Mess (D??nger) m??t ok sien.



So, nu drink ick mien 2. Tass' Kaffe(e)...



Noch 'n sinnigen Wihnachtsdag an all' de Lowlanners

von



Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 23:48:05 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:48:05 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.154805.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Resources

Dear Sandy *et al.*,

I remind you of our exchange about a clearer link to our archive. (See
below.)

Today I (twice) added a more obvious link to our front page:
http://lowlands-l.net/

It leads to a page with a link and instruction:
http://lowlands-l.net/archive.php

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA


From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.11.22 (06) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I am often asked to explain how to reach and use our archives. So here
> goes, to all of you to preempt individual responses.
>       * Go to
>         http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html .
>       * Click on "Search the archives".
>       * Click on the box next to "Substring search" to make a check
>         mark appear. (This will cause the search engine to search
>         texts of messages rather than only subject lines.)
>       * Enter your search terms. (If you are looking for a phrase,
>         write it in quotation marks to keep the string of words
>         together.)
>       * Click on the button entitled "Start the search".
> Please keep these instructions for later reference.

Ron,

I keep meaning to bring up: surely as Lowlands-L is a discussion group,
the archives should be the first thing you find to click on on the site?

When I visit the site, I find that link buried rather deep, considering
its importance. I used to have trouble finding the archives, though I've
got used to the idea that they're not as easy to find as you'd expect.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Thanks, Sandy. Point well taken.

I'll try and see if I can make the link more prominent on our main page,
possibly this weekend.

Happy holidays!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 26 23:50:55 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:50:55 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (04) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.155055.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (02) [DE-NDS]

 Hallo Marlou un Lowlanners,

du b??st je bannig kr??gel, b??st 'n Katteiker (auch f??r Schelm, Schlingel)
di hett woll de Hawer (Hafer) steckt (??berm??tig), faselst von dit un dat,
hest doch woll nich Grappen in'n Kopp. Un wat dat h??mpelt, ja, mit
de Inf??ll'. Dat is je as bi'n Wihnachtsmann.  Nicks f??r ungaut. -
Wenn *DU *dissen niegen Kram v??rslagen deihst, denn gah ok man mit 'n
Bispill
v??r-an, nu grienst un wist mi dat oewerlaten. *Ji* willt dat je. B??st je ok
bi dien PLATTPARTU 'n flietigen Profi, nu fang man partu an; ick weit mien'
Weg.

Heff gistern dat Kabarett "sp??tlese" (15 Johr taugangen in Ost un West)
niege
pl. Texten tauschaben. Twei Mitmakers s??nd ok ??mmer flietig tau mien
Schaulstunn' VHS un nu bi "Kaffe(e) Ulrike" kamen. Sp??tlese hett sick gaud
rutmakt, hett all Priesen kr??gen. Regisseur helpt nah, Pianist, 'n gauden
Sp??ler up dat Klawezimpel, einst K??nstler von de Konzert- u.
Gastspieldirektion un denn af un an Ethel mit de Treckfiedel (von uns
Treckfiedel- Orchester 1987-1989, leider later ingahn, un noch anner
Mitmakers.  Wi 40 T-Fiedler hebben sogor in Leipzig (Haus der Heiteren Muse,
sp??ter abgebrannt) flietig upsp??lt un TV harr sien Freud an uns. Mit
40 Muskanten g??ng de Post oewer af, un all'ns direkt/live.
Un v??l tau v??l, dat H??pen is  tau dull. - B??ter is, wi gahn dat mit'n
kl??ftigen Kopp an. Wi will'n doch alltohop wassen. Liekers mit de Beinen up
de Ierd bliewen. Nich up Duer (Dauer) mit tauv??l "narrschen Kram" (auch f??r
spinnen) de Tied so wegsmieten.
- Wi hebben je noch denn' Olljohrsabend (wedder 'n Vullbukabend) un
Niejohrsdag v??r uns, later k??nnt' b??ten reeller warden. "??mmer sachte" s??d
Siewert.
Hewt' ierst mal uns Platt h??gerup, dat's noediger.

Hollt jug fuchtig!

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 01:25:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:25:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.172540.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com>
Subject: Oscar Starck Books

Next month , I want to start to buying Marollien books of Oscar Starck.
I ordered book from usa / alibris and I am still waiting after full month
I am living in Istanbul and I am looking for a used book seller who have
these books , near here and sends books after credit card payment.

Do you know such a seller , not ebay , not paypal.

Thanks ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Hi, Mustafa!

It's great to hear from you from beautiful Istanbul. Forumuza ho?? geldiniz.

I hope someone will have the answer you are seeking.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 01:37:57 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:37:57 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SAT.26.DEC.2009.173757.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (04) [NDS]

Leev Hanne, du seggst "sinnig", du seggst "suutje", du seggst "man sachten
mit de jungen Peer". Un du hest recht. Ik weet doch, dat de Welt von
Minschen regeert warrt, de nich w??llt, dat dat passert, wat "richtig" is. Ik
weet, dat dat, wat ik hier preester un preddig, nienich wohr warrt. Aver
liekers, mien Br??gen is jung, mien Br??gen is nich anpasst. Ik segg nich dat,
wat "realistisch" is, ik segg blot dat, wat ik f??r n??dig holl! Wenn sik nix
??nnert, ganz un gor ??nnert, denn blifft Plattd????tsch dood. Dat is so! Wenn
Plattd????tsch bestahn blieven schall, denn mutt sik _allens_ ??nnern. Wokeen
gl????vt, dat kann nix warrn un dat is unklook dat ??verhoop to vers??ken, de
kann sik ok glieks in de spraaklich Dodenkist leggen. 'Keen wat anners
denkt, de schall dor f??r strieden.

"Realistisch starven" is f??r mi keen Option. De Fahn tominnsten mutt weihn,
wenn wi ??nnergaht.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:07:33 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:07:33 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.27 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.100733.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

 From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: Tw??lften

Wat k??mmt, dat k??mmt, un Hoeg is ok mit bi. . .

Leiw' Lowlanners,

Als zw??lfter Tag nach Weihnachten (6. Jan. Dreik??nigstag): 'in den hilghen
Daghe tu(u) twelften' (1371); 'den hylghen avend thom
twelfften' (1344);(..... dann die Tage und N??chte von Weihnachten bis zum
Dreik??nigstag: 'in dem also genannten Zwelfften' (1683); in 'n Tw??lften
(Sch??nberg); hierf??r meist Pl. dei Tw??lften.

*In dei Tw??lften *Pl. m. (Redensarten Verbote und Gebote); hei geiht as de
Hund in de Tw??lften, schleicht still und tr??bselig umher.
Aberglaube: In den  Tw??lften  treiben allerlei b??se Geister ihr Wesen: in de
Tw??lfen geiht de B??s' ??mher; de Drak treckt haupts??chlich in de Tw??lften;
wo  Fru Gaud'  bekannt is, erscheint diese fast ausschlie??lich in den
Tw??lften; das f??hrt zur Namensdeutung: Fru Gaud' hett tw??lf Hunn', dat s??nd
jo de Tw??lften; besonders f??rchtete man in dieser Zeit den Wolf, weshalb
sein Name nicht genannt werden sollte (1683); um sich von diesen Wesen zu
sch??tzen, mu?? man mancherlei Verbote beachten (hier nur einige Beispiele):
'w??hrend dieser Tage (werden) die St??lle nicht gereinigt; es wird nicht
gesponnen, gewaschen oder getrocknet; . . . auch darf man alsdann keine
Erbsen essen'; wer den Duurnbusch in de Tw??lften upkr??nen ded', dei m????t 'n
Rosenbusch ok kr??nen. (De trurigen Saaken lat ick mal weg.)
Zur Abwehr der b??sen Wesen scho?? man in den Tw??lften in den Sod; in de
Tw??lften m??t man Solt in den Sod smiten, s??s supen Fru Waus' ehr Hunn'
dorut; den b??sen Wesen wird der Zutritt zum Hause verwehrt, wenn man einen
neuen Besen vor das Hecktor legt.

Dies' k??nnten die Gebote sein. Reiche Ertr??ge im kommenden Jahr;
wat in de Tw??ften d??scht ward, gifft duwwelt L??hnung; man glaubte, da?? in
den Tw??ften geborene Menschen  mihr seihn  k??nnen; da?? aus dem Wetter der
zw??lf Tage auf dasjenige der kommenden zw??lf Monate geschlossen werden
k??nne also  de Dag' in de Tw??lften seggen v??rut, woans de  Maande warden.

Nu wat taun Hoegen. Tw??lftengoorn  n. in den  Tw??lften  auf besondere Weise
gesponnenes Garn: Nijohrsnacht sall de Fru ne Fitz Goorn unrecht spinnen, de
Mann sall dat afhaspeln, beid' splitternaakt, dat is dat Tw??lftengoorn; dat
Tw??lftengoorn m??t 'n Kind von soeben Johr spinnen un haspeln un afn??hmen;
durch  Tw??lftengoorn steckte man Kinner, die viel schrien, stillschweigend
dreimal oder verkehrt herum (dat s??ll helpen); gegen (ick schriew hier
leiwer dat hd. Wuurt) Bettn??sser soll man dem Kind  ne Fitz  Tw??lftengorrn
am Donnerstagabend um den Hals h??ngen. (Dat Tw??lftengoorn wier so wat as ein
Gl??cksgoorn.)
Lit.: Wossidlo/Teuchert

Dit langt denn ok, dorf??r nu "Poesie"...

Helmuth Schr??der
2.4.1842 - 11.12.1909
(ein beachtl. Lyriker seiner Zeit)

In den Tw??lften

D??rch Drewelsnei un Wulkennacht,
wenn nich kein Steern an'n Himmel,
t??ht hen d??rch't Land de wille Jagd:
De J??ger up den Schimmel.
Lut snorkt de M??hr; denn achter ehr
blafft hell ne K??ppel Hunnen,
as harr s' de Spor van Bor un Beer
in Nacht un Newel funnen.
Un s??ht hei in den Weg sick stahn
en dumme Hanne N??ter,
b??lkt: "Horido! Holl Mittelbahn!"
em an de wille R??ter.
Em gr??ten, wenn v??rbi hei t??ht,
de ollen griesen Eiken.
Hei haegt sick, wenn hei G??wel s??ht,
an de noch Peerk??pp bleiken.
Dat is Froh Wode, dei sin Riek
de Tw??lften deit beschrieden.
S??ll hei Di drapen, dennso wiek
em ut den Weg bi Tieden!

Ein hartlich Gr??uten.

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:09:39 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:09:39 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.27 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.100939.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Uwe Tychsen <tychsen at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (05) [EN]

I found one in:
http://www.zvab.com/advancedSearch.do?author=%22starck%2C+o%22&publisher=&title=&keyword=&anyWords=&isbn=&publicationYearFrom=&publicationYearTo=&priceFrom=&priceTo=&itemMedium=al&displayCurrency=EUR&countryOfSeller=all&lastXDays=-1&languageOfBook=all&sortBy=1&itemsPerPage=10&totalItemCount=200

yours
Uwe Tychsen

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Sun Dec 27 18:13:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 10:13:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.101332.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]

Hallo leiwe Marcus un all' Lowlanners,

*de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch, noch, un sei ward
weihn!

Du hest di nu inreiht, dat finn ick grotorrig, hest all 'n Kumpelment
verdeint, denn jung' L????d bruken wi, wenn't g??ng bannig v??l, de eins as uns'
Nahkamen dorf??r sorgen, dat de Wind ut all' Richtungen uns' Fahn lustig
fladdern l??tt.
Man, du steihst an'n Anfang, uns' Spraak nich. Dat m??ten respektieren, sick
mit de Spraak vertruugt maken, all' ehrn Riekdaum ann??hmen un begriepen un
ok ehr m??nnig Up un Dal, un f??r ehr Bestahn un Wiererkamen instahn. Grote
Dichters , K??nstler un anner  einfache L????d ut verleden Tieden, de wi binah
all verg??ten hebben un v??l leiwe Minschen (ok h??tigendaags) ehr G??ben,
m??nnigmal mit Hartblaut, dat m??ten wi achten.
Hefft ji dat bether all mitkr??gen. Dor m??ten m??nnigmal ahn Komputer-Technik
Literatur
ok von dunnmals l??sen.
Uns' Spraak is nich krank, sei is all lang' ut de Winneln rut un hett sick
grot rutreckt.
F??hlers liggen mihr an'n ??mgang un mit ehr Snacken un womoeglich an de
Makers.
Sei hett, na ja, segg ick mal "ehr Krise" (nich so leeg as de Klimawannel,
W??rerwannel), un wenn in so ein Tied noch all'n up'n Kopp stellt ward. wat
sall dor bi rutkamen, dennkann't blot leeger kamen. Uns' Spraak is kein
"Gegenstand", sei is "Uns' Mudderspraak", jawoll Mudder un Spraak, de will
man nu so so d??gt, 'n Hittkopp mit "Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n
flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch' Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ??nner de
L????d bringen. Grote Schr??d k??nn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken.
Uns' Spraak  pa??t nich in ein "Labor". Wat bether l??p is gaud lopen, dat
verdanken wi v??l v??l v??l Minschen hier un wietaf, ok unsen LL-L Baas,
jawoll!
Hest du di mal utkundschaft, wat Minschen nah ehren Arbeitsdag f??r uns Platt
makt hebben un ??mmer wedder "ehrenamtlich" mit bi s??nd. Kiek di mal ??m, dat
is as in einen Immenrump, wo sick wohrhaftig wat deit.
H??lp is noedig, kein Bautz-Bum upstunn's, nicks oewer't Knei br??ken.
Frag  mal eins Plattsnackers, ob sei sich ein Grupp (Kinner un anner)
ann??hmen will'n, hm, k??mpfen will'ns all un klauk r??den ok, un wenn't up
ank??mmt, hest di dacht.
Un dit Leiden k??nn de niege Weg bibeholln.
Tauierst an uns' G??ren (Kinner, uns' Blaumen), uns' Nahkamen denken un ehr
up leiwe Oort un Ged??er all bi't Sp??len (Kinnergorden, tau Huus) so
unvermaudens Plattd????tsch tausp??len, un hier deit sick je all lang' wat.
Un wat ein Minsch mal seggt hett "...wer zu sp??t kommt..", dat tellt hier
nich.
't is noch nich tau lat, oewer ein Bistahn, H??lp un Dank is noedig.

De Gedanken s??nd frie, dien un mien (nu ok), alltohopen. Disketieren m??t
sien ... oewer nich blotsen.

Von Harten mien Gr??uten.

Hanne

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 00:57:43 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:57:43 -0800
Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.12.27 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.165743.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Li??glanners,

Charles Gehring, director of the New Netherland Project at the New York
State library has been trying for 35 years to revive interest in the Dutch
roots of New York. So far, he already translated 7 200 pages of 17th century
Dutch texts. One of the journals that he translated, deals with the
adventures of a certain Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert, probably an
ancestor of Humphrey Bogart.

Re the USA, Gehring says:

???What you find out is how deeply the Dutch cast roots here and how much of
their culture they transmitted to this country.???

More here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/nyregion/27dutch.html

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 01:02:07 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:02:07 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (05) [NDS]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.DEC.2009.170207.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 27 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]

Leev Hanning, leven L??,

wi w??llt all de Sprook wohren, dat schulln wi eerstmal fasthollen. Wi w??llt
ehr ok utbreden, denk ik; wi all w??llt, dat mehr un j??ngere Snackers en
godes Platt beherrscht un Togang to mehr pd. Informaschonen hebbt, wieldess
de regionale un veelf??ltige Charakter vun Platt wohrt blifft. So wied s??nd
wi ??vereen? Good. Wat wi f??r de Spraak doon k????nt un w??llt, schull good
d??rdacht ween. Dat schulln wi denn best hier tosamen maken. Du, Hanning,
betonst, dat de Spraak al so veel ??verstahn hett un wiss noch mehr
??verstahn warrt ("*de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch,
noch, un sei ward weihn!"). Marcus meent op de anner Siet, de Kulturverlust
hett h????t ganz anner Tempo opnahmen, un veel davun warrt de Spraak nich mehr
??verstahn, ehrdat se ??nnergeiht (wenn ok mit weihen Fahn :-)). Dorwegen will
Marcus opleevst mit en "grotes" Medium as'n Kiekschapp-Senner Platt pr??sent
maken. Du, Hanne, wohrschuugst, de Spraak nu "'n Hittkopp mit
"Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch'
Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ??nner de L????d to bringen." Du meenst, wenn ik Di
recht verstah, de Idee (den Droom, dat Wulkenslott...) vun en
Kiekschappkanaal orr (v??reerst) en Webstee, 'neem Platt in multimediale Wies
??nner de L?? br??cht warrt. Richtig? As ik Marcus verstah, hett he da nix
??verfl??chlichs plaant, keen Schund; he will veelmehr weertvulle un ganz
normale Informaschonen in Platt faten. So as dat mit Hoochd????tsch ok
passeert. Richtig, Marcus? Man Du, Hanne, wohrschuugst, un dat maakt mi
nadenkern. Du hest veel K??nn vun de pd. Konsumentenschap un ok vun pd.
Medienarbeit, un mi d??cht, Du kunnst de Lowlanners nauer seggen, wat Du f??r
Probleme f??rchten deist.

1. Wat nau is de "niemoodsch Aart", de wi meiden m????t? Internet un TV wiss
nich, de gifft dat ja al, un Du steihst dor achter, dat weet wi.
2. Wenn de Spraak al so veel verkraft hett, as Du seggst ("*de Fahn weiht
all oewer duusend Johr, *un sei weiht noch, noch, un sei ward weihn!"), woso
schull se j??st an en V??rhebben as dat vun Marcus Schaden nehmen? Welk borgen
Gefohr s??hst Du?
3. Du seggst: "Grote Schr??d k??nn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken",
un dat maakt hellh????rn. Welk Phasen meenst Du? Fehlt Platt en
"Entwicklungsphase", ehrdat dat riep is f??r sowat as Feernsehn? Meenst Du,
dat de Spraak to ooltmoodsch is un moderniseert h????rt? Orr is de
Konsumentenschap nich praat daf??r? Slah doch mal v??r, welk Schreed een
toeerst doon schull, dat so'n Projekt as Marcus sien Spood hebben kunn!
Woans w????rst Du de Saak anpacken?

Blangenbi hest Du ganz recht, Hanne, wenn Du mi wohrschuugst, mi nich to
??vernehmen. J??mmers, wenn mi en ??nnerfangen good schient, b??n ik as eerst
dorbi, min Mitdoon in'n Ring to smieten, wieldat dat de beste Aart is, en
Saak to feddern; man dat heff ik nu al bi so mennig Saken daan, dat meist
nix mehr nablifft vun mi, un ik weet, dat ik an min Grenz kamen b??n. Maak Di
keen Sorg, ik ??vernehm mi nich.

Hartlich

Marlou

P.S. Mailst mi mal Din nieges Gedicht ??ver'n Klimawannel?

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (03) [DE-NDS]

From: Hannelore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de <mailto:HanneHinz at t-online.de>
>

> Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.26 (05) [DE-NDS]
>  Hallo leiwe Marcus un all' Lowlanners,
>  *de Fahn weiht all oewer duusend Johr,*
>
Richtig.

> * *un sei weiht noch, noch,
>
Richtig.

> un sei ward weihn!
>
Hm.
V??r hunnert Johr weren dat noch so bi 20 Millionen Minschen Plattsnackers,
von de de grote Deel ok den ganzen Dag Platt snackt hebbt. Vondaag s??nd noch
so bi 5 Millionen nableven. Dor s??nd al de mittellt, de blot "Hoochd????tsch
op plattd????tschen Luudstand" snackt (un ok "Nedderlandsch op Nedersaksischen
Luudstand") un ok de, de man af un to Platt snackt. Un von disse 5 Millionen
staht bestimmt mehr as 4 Millionen al in't twete Halv von't Leven. Dood is
de Spraak noch lang nich, dat stimmt. Ik b??n aver meist vermoden, dat de
Fahn in Tokumst blot noch labbig ??m de Fahnenstang slackert. St??ttig in'n
Wind knattern schall se woll nich mehr. Nich ahn frischen Wind...

  Du hest di nu inreiht, dat finn ick grotorrig, hest all 'n Kumpelment
> verdeint, denn jung' L????d bruken wi, wenn't g??ng bannig v??l, de eins as uns'
> Nahkamen dorf??r sorgen, dat de Wind ut all' Richtungen uns' Fahn lustig
> fladdern l??tt.
> Man, du steihst an'n Anfang, uns' Spraak nich. Dat m??ten respektieren, sick
> mit de Spraak vertruugt maken, all' ehrn Riekdaum ann??hmen un begriepen un
> ok ehr m??nnig Up un Dal, un f??r ehr Bestahn un Wiererkamen instahn. Grote
> Dichters , K??nstler un anner  einfache L????d ut verleden Tieden, de wi binah
> all verg??ten hebben un v??l leiwe Minschen (ok h??tigendaags) ehr G??ben,
> m??nnigmal mit Hartblaut, dat m??ten wi achten.
> Hefft ji dat bether all mitkr??gen. Dor m??ten m??nnigmal ahn Komputer-Technik
>  Literatur
> ok von dunnmals l??sen.
> Uns' Spraak is nich krank, sei is all lang' ut de Winneln rut un hett sick
> grot rutreckt.
> F??hlers liggen mihr an'n ??mgang un mit ehr Snacken un womoeglich an de
> Makers.
> Sei hett, na ja, segg ick mal "ehr Krise" (nich so leeg as de Klimawannel,
> W??rerwannel), un wenn in so ein Tied noch all'n up'n Kopp stellt ward. wat
> sall dor bi rutkamen, dennkann't blot leeger kamen. Uns' Spraak is kein
> "Gegenstand", sei is "Uns' Mudderspraak", jawoll Mudder un Spraak, de will
> man nu so so d??gt, 'n Hittkopp mit "Schnell-Rezeptur" (womoeglich mit'n
> flinken raschen Kakpott) up niemodsch' Oort mit Dunner un Blitz ??nner de
> L????d bringen. Grote Schr??d k??nn' noedige Epochen/Phasen in 'n Dutt maken.
> Uns' Spraak  pa??t nich in ein "Labor". Wat bether l??p is gaud lopen, dat
> verdanken wi v??l v??l v??l Minschen hier un wietaf, ok unsen LL-L Baas,
> jawoll!
> Hest du di mal utkundschaft, wat Minschen nah ehren Arbeitsdag f??r uns
> Platt makt hebben un ??mmer wedder "ehrenamtlich" mit bi s??nd. Kiek di mal
> ??m, dat is as in einen Immenrump, wo sick wohrhaftig wat deit.
>
"ehrenamtlich" is dat Problem. Dat reckt nich. Weertschop drifft uns Welt
an. Dat gifft noog L????d, de kannst du dusend Maal de Sch????nheit von de
Spraak wiesen un se intresseert sik dor nich f??r. Aver wenn se dor Euros mit
maken k????nt, denn kummt dat Intress! Dat mutt m????glich wesen mit
Plattd????tsch Geld to maken.
D????tschland gifft 2009 97,9 Milliarden Euro f??r Bildung ut. Wenn dor man 1%
von f??r Plattd????tsch utgeven warrn dee (de Andeel von de Platd????tschen an de
Bev??lkerung liggt bi 5%, fr??her wohrschienlich ??ver 30%), denn dee de
plattd????tsche Kultur exploderen!
De Staat hett in de Vergangenheit Billionen utgeven f??r en System, dat dor
op utricht weer oder dat tominnst ahn mit de Wimper to tucken tolaten hett,
dat Plattd????tsch bil??tten utstarvt.
Dat Recht op Moderspraak is en Minschenrecht. Un dit Minschenrecht hebbt de
Bundsrepubliek D????tschland un dat K??nigriek Nedderland f??r dat Plattd????tsche
ok goodkennt. Theoretisch hebbt de Plattd????tschen en Anspruch dor op, dat in
Plattd????tsch vergliekbor veel investeert warrt, as in Hoochd????tsch un in all
de annern Spraken von D????tschland (de aver j??stso slecht dorstaht as
Plattd????tsch). Wo liggt dat an, dat wi dor Lichtjohren wied von af s??nd? Dat
liggt alleen dor an, dat n??ms dat infeddert! Passeert ja nix, wenn de Staat
sik an sien Plichten nich h??llt. Un de Staat gifft blot Geld, wenn he wat op
de M??tz kriggt, falls he dat nich gifft. Wenn de Plattd????tschen maal den
Staat op de M??tz haut, denn kunnen se ok Geld kriegen. Se m??ssen em aver
??nnig op de M??tz geven, dat he dat ok markt. Demos un sowat.

Wenn wi sowat harrn as de Okzitaniers mit Anaram Au Patac, denn dee dat al
veel helpen. Ehrenamtliche Kulturarbeit is good, aver ahn Aktivismus helpt
de Hobbyismus nich veel.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 14:39:04 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:39:04 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.28 (01) [DE-NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.063904.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Hannellore Hinz  <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.27 (05) [NDS]

Marlou . . .

ich m??chte von nun ab keine weiteren Beitr??ge zu deinem Thema schreiben
...es hat keinen Sinn...  Heff mien Nahsinn' all mit Hartblaut schr??wen.
Beweise die gro??en Worte nun endlich mit Taten....

Mein Gedicht  Klimawannel (eigentlicher Titel lautet anders) ist noch nicht
vollendet.

Liebe Freunde habt Verst??ndnis ...

Ut deipen Harten mien Gr??uten.

Hannelore Hinz
Schwerin Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 16:12:15 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:12:15 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.12.28 (02) [NDS]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.081215.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 02
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Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2009.12.27 (06) [NDS]

Am 25.12.2009, 20:45 Uhr, scraif Arend:

>
> Ik zal perbeern umme ???t uut te leggen:
> De???Balkenslob??? waor de buur d??rful is: Der bodenluke im heustock. Im
> heustock lag das heu auf einem meist h??lzernen Rost etwa 40 cm ??ber dem
> Boden.
>

Dank Ju, Arend,
nu weete ik je auk, wat f??r'n l??k dat was/is. Ik hadde in Kl??ntrup (1824)
siin WB blaut fuunen:
sluppen: schl??pfen; un slupwinkel - d??r was'k mi echter nig sieker, offet
dat liike wort ??ls 'slub' is.

Tof??llig sin ik vandaage auk no up annere westf??lske verwante 'r van st??t:

In ??DE HISTORIE VAN SLENNERHINKE.?? van ??mme 1630 (!), scriiwer alias
??Bernaris (= baron, oder = bern, dreck und aars?) Schockenschroyer
(Hosenmacher)??, w??rsciinlik een uut de familge 'Bevervoorde', uut de
??mmergiegende van Osnabr??gge(!), wi[d]rgiewen in Jellinghaus' Hermann siine
??NIEDERDEUTSCHE BAUERNKOMODIEN DES SIEBZEHNTEN JAHRHUNDERTS.?? (1880):

slop = schl??pfe, loch. (ingelsk sauwat 'loop hole')
balkenslop, n., bodenloch. ('trap door')
slop, n. schlu??pfe, luke. Drenthe slop: sluiphol s. bii vorbelden:

???ik klom uth dem sloppe, up den balken vom Scheppe???

Fletter-Luicke:
Nein sy heft neue klungels in den auren, men si heft nen kroygen
Boiler-wagen, dahr sit sy inne un luchtet dar
uth, asne Katte uth dem =>balken-sloppe, un heft auck ein eygen Leckey.

Un in dem Nauwort "TOT DEN [nederlandsen] LESER.":
(westf. , ndl.)
Ein slop, ne luycke
Ein balge, nen buycke
Dopvissche, Mosselen
Stertvedlen, vrusselen
Roe-Rupen, Gernelen
Tunteirse, Eerskijlen
Em knocke, nen butt

Groff-trulken, achterlossen
Starthacken, gate-bossen
Ein Luyt, ne Meyt
Gekeurt, geseyt.
Bassen, Billen
Ein Boltenholster, nen etcetera
Drumpauken, kijven
Der mule snoyre, swijgen.
Lunen, Grillen
Ne Gaus, ne Gans
Ein Rey, nen Dans
Nen Holsche, nen klump
Ne summe, ne slump.

Kanste maul seyn, wou sik uuse LL-voraulders, de dunnemaulige "Niderl??nders"
van verscillen tungenslag beholpen hadden???

=> Wan j??mmant en pdf-kopigge (mar: 2,6 MB!) 'r van hebben wilt, giewet mi
per PM besceyd.

Met echt-westf??lsken ??Goutgaun!??
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabr??gge => Berlin-Pankow

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 16:18:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:18:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.081840.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===========================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tradition

Dear Lowlanders,

I hope that all of you that celebrate it had wonderful Christmas.

I would like to suggest that whoever feels so inclined share some of their
local post-Christmas and New Year's traditions.

Hanne did some of this in German and Low Saxon already. It would be nice to
compare notes and also mention which parts of the traditions are still alive
in your lives today.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Mon Dec 28 23:06:41 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:06:41 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.28 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.150641.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L Childrens' Games

Paper airplanes in space!

-------

To see this story with its related links on the guardian.co.uk site, go to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/paper-plane-flight-record-japan

Paper plane enthusiast sets flight record

Takuo Toda targets 30-second barrier after hand-folded paper-only plane
stays in air for 26.1 seconds in Japan


This is a VERY ambitious claim ! Let me assure you that Scottish schoolboys
were making origami type paper aircraft from at least the 1930's.
While we never timed them, few wrist watches in the 1940's I am certain that
some of our Masters creations had excellent flight durations in excess
of this claimed world record. If caught in a small thermal those craft just
kept rising.
Favoured trick was rubbing the model on our shorts to give a curvature which
helped. These were proper Origami type planes made in two pieces with tail
base folded so it fitted into the pointed fusilage head prior to folding it
down to give a weighted "head" end. Plane was spread over the owner's palm,
index finger extended over body, then it was tossed while being held in a
vertical position.
Those planes were totally unlike the pathetic  one piece paper darts I have
encountered elsewhere. I wonder if Scots laddies still make them or do any
kids in other Lowlands nations ?
 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 01:43:32 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:43:32 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <MON.28.DEC.2009.174332.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 28 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Tradition" 2009.12.28 (03) [EN]

In Scotland Christmas is still not as major a celebration as The New Year.
Traditionally the custom of First Footing begins just after January 1st
begins. Families wait at home for their First Foot who really
should be a dark haired man. He will enter bearing a piece of coal, and a
bottle of Scotch. Sometimes bread and salt will also be carried.
The visited family is now FREE. They ply the guest with drink of his choice,
shortbread, and black bun (described very well BY Sandy
as a fruit loaf in pastry). Others turn up and by then all doors should be
open to all friends and even strangers. Intervisiting now begins
and goes on well into next morning. In my time up until the 1960's each home
would have a sumptious spread of cakes, cheese, and sandwiches.
Canned salmon was mandatory on some of those but Edinburgh Scots followed a
ghastly tradition of soaking the fish in vinegar "Tae gie it
sum flay-vurr".
Men and women tended to separate, women to sip sherry or cups of tea, men
getting stuck into the booze and becoming zombies.
Later in the afternoon when they finally awoke they paid for their
indulgences but then it's on to visit other friends.  "Hey Jimmy it's guid
tae see Yer huv Yer New Year" would be the welcoming cry to visitors up
until at least March.
Those days the old First Footing has largely been replaced in Edinburgh by
crowds massing around The Tron Kirk in the High Street.
Gimme the Old Ways any time.
On 29/12/2009, at 2:18 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

I would like to suggest that whoever feels so inclined share some of their
local post-Christmas and New Year's traditions.


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 20:22:12 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:22:12 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.29 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.122212.0800.>

============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.28 (04) [EN]

> From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
> Subject: LL-L Childrens' Games
>
> > Paper airplanes in space!
> > -------
> > To see this story with its related links on the guardian.co.uk site,
> > go
> > to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/27/paper-plane-flight-record-japan
> > Paper plane enthusiast sets flight record
> > Takuo Toda targets 30-second barrier after hand-folded paper-only
> > plane stays in air for 26.1 seconds in Japan
>
>
> This is a VERY ambitious claim ! Let me assure you that Scottish
> schoolboys were making origami type paper aircraft from at least the
> 1930's.
> While we never timed them, few wrist watches in the 1940's I am
> certain that some of our Masters creations had excellent flight
> durations in excess
> of this claimed world record. If caught in a small thermal those craft
> just kept rising.

Tom,

I made these planes too, but I wouldn't call them proper origami planes
as the two sheets of paper were different sizes and you did need to tear
the nose down the middle to ensure that the tail stayed in.

I doubt if the use of thermals is allowed in the world record! Thirty
seconds is a very long time indeed for a paper aeroplane to stay
airborne.

I've made various other styles of plane, and the one that stays up
longest is one designed with the paper rolled and flattened to make the
leading edge of the wing much thicker than the rest of the wing. This is
nearer to origami but tends to need a paper clip or something to weight
it. It does, however, fly very flat and shallow, so it can go long
distances before reaching the ground, and any unsatisfactory aspects to
the flying can be ironed out by curving the rear of the wings to make it
fly straighter if it's veering to the side, and also make it fly
shallower so that it goes further.

That sort of plane is what I'd think of as suitable for a world record:
you don't really throw it, you just set it moving gently and leave it to
do its own flying. The Scottish, and judging from the chap's throwing
technique in the photo in the article, also the Japanese planes are
rather crude and the time aloft would seem to depend on the thrower's
strength as much as the design of the plane.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 20:45:00 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 12:45:00 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.29 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.124500.0800.>

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2009.12.26 (03) [EN]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources
>
> Dear Sandy et al.,
>
> I remind you of our exchange about a clearer link to our archive. (See
> below.)
>
> Today I (twice) added a more obvious link to our front page:
> http://lowlands-l.net/
>
> It leads to a page with a link and instruction:
> http://lowlands-l.net/archive.php

Thanks, Ron, better!

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 29 21:50:40 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:50:40 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (03) [NDS]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.135040.0800.>

============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.28 (01) [DE-NDS]

 Hallo Marcus, Heiko, all,

mi is infulln, l??tt pd. Filme usw. gifft dat ja al in't Web, wiss kennt Ji
ok http://plattcast.de/ un http://plattpod.de/. De een schient noch ganz
good to diegen, de anner hett sachs siet Sommer den Bedreev instellt -- wat
ja mennig Gr??nnen hebben kann. Beed Sieden s??nd nich so ganz bekannt woorn,
d??cht mi. Dat sleit anschienen op Marcus sin Siet dal, as he seggt, in't Web
s??cht de L?? sik dat nich. Dat mutt allerdings ja nich heten, dat en Platt-TV
nich ok en Flop warrn kunn. Wat kunn een vun solk Sieden lehren? Weer't
intressant, mit de Makers to snacken un klook to kriegen, wat de f??r
Bes??kers kregen hebbt un wat se daan hebbt, dat se mehr bekannt warrt? Ik
heff mit beed Makers bloots ganz bil??pig Kuntakt hatt. Een davun hett wat
mit'n NDR to kriegen, meen ik. Kennt een de wat nehger? Schulln wi/schull ik
de mal anticken?

Ik w??nsch all Maten en godes nieges Johr! Hartlich!

Marlou

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 04:00:13 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:00:13 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <TUE.29.DEC.2009.200013.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2009 - Volume 04
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Folks,

Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
aspect that requires serious consideration.

Honestly and personally speaking, I agree with all of them to some degree. I
feel that such possibilities ought to be looked into but that at the same
time any type of venture ought to be extremely well planned so as to prevent
what in Australia is called a "fizzogh" (as in a fireworks rocket heading
for the sky with "Fzzzzz ..." and then the disappointed public calling "Ogh
..." because the promising rocket just fizzled out without the expected
bang).

As usual, it pays to look across our Lowlands fence to see what is being
done on behalf of minority languages similarly endangered.

For one thing, I recommend taking a look at the new video section within the
Web presence of *Forverts* (??????????????????????), the Yiddish counterpart of the
newer English-language *Forward*, an American Jewish weekly that has been
around, first as a daily, since 1897, based mostly on the then German Social
Democratic newspaper *Vorw??rts*.

http://yiddish.forward.com/forverts/video

Since all of it is in Yiddish, most of you will understand little to nothing
(though more experienced German speakers will at least catch the general
drift). But you will probably understand the format used here. It consists
mostly of a mixture of documentary reports and video-taped interviews. For
instance, at the moment the first video is about the 100th anniversary
Yiddish Congress in Jerusalem, the second one is about Yiddish-inclined
visitors from Paris, the third is about an assassinated Jewish Soviet
writer, the fourth about the inauguration of the *Forverts* Association, the
fifth about a Yiddish book fair, the sixth about a meeting of a Yiddish
authors??? association in New York City, the seventh a conversation with
Shmuel Atzmon, the current director of YidiSHpil (a Yiddish theater in Tel
Aviv), the eighth a talk by Alex Dufner from Australia, and the ninth about
a Yiddish theater festival.

Anyway, this is one of the efforts put forth on behalf of Yiddish. Perhaps
it inspires.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:02:54 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:02:54 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2009.12.30 (01) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.080254.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L Events

 For info,
I hope the Lowlander community will submit a lot of papers.
I think Collin Williams, an invited speaker, was once on this Lowlands List.
Regards,
Roger
----
Date: 07-Oct-2010 - 09-Oct-2010
Location: Bloomington, IN, USA
Contact Person: Deborah Piston-Hatlen
Meeting Email: eurlangsindiana.edu
Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~eurlangs<http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eeurlangs>
Linguistic Field(s): Applied Linguistics; General Linguistics; Language
Documentation; Ling & Literature; Sociolinguistics
Call Deadline: 15-Mar-2010

Meeting Description:
*The 'Minority Languages in Europe'* conference will explore aspects of
European minority languages and related cultural issues.

Invited Speakers:
- Jos?? Ignacio Hualde, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
- Bernat Joan i Mari, Secretari de Pol??tica Ling????stica de la Generalitat de
Catalunya
- Claude Truchot, Universit?? de Strasbourg
- Jean-Luc Vigneux, Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Ch'Lanchron, author,
singer,composer, translator
- Colin Williams, Cardiff University

Call for Papers

Abstracts are invited for 20-minute talks (plus 10 minutes for discussion)
on any aspect of European minority languages and related cultural issues,
including but not limited to:

- Sociolinguistics
- Geopolitical issues
- Cultural vitality
- Language endangerment & revitalization
- Linguistic issues: descriptive & theoretical
- Orthography/literacy
- Education
- Fieldwork/research issues
- Language & identity
- Media & technology

Abstracts should be no more than one page in length (a second page may be
included for examples and references), in 12-point type. All margins should
be at least one inch wide (or 2.5 cm). Authors are asked to submit their
abstracts online using our online submission page:
http://linguistlist.org/confcustom/eurlangs_2010

Click on the Abstract Submission link in the top right corner of the page
and follow the instructions provided. Please be sure to include all
requested information on the abstract submissions page. To facilitate the
review process, please indicate the general topic addressed in the proposal.
Preference will be given to presentations not duplicated at other major
conferences. Authors are asked to indicate prior or planned presentations of
their papers.
Email: eurlangsindiana.edu
Website: http://www.indiana.edu/~eurlangs<http://www.indiana.edu/%7Eeurlangs>

Organizing Committee: Julie Auger, Deborah Piston-Hatlen, Kevin Rottet, Rex
Sprouse

Sponsored by the Indiana University West European Studies National Resource
Center
---------------
Julie Auger, Associate Professor
Director of Graduate Studies, French Linguistics
Depts. of French & Italian and Linguistics
Indiana University
1020 E. Kirkwood Ave.
Bloomington, IN 47405
USA
Phone: (812) 855-7958/7293
Fax:     (812) 855-8877
Email:  jauger at indiana.edu

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:04:28 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:04:28 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.30 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.080428.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Games" 2009.12.29 (01) [EN]

Obviously not our design which was origami although we had never heard of
the word then.
A rectangle of paper was used one corner of which was folded over diagonally
then same repeated on other side.
This delineated a square with saltire grooving. The lower unfolded portion
was then folded up on itself, scored strongly and torn off,
this formed the basis of the tail. Next steps are tricky to describe in
words but no cutting or tearing was involved. A saltire was then formed on
one end of the tail, this was folded to a point and incorporated in the
pointed end of the main body which was then folded down to retain it.
All made from a single rectangle of paper.

On 30/12/2009, at 6:22 AM, Lowlands-L List wrote:

I made these planes too, but I wouldn't call them proper origami planes
as the two sheets of paper were different sizes and you did need to tear
the nose down the middle to ensure that the tail stayed in.


 Best Regards
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
An honest man's the noblest work of God (Robert Burns)

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:13:26 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:13:26 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (03) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.081326.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 03
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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===============================================

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Folks,

Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
aspect that requires serious consideration.
Well, I view it from a very far distance, but noted two things during the
holidays that I wouldn't have seen when I first studied German some fifty
years ago.  One:  my wife bought me a Christmas CD called Weihnachts
Schlager, and one of the "hits" on it was Wedder Mol Wiehnacht.  Two:  we
attended the German service Christmas morning at St. Johannes Ev. Luth.
Kirche in Hamilton, and since I found the Predigt a bit boring, thumbed
through the hymnal which was new since the last time I had been there.  Out
of some 700 offerings, four were in what they called "Platt."  Too little,
too late?

Ed Alexander, Ontario, Canada

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.29 (04) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>


> Subject: Language promotion
>
> Folks,
>
> Mostly in Low Saxon (Low German), our Marcus and Marlou (and to a certain
> extent Hannelore and I) have been brainstorming about more prominent media
> presence of Low Saxon, utilizing up-to-date multimedia technology, such as
> web-logging, including video blogging. If I understood him correctly, Marcus
> seems to fantasize about a type of media presence that needs not be
> specifically and laboriously sought out by the public and by virtue of this
> attracts or recruits potential users of the language or at least makes the
> language acceptable and interesting to a larger section of the public. (I'm
> not sure if this is realistic since everyone must make some sort of effort
> to access any type of media outlet, but perhaps Marcus meant something that
> quickly turns into a household name, something that even people that are not
> language activists would want to tune into because it's a place to be.) Our
> Hanne cautioned the two M's, saying that an undertaking of this type and
> magnitude requires a lot of careful planning, that it can't be put together
> overnight, and that especially maintenance of momentum and quality is an
> aspect that requires serious consideration.
>
> Honestly and personally speaking, I agree with all of them to some degree.
> I feel that such possibilities ought to be looked into but that at the same
> time any type of venture ought to be extremely well planned so as to prevent
> what in Australia is called a "fizzogh" (as in a fireworks rocket heading
> for the sky with "Fzzzzz ..." and then the disappointed public calling "Ogh
> ..." because the promising rocket just fizzled out without the expected
> bang).
>
>  That's true, but I didn't just fantasize ("fantasieren" in German has a
ring of "sillyness" or even an unhealthy mental state, I hope that
submeaning wasn't intended here ;-) I'd rather call it "musings", "food for
thought" or something like that) about some "type of media presence", but
very specifically about a TV station.

The theoreticist Marshall McLuhan has coined the term Gutenberg galaxy (<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Galaxy>). The Gutenberg galaxy is a
world in which 'print' is the most influential, the key medium. McLuhan
proposed (in 1962), that the Gutenberg galaxy was at its end. Modern
electronic mass media would become the new key medium of a new age. This new
age was later named McLuhan galaxy (a world in which TV is the key medium)
or Turing galaxy (a world in which computers/the internet are the key
medium). We are going towards the Turing galaxy but the McLuhan galaxy has
not yet ended (and TV will stay to be very influential even after the end of
the McLuhan galaxy). While the Gutenberg galaxy was never able to do much
harm to mainly unprinted languages like Low Saxon, the McLuhan galaxy
immediately was able to replace Low Saxon with German, cause TV unlike print
is spoken word.

Therefore, so I believe, a TV station is an absolute must-have, if we want
to maintain a language. At the moment Low Saxon develops centrifugal. Low
Saxon in the Netherlands develops towards Dutch, Low Saxon in Germany
develops towards German, Mennonite Low Saxon develops towards whatever is
the national language of their place of living. A common TV station would
establish a new common public and would change the development to a more
centripetal one. A development where Low Saxon dialects take other Low Saxon
dialects as a model and not foreign languages.

A TV station would be a place to advertise or to inform the interested
public about Low Saxon publications, music etc. No artist, writer or
whatever can be successful without people knowing about him. I can easily
name dozens of modern American musicians and every other German can do so
too. I doubt that most Americans can name many modern German musicians. Is
that cause Americans make better music? No, it's cause the information flow
from America to Germany is better than vice versa. Stars are never born by
word of mouth, they are made by enduring media attention. So the whole Low
Saxon cultural scene would benefit from a TV station.

And most importantly: You don't have to pay for watching TV and TV is easy!
You switch it on and lean back on your couch. For books you have to pay and
books don't "work" any more, if you are tired out after a long day and stop
to pay attention to all the squiggly little symbols. TV is still perfectly
enjoyable without having to exert your brain too much. Internet too is very
complicated to everybody not using it every day. And the computer too stops
doing anything without constant user input.

That may sound like I overemphasize the complicatedness of books or
computers, but many people are like that. I guess, most people on this list
are quite confident to use books and computers, but there are millions out
there who are not. Many people just want to push a button and passively
consume some show.

I am fully aware that a useful TV station has costs in the magnitude of over
100 Million Euro. This is, so my estimation, about 100-fold the sum of _all_
state spending in aid of Low Saxon at the moment. So we won't get a TV
station anytime soon. That's not realistic without major changes. But it's
still _necessary_ if we want Low Saxon to prosper. And it's not an undue
demand. Germany and the Netherlands both officially recognized Low Saxon as
a language and as worth of preservation. If that is not seen as "some piece
of paper we signed to appease some people", but if they _mean_ it, then they
have to invest more money.

It's sad to say, but politicians _never_ just do the things that are
"right",  they do how they please and just ask "can I get through with it?"
If they sign an international treaty that aims at protecting a language and
then do nothing to fulfil the requirements of the treaty, that's obviously
not "right". But as long as no protesters march to the town halls or
parliaments, as long as there are no trials for violating treaties, they can
get through with it.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language promotion

Marcus, "fantasize" does not necessarily connote the idea of "delusional"
German *fantasieren* has. I meant it more in the sense of "dreaming" or
"imagining".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 30 16:23:36 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:23:36 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Members" 2009.12.30 (04) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.082336.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 04
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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===============================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Members

Dear Lowlanders,

As we approach the last day of 2009 with all of its Hogmanay and other types
of New Year's Eve merriment, I need to remind you that another two reasons
for merriment will be the birthdays of our long-time members Sandy Fleming (
<sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>) and Roger Thijs (<roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
).

Happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 00:23:53 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 16:23:53 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.162353.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 05
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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===============================================

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (03) [EN]

 Hello Marcus & Reinhard!

Thank you, Reinhard, for the Yiddish link. It is perfectly understandable
:-), and obviously all the videos are on Youtube as well. So they use
several platforms simultaneaously.

Marcus, you write: "So we won't get a TV station anytime soon. That's not
realistic without major changes. But it's still _necessary_ if we want Low
Saxon to prosper." This sounds desolate. Do you mean to say that Low Saxon
has done, since there won't be a TV station? Let us not give in so easily! I
am confident Platt can be kept up without a TV station. Hanne, before she
left the thread, was very positive it could; I think she may be right,
although a TV station would be a fine thing to have. Let us not demand the
moon and otherwise resign. Let us find small steps that really can be taken.
What can be done with the energies and money that now *are *in the pd.
issue? Forgive me if this has been discussed many times before in this
forum; but it looks to me we are up to something concrete, something that
can be *done*, and I would love to know what it is.

Your remarks about the centrifugal development sound quite plausible.
Suppose we had settled what the "center" of Platt should be, what could be
done about this? It sounds like an organizing and communicating issue to me.
Now I am a member of the pd. Raad f??r Sleswig-Holsteen
http://www.heimatbund.de/niederdeutsch/ndrat.php. This board has done some
very good work in school politics lately; in some other respects they are
more conventional and rather slow. But I learned that the Raad in
Sleswig-Holsteen is the most active of all Bundesl??nder; most other northern
german Bundesl??nder have only crippled versions or no pd. Raad at all. In
Hamborg however things seem to be changing. Maybe there are other pd. "lobby
groups" in other regions, in or outside Germany, that might "represent" the
pd. community of their region. Could anything be done by a common movement
of such organizations? I admit I am quite a failure at penetrating
administrative structures & bureaucracies. But at best such a movement might
even exert pressure as to (the money needed for) better media presence of
Platt...

Thoughtful greetings,

Marlou

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Language promotion

You're welcome, Marlou.

"Perfectly understandable"?! Are you sure?

Well, I guess the subject matter kept the number of words from Hebrew,
Aramaic and Slavic down, so you may have guessed their meaning within the
given contexts. But I remember frequent use of Hebrew-derived expressions
like *bekhlal* (< Hebrew *bekhlal* ????????) 'in general', *avade* (< Hebrew *
waday* ????????) 'of course', 'certainly', 'definitely', *mekhaber* (< Hebrew *
meHaber* ????????) 'author', and *koydem-kol* (< Hebrew *qodem-kol* ???????? ???? )
'first of all'. Guessing those would have been difficult. Was that what the
smiley was about?

Guten Rutsch!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 01:58:29 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 17:58:29 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]
Message-ID: <WED.30.DEC.2009.175829.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 30 December 2009 - Volume 06
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]

Hello Reinhard,

upps, an empty answer just slipped out, sorry! Yes, that was what the smiley
was about. "Perfectly understandable" means: I got what the people talked
about, and I mostly got what they wanted to say on the matter. I could have
paraphrased it in German (or Platt :-)), if no great detail would be
required. For a foreign language that is quite good, isn't it? I feel proud
and satisfied :-)

Hartlich!

Marlou

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

You're welcome, Marlou.

"Perfectly understandable"?! Are you sure?

... Was that what the smiley was about?

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language promotion

Yep, Marlou. I'm insanely proud of you.

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Marcus, you write: "So we won't get a TV station anytime soon. That's not
> realistic without major changes. But it's still _necessary_ if we want Low
> Saxon to prosper." This sounds desolate. Do you mean to say that Low Saxon
> has done, since there won't be a TV station? Let us not give in so easily! I
> am confident Platt can be kept up without a TV station.
>
I try to look at it in a positivist way most of the time, but if we are
realistic, Low Saxon is in very bad shape. My own home area (the only area I
have first hand experiences) is a very rural area, that has maintained Low
Saxon as a daily mean of communication in several settings. I don't think
there are any areas, that have maintained Low Saxon much better than my home
area (together with rural areas along all the Northern Sea coast), except
perhaps for Eastern Frisia. Westfalia, Eastfalia, Mark Brandenburg have
almost completely lost Low Saxon as a daily mean of communication.
In my area the generation 70+ has Low Saxon as mother tongue and they tend
to speak Low Saxon whenever applicable, cause they feel uncomfortable with
German (they can still speak it perfectly fluent, but it's still not the
same as their native language). In the generation 50-70 most people speak
Low Saxon very well and have learned it natively, but they are so accustomed
to German, that the nativity bonus doesn't play out. They often feel better
with German. People 30-50 years old may speak a reasonable Low Saxon, but
they generally feel more comfortable with German. Even among the youth there
are some rare native speakers. The more you pay attention, the more you will
spot I realized. Sometimes it happens that by pure chance you notice that a
person you have conversed with in German since a decade happens to speak Low
Saxon at home and you never knew. That's cause German is the total dominant
_default_ between younger people. I don't know anybody under the age of 40
who is more comfortable in Low Saxon than in German. When working at my
plattmakers.de dictionary I realied that at least 70% of the vocabulary that
can be found in older dictionaries ('older' meaning like a 1930s dictionary)
is "asleep" today. Not completely forgotten, but not used anymore, cause you
cannot rely, that your conversation partner knows the word.

Competent speakers are much too old. Nobody young enough to have young
children is competent enough to transmit the language to a new generation.
If the generation in the child-bearing age of 25-40 would teach Low Saxon to
their children, it would be the ugliest Low Saxon imaginable. We cannot rely
on in-family transmission of the language. It's much too late. So we need
some way of spreading the language outside families.
TV is no good solution for this. Cause language aquisition from TV would
lead to an ugly lowest common denominator Low Saxon. No, language aquistion
must be done in kindergarten and school by competent speakers. TV can only
tune in when the foundation is already lead. TV can support interest in the
language and awareness and positively influence identity. But it is no good
replacement for face to face language aquisition from competent speakers.

We need support from schools and kindergartens. Not only some model projects
like in Simonswoold, but all over the country. This cannot be done with
voluntary helpers. We need financial commitment from the states in this area
too. That will be even more expensive than the TV station, I guess.

Only a TV station without school support would be a great start. Only school
support for Low Saxon without a TV station would be great too. But only a
combination of both would generate the most effect.

 Hanne, before she left the thread, was very positive it could; I think she
> may be right, although a TV station would be a fine thing to have. Let us
> not demand the moon and otherwise resign.
>
I do not resign, I try to do my part. But if Earth is inhabitable anything
but demanding the moon (or Mars) is actually the same as resigning. We
cannot stay where we are, we have to make leaps or we will vanish.

 Let us find small steps that really can be taken. What can be done with the
> energies and money that now /are /in the pd. issue?
>
We can arrange a humane death for Low Saxon. Really, I see exactly _no_
chance that Low Saxon keeps to be a living language without massive
additional engagement. It will take many decades until all the living
speakers are dead, but there is no chance that Low Saxon will be anything
else than some kind of retro language like Cornish in a century or a century
and a half.

 Forgive me if this has been discussed many times before in this forum; but
> it looks to me we are up to something concrete, something that can be
> /done/, and I would love to know what it is.
>  Your remarks about the centrifugal development sound quite plausible.
> Suppose we had settled what the "center" of Platt should be, what could be
> done about this?
>
If Earth would be hollow you would be able to hover in some spheric area
around the center. A gravitational body doesn't need to have a "center" like
a point. All of the matter produces gravity. And every dialect emits gravity
too. There doesn't need to be a definite "center" and the body can still
hold together. Low Saxon's problem at the moment is, that it is torn apart
by gravitational shear forces from several massive objects that came too
close to our planet. Thr only option for the planet to solve this problem,
is to gain distance from the mass objects so that the gravity outweighs the
shear forces again.

 It sounds like an organizing and communicating issue to me. Now I am a
> member of the pd. Raad f??r Sleswig-Holsteen
> http://www.heimatbund.de/niederdeutsch/ndrat.php. This board has done some
> very good work in school politics lately; in some other respects they are
> more conventional and rather slow. But I learned that the Raad in
> Sleswig-Holsteen is the most active of all Bundesl??nder; most other northern
> german Bundesl??nder have only crippled versions or no pd. Raad at all. In
> Hamborg however things seem to be changing. Maybe there are other pd. "lobby
> groups" in other regions, in or outside Germany, that might "represent" the
> pd. community of their region. Could anything be done by a common movement
> of such organizations? I admit I am quite a failure at penetrating
> administrative structures & bureaucracies. But at best such a movement might
> even exert pressure as to (the money needed for) better media presence of
> Platt...
>

I'm not a good networker and I'm not a good leader. I'm just a good
theoreticist and I'm okay at working on my own little things. Whenever I try
to do little steps I start to say "This is piecemeal." and I start to hate
that little-steppism and I fantasize about how it would be done _right_. And
so I always end up with plans how to rescue the world, that are completely
unrealistic on a pragmatic level.

Marcus Buck

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 16:01:59 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:01:59 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.31 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
Message-ID: <THU.31.DEC.2009.080159.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 31 December 2009 - Volume 01
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Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]

Leve Marcus, Din Beschrieven vun de Laag vun Platt stimmt. Leider. Un wenn
dat geiht, as dat bi Minschen so geiht -- mit beten goden Willn,
beten Schullertucken un ahn veel Energie --, denn geiht dat ok in de Gr??tt.
Dat s??nd sachs bloots so trusch??llige Goodminschen as wi, de da noch nich
nalaten w??llt. Bloots twee Saken:

1: Dat mit de Kinnergoorns is j??st dat, an wat de pd. Raat f??r SH as neegst
groot Projekt bigahn will -- s??nnerlich de pd. Utbillen vun
Kinnergoorner/schen. Wi beweegt villicht doch wat.

2: Keen vun us kann allens ween. Du b??st en goden Theoretiker, ik b??n good
in l??tte Schreed -- un en Nettwarkersch b??n ik eentlich ok, man mehr b??n ik
Warkersch as Nettwarkersch. Wi brukt solk L?? as Di, de ut de
Vagelperspektiev op allens kiekt, liekso n??dig as de, de nerrn anpackt, un
de, de hier un da de richtigen L?? kennt. Denn kunnen wi wat beschicken. Giff
nich up! *Wat *wi beschickt, ??verleggt wi nauer in't niege Johr. Okay?

Ik gr????t all hartlich un w??nsch en sch??nes 2010!

Marlou

 ----- Original Message -----

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (05) [EN]
 I'm not a good networker and I'm not a good leader. I'm just a good
theoreticist and I'm okay at working on my own little things. Whenever I try
to do little steps I start to say "This is piecemeal." and I start to hate
that little-steppism and I fantasize about how it would be done _right_. And
so I always end up with plans how to rescue the world, that are completely
unrealistic on a pragmatic level.

----------

 From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2009.12.30 (06) [EN]

Hallo Ron,

(fast ein Rechenschaftsbericht zum Jahresende, aber ein kl.
Erfahrungsbericht)

Ende 2004 erarbeiteten wir "Landesheimatbund Mecklenburg-Vorpommern e.V
(Prof. Dr. Horst Wernicke Pr??sident) mit der Landesregierung/Kultur" ein
Projekt f??r einen Sprachkurs "Niederdeutsch" in Kita's und Schulen, Bereich
Nordwestmecklenburg, Realschule "K??the Kollwitz" 19217 Rehna.
Das hei??t, dieses Projekt mu??ten wir erst erarbeiten. Wir taten es mit
Eifer, Freude und Liebe etwas f??r die Kinder zu tun. Auserw??hlte Experten,
reich an Erfahrungen, wurden berufen. Wir berieten gemeinsam unseren Weg.
Mitmacher waren Kinderg??rtnerinnen, Lehrerinnen, Autoren, Schauspieler,
Unterhaltungsk??nstler, ein bekannter Komponist/Chorleiter (Lieder im
Jahreslauf, alte und neue Kinderlieder u.v. mehr; er reiste immer mit seinem
Musikinstrument an), eine Tanzp??dagogin (T??nze in Verbindung mit dem
Brauchtum wie u.a. Sommer/Jahreszeiten, Ernte usw.).
Es w??rde ein zu langer Bericht werden, z??hlte ich hier alles auf.

Wir starteten dieses Projekt am 2.12.2004. Ich durfte in Rehna den Anfang
machen und die Landesregierung/Kultur (Dr. B.) war auch zugegen. Auch meine
Treckfidel, es war ein toller Start!
So trafen wir uns  regelm????ig  bei Wind und Wetter jede Woche in Rehna mit
den Kinderg??rtnerinnen und und und.
Und sie kamen aus ihren Bereichen (D??rfer, D??rfchen), oft m??de und
abgek??mpft nach ihrem stressigen Arbeitstag mit Kindern, sie arbeiteten
flei??ig mit und waren begeistert. Dieser Weg, unmittelbar mit ihnen
gemeinsam zu arbeiten, helfen, weiterbilden, Mut machen, brachte auch den
Erfolg. Ein Vertreter Dr. B. oder H.? von der Landesregierung/Kultur war oft
zugegen und war mit unseren Leistungen zufrieden.

Nach gut f??nf Monaten konnten sich die Kinder in einem ??ffentlichen,
festlichen Programm (Kleintheater) mit ihren erworbenen vielseitigen
Kenntnissen ihren Eltern, Onkel und Tanten und Omis, auch Uromis und vielen
ihnen gewogenen G??sten vorstellen.
Alle lernten aus dieser Erfahrung und bem??hten sich sp??ter immer wieder, den
gegebenen M??glichkeiten, noch bessere Wege zu finden.

Auch aus meiner Klasse VHS haben junge Lehrerinnen mit ihren
Plattdeutschgruppen 1. und 2. Preise in Wettbewerben (Wi snacken Platt)
belegt. Drauf bin auch ich stolz. Heute treten sie gelegentlich mit ihren
kl. Programmen zu Geburtstagen oder anderen Anl??ssen auf.

Als mehrmaliges Jurymitglied konnte ich mir zugleich einen ??berblick ??ber
den Stand und Pflege und Weiterkommen hier in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern machen.
Meine Zuarbeit erf??llt mich mit Dankbarkeit.

Dank auch dir, lieber Ron.

Das alte Jahr klingt aus...
Allen ein gl??ckliches 2010!

Herzlich gemeint.
Hanne

http://www.regierung-mv.de/cms2/Regierungsportal_prod/Regierungsportal/de/bm/Themen/Kultur/Aufgabengebiete/Heimatpflege/Landesheimatverband_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_e.V./index.jsp

http://www.ndr.de/unternehmen/organisation/rundfunkrat/rundfunkrat4_org_ndr1154_p-10.html

http://www.meck-pomm-hits.de/contenido-4.4.5/cms/front_content.php?idart=884

?

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From lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 31 16:13:14 2009
From: lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM (Lowlands-L List)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:13:14 -0800
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2009.12.31 (02) [EN]
Message-ID: <THU.31.DEC.2009.081314.0800.>

===============================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 31 December 2009 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===============================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Dear Lowlanders,

This morning I saw the fireworks show in/from "Synny" (Sydney, Australia)
and bore in mind that our friends in New Zealand had their transition into
2010 a couple of hours earlier.

As the new common year works its way westwards, I wish all of you and yours,
in fact *all* of us, nothing but the best for the twelve months ahead.

It is time to start preparing for our 15th anniversary in late April and
early May. For one thing, I suggest you consider helping to expand our
anniversary presentation (http://lowlands-l.net/anniversary/). Please ask me
if you have specific questions about that.

And, again, happy birthday, Sandy and Roger!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

?

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