LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.24 (03) [A/E]

Tue Feb 24 15:59:02 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 24 February 2009 - Volume 02
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar"

Beste Mike,

You wrote:

*
*
* R/R wrote:*
* > Switzerland has four different languages.*
*  *
* As opposed to Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia-Hercegovina which have
three SAME languages!
;-) (maybe by now Montenegirn is a fourth?)*

They hàve been the same. Until people started drawing borders and the big
"divorce" began in former Yugoslavia.

We experienced something similar in Northern Belgium. As soon as you split
Brabant (Noord-Brabant vs. Antwerp/Vlaams-Brabant), Vlaanderen
(Zeeuws-Vlaanderen vs. West/Oost-Vlaanderen) and (to a lesser extent)
Limburg, you will have different communities, watching different
tv-stations, reading different newspapers and getting different education.
People focus on different things, in short: they grow apart. Their dialects
as well. Which means, that even in today's world of greater mobility and
regiolects instead of dialects, a state border is still very much what it
is: a border, a divide.

I remember reading a study about how dialects along the Belgo-Dutch border
were still very similar until mid 20th century. Dialects gradually changed
from one village to another (walking distance defined one's world) and there
was no strong centralizing force/culture that would set an example or become
a standard. Then quite suddenly, the scale on which culture was happening
became much bigger. Radio and TV definitely changed that landscape. The
linguistic gap between South and North started widening. The continuum was
torn apart. The Flemish regiolect now stops south of the border and the
Dutch one halts at the other side.

Similarly, if ever the Internet would split the world in half, I'm quite
sure this would have devastating effects on culture too. The levelling
effect would be tremendous, whereas now we have something that almost grew
in an organic way. OK, there's chaos as well, but that's good I think.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle

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From: G TIGHE <tighe at sympatico.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.23 (02) [E]

'Many Scots who speak English do so with a Scottish accent.'

And inversely my Australian  wife assures me, that  after over 30 years in
Australia, when I revert to Scots on visiting Edinburgh

I do so with an Australian accent I did not even know I had.

 Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Hi Folk:

After 40 years in Canada, I am readily  identified as Scottish. However on
returning to Scotland I am heard to be Canadian.
My first days here I spent a lot of effort repeating my words. I then
thought I spoke well, and clearly the Queen's English.
I realized later that it was less my accent and more my vocabulary.
I saw the licht, I had discovered that bonny beasty, the guid Scots tongue.

kind regards

Gerald

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language diversity

Hello, Gerald! Long time no hear.

It sure is a treat.

Luc, what you wrote regarding "intralingual" alienation due to political
boundaries and subsequent national centralization is certainly true in many,
many cases throughout the world. Other such cases are the Low Frankish and
Low Saxon varieties of Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, most pronounced
the borders between the Dutch-speaking world and the German-speaking world.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From: Tom Mc Rae <thomas.mcrae at bigpond.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.23 (06) [E]

On 24/02/2009, at 8:39 AM, James Wilson <jawi2300 at gmail.com> wrote:

Tom, do people ask you whether you are Scots when you are in Edinburgh?

 No problems in that area. Mind you first day there, after over 30 years,
when riding a bus there were two wmen behind me speaking a langiuage I
thought was of Scandinavean origin. As I listened further I realised it was
brioad Edinburgh.

Regards

Tom Mc Rae

Brisbane

AUSTRALIA

"Oh wad some power the Giftie gie us,

Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Robert Burns

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity" 2009.02.23 (06) [E]

Hi James,

"'But it's our choice in the end, nobody's forcing us, not anymore.'

Yes there is, you!  And many others of a similar attitude. "

You seem to have the impression that I'm anti-dialect in general and
anti-Geordie in particular.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  All
my comments are observations.  I am saying that Standard English has
increasingly taken over in many areas where it wasn't prevalent; that's a
statement of what I see, not approval.

I didn't beat my Geordie colleague with a big stick till he stopped
using dialectial words, he made that decision himself.  That makes sense in
Nottingham, where he lives, but it doesn't 30 miles north of Newcastle, yet
he doesn't use them there either.  But that's his choice, nobody else's.
Wrong choice in my opinion, but, contrary to your assumption, I'm in no
position to force anybody - nor do I want to.  Incidentally, why do imagine
the world would jump to obey the linguistic diktats of a geotechnical
engineer in Derby, even if he gave any?

These are observations; you may not like the observations, I don't in many
respects, but I'm not going to stop saying things just because people don't
like to hear them.

Why on Earth would I be envious of people responding favourably to Geordie
accents on the telephone? I do.  But every call-centre speaker I hear,
whether their accents are Geordie, Scouse, Scots of various types or indeed
Delhi or Mumbai, use those accents to pronounce Standard English, because a
Geordie and a Mumbaian (is that a word?) have a better chance of
understanding each other if they do.

Personally, I'd be happier if somebody else's speech had been adopted as the
World Language; there are far, far more speakers of English outside England
than in it, and I believe that much of the loss of regional speech can be
laid at the door of that fact.  But I've got to live with it.  And I repeat,
if people want to preserve their dialects, they'd better get on with it, and
not wait for orders from me, cos I ain't giving any.

Paul

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From: atdelange at iburst.co.za
Subject: LL-L "Language diversity"

Liewe Laaglanders,

Ek skryf in Afrikaans om vir mede laaglanders ‘n bietjie oefening daarin tegee.

Wees asseblief versigtig. Die kwessie van meer as een taal in ‘n nasie
waarvan een die botoon voer, is vol slaggate. Maar moenie wegdyns nie.
Ditis net die
toekoms wat verander kan word.

Kinders wat van babadae in die huis ‘n taal praat wat nie die hooftaal is
nie, leer om in die huistaal te luister, te verstaan en te dink. Hulle
ervarings ontluik (“emerge”) tot stomkennis (“tacit knowledge”, Polanyi). Hy
skryf “we know more than what we speak”. Om van stomkennis te ontluik tot
vormkennis (dit wat gepraat en geskryf kan word) in dieselfde huistaal is ‘n
reuse taak.

Om eerder ontluikings van stomkennis tot vormkennis in die hooftaal te
verwag is waansinnig, iets wat as taalontmagtiging bekend staan. Dit is
omdat stomkennis van die hooftaal naas die huistaal nodig is. Dit klink
teenstrydig. Maar lank voordat die kind taalkunde moet bestudeer, moet die
kind ervarings en dus stomkennis van die huistaal se werking besit. Sou die
kind in die hooftaal (sonder stomkennis daarvan) probeer praat of skryf, is
die uitkoms ten beste papegaaiagtig.

Taalontmagtiging vind plaas as gevolg van verskeie redes: kultureel,
polities, ekonomies en godsdienstig. Taalontmagtiging belemmer skeppende en
ondersoekende denke. Taalontmagtiging verskraal die drang na vryheid,
selfverwesentliking en rentmeesterskap. Taalontmagtiging is die grootste
faktor wat tot misdaad en sosiale verval lei onder minder gegoede mense.

Dit neem twee of meer geslagte om taalontmagtiging om te keer. Selfs dan
moet die huistaal nie gedwing word om aan die standaard vorm daarvan te
voldoen nie. Dit lei tot ‘n verskuilde taalontmagtiging. Daar is fyn nuansesin
enige omgewing se dialek wat nie in die standaard vorm daarvan voorkom nie.

Na my oordeel doen enige mens wat die verskeidenheid tussen tale en binne ‘n
taal onderdruk vir watter rede ook al, net so ‘n groot skade as mense wat
biodiversiteit verskraal. Miskien moet ons begin om ‘n tegniese term soos
linguadiversiteit te gebruik. Ek dink dat die aanvoeling vir
linguadiversiteit op die LL poslys van die beste ter wêreld is. Mag ons net
daarop verbeter.

Onlangs het UNESCO ‘n lys gepubliseer van meer as 2500 tale wat krities
bedreig is en dus binnekort kan uitsterf. Dit is skrikwekkend, enige dag so
erg as die geval met mikrobes, plante en diere. Hoe kan dit vermy word? Deur
te eis dat meertaligheid oor die ganse samelewing, veral openbare
instellings soos hopitale, howe en skole, eerbiedig sal word. Deur verder
mense aan die kaak te stel wat net een, oorheersende taal wil gebruik.
Moedig aan eerder as om te bots.

Met ander woorde, mense se gesindheid oor taal moet geleidelik verander word
tot erkenning en bevordering van die verskeidenheid daarvan. Verandering oor
gesindhede kan nie oornag gebeur nie. Dit verg ‘n lewenslange toewyding van
almal wat daaroor begaan is.

At de Lange, Pretoria.

•

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