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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Lowlands-L <lowlands-l@lowlands-l.net><BR>To: LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<BR>Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 12:45:38 AM<BR>Subject: LL-L 'Language politics' 2006.10.30 (05) [E]<BR><BR>
<DIV>======================================================================<BR>L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226<BR><A href="http://www.lowlands-l.net/" target=_blank>http://www.lowlands-l.net</A> * lowlands-l@lowlands-l.net<BR>Rules & Guidelines: <A href="http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules" target=_blank>http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules</A><BR>Posting: lowlands@listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l@lowlands-l.net<BR>Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv@listserv.net<BR>Server Manual: <A href="http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html" target=_blank>http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html</A><BR>Archives: <A href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html" target=_blank>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html</A><BR>Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]<BR>Administration: lowlands-l@lowlands-l.com or
sassisch@yahoo.com<BR>=======================================================================<BR>You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.<BR>To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message<BR>text from the same account to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or<BR>sign off at <A href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target=_blank>http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</A>.<BR>=======================================================================<BR>A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian<BR>L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian<BR>S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)<BR>=======================================================================<BR><BR>L O W L A N D S - L * 30 October 2006 * Volume 05<BR>======================================================================<BR><BR>From: John Duckworth
[johncduckworth@yahoo.co.uk]<BR>Subject: Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands.<BR><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hello John,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">You wrote:<BR>"Can anyone on the list give me some idea how much Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands<BR>(ABN) is promoted in the schools of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and Belgium?<BR><BR>Are pupils in Amsterdam for instance made to pronounce the ending of the<BR>infinitive as -en, or are they allowed to drop the ending n_ , as in their<BR>everyday Amsterdam speech? Are they urged to pronounce the _V-_ of _vier_ as a<BR>voiced consonant, or are they allowed to pronounce it devoiced, as is the local norm?<BR><BR>And what is the situation in the Vlaamstalige areas? Are Belgians expected to<BR>learn and use certain pronunciations at school that would normally be considered<BR>indiosyncratic of their northern neighbour?<BR><BR>It seems to be that there is a degree of confusion. "
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The use of ABN is actively promoted in </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Belgium</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">, and has been for many years. Certainly, that was a necessary policy, since Dutch, though acknowledged from the very start as one of the official languages in </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Belgium</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">, was thwarted. From the proclamation of independence
onwards, French was for all practical purposes used as the undisputed language in the administration. True, every bill of law was duly translated into Dutch, but the French version remained the official one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Yielding to the legitimate demands of the Flemish population, by the 1880’s it was accepted that the language used in the courts of law and in the administration should be the same as the one used in the region (either French or Dutch). However, it was only in 1932 that Dutch was finally recognized as the teaching-medium in secondary schools. (Before both languages were used for particular subjects: for instance French was used for geography and Dutch for history.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">From 1932 Dutch was regularly taught in school, though very often heavily influenced by French. “Gallicismen” were the bane of every teacher of Dutch. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Of course, things gradually improved. It must be noted, however, that </SPAN><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Flanders</SPAN></st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> developed its own variety of the Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands, which is readily recognizable. The Hollandish kind of ABN is never used in </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Belgium</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">, except in joke. Of course, everybody is expected to understand (not to use) the idiosyncratic terms and expressions most commonly used in
</SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Holland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">What are the differences between Flemish Dutch and the kind used in </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Holland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The initial v, z and g are still voiced in Flemish Dutch, although I pointed out in a previous posting that this voicing is not particularly strong. This becomes evident if you compare the Flemish pronunciation with the speech of many Walloons who acquired a good knowledge of Dutch. In their rendering the three fricatives sound much more voiced. It is a truly striking feature.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The long vowels ‘ee, oo’ do not tend to become diphthongs in </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Belgium</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Netherlands</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> have a wide range of r’s. In </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Belgium</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> there are only two: the one pronounced with the tip of the tongue (now appearing to be slightly losing ground) and the uvular r. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">The n in the ending –en is not pronounced in </SPAN><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Limburg</SPAN></st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> and </SPAN><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Brabant</SPAN></st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">. In the West the n is pronounced but the ‘e’ is sometimes omitted in the speech of those using ABN. By the way, the N in this term is nowadays usually left out, to indicate that dialect is not by principle less “beschaafd” (civilized) than General Dutch.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Personally, I do think that the differences – though phonetically standing out – hardly matter in practice. Both the Dutch and the Flemish have come to accept them, just as the British and the Americans do for their language. Differences should not be stressed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Roger Hondshoven<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><BR><BR><BR>==============================END===================================<BR>* Please submit postings to lowlands-l@listserv.linguistlist.org.<BR>* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.<BR>* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.<BR>* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are<BR> to be sent to listserv@listserv.linguistlist.org or at<BR> <A href="http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html" target=_blank>http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html</A>.<BR>======================================================================</DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></div><br></body></html>
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