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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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L O W L A N D S - L * 24 November 2006 * Volume 04 <BR>
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<BR>
From: list@marcusbuck.org <BR>
Subject: LL-L 'Language use' 2006.11.17 (01) [E/LS/German]<BR>
<BR>
<FONT face=Arial color=#ff0000>> From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' [</FONT><A href="javascript:top.opencompose('Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net','','','1')"><FONT face=Arial>Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#ff0000>]<BR>
> Hab ich da was falsch verstanden? Das steht doch oben: "Nedderlanners ... de</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> sik</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> dat för ehren Staat ünnern Nagel reten hebbt ..." (Niederländer ...</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> die sich</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> das für ihren Staat untern Nagel gerissen haben ...)</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT color=red>> From: R. F. Hahn [[log in to unmask]]</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> I'm not sure. I guess we need to ask Marcus, because I believe he's the one</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> that</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>> wrote it.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#06082c>Dor heff ik woll dat ";-)" vergeten. Nee, dor bün ik de Nedderlanners nich böös<BR>
um. Fröher heet doch de ganze Küst "de nedderen Lannen", meist vun Flandern bet<BR>
na Pommern. Un Nedderdüütsch as dat "Düütsch vun de nedderen Lannen", dat Woort<BR>
hebbt se för Nedderlandsch/Nedderfränksch jüstso nahmen as se dat ok för<BR>
Plattdüütsch nahmen hebbt. Denn sünd de Nedderlanners ut dat ole Düütsche Riek<BR>
rut un hebbt en egenen Staat opmaakt. Den Staat hebbt se "de Nedderlannen"<BR>
nöömt. Dor is nix leegs an. De Staat Düütschland is ja ok blots en Deel vun dat<BR>
düütsche Land. Dat dumme is blots: gegen 'nen Staat kunn de Utdruck "de nedderen<BR>
Lannen" nich gegen an. För "dat sied legene Land twischen Flandern un Pommern"<BR>
geev dat nu kenen egenen Utdruck mehr. Un hüüt, hüüt söökt wi wedder en ne'en<BR>
Utdruck för dit Rebeet. Un hebbt Möh, denn de ole Begreep, de würklich passen<BR>
dee, den köönt wi nich mehr bruken. Dor wull ik op dal. Ene "Schuld" oder "böse<BR>
Afsichten" wull ik dor nich mit utdrücken.<BR>
<BR>
Schöne Gröten<BR>
Marcus Buck</FONT><BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
From: Jan Strunk <jan.strunk@googlemail.com> <BR>
Subject: LL-L 'Language use' 2006.11.17 (01) [E/LS/German]<BR>
<BR>
<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#06082c>Leiwe Lüe,<BR>
<BR>
Ron wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT color=red>>Don't open that can of worms again! My spelling is not Dutch-based, though it is</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>definitely related to the spelling of the varieties in the west. The phoneme is</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>/aa/ (not /oo/), but the pronunciation varies from [a:] via [Q:] (as in "posh"</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>Southern English "party") to [o:], depending on the dialect. The [o:]</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>pronunciation dominates in the area of the Lower Elbe and _um rum_. However, the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>pronunciation is not the same as that of the real phoneme /oo/, which in those</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>dialect is always [o.U] or [e.U] (as in Southern English in "go"). The spelling</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>"o" or "oo" for the long "a" is thus plain wrong but is widely used. Why? </FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>Because people that deal with this usually don't know the first thing about</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>phonology and want to write "phonetically." The same goes for "å" (used in</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>Schleswig-Holstein) and "ao" (used in Westphalia). The spelling "ao" or "oa" is</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>used in the Eastern Netherlands as well (also for Flemish in Belgium), but at</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>least there you can say that some of the dialects do distinguish between [Q:] and</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>>[a:] ~ [æ:], thus have *two* phonemes there, which I would write /aa/ vs /ää/.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=red>></FONT><BR>
</FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#06082c>The reason why this phoneme is written as "ao" in Westphalia is that it <BR>
is a distinct phoneme from long a.<BR>
In this way, the Westphalian dialects in Germany are very close to the <BR>
nearest dialects in the Netherlands.<BR>
There are minimal pairs like these:<BR>
laat "late" vs. ek laot "I let"<BR>
<BR>
So, there is a need to distinguish these two phonemes in Westphalian, <BR>
too. Unlike, probably, in Schleswig-Holstein.<BR>
<BR>
And I am curious why you say that the underlying phoneme for [o.U] or <BR>
[e.U] in Elbe dialects is /oo/?<BR>
Would you argue diachronically? Or maybe because there is a general rule <BR>
of diphthongization in these dialects also<BR>
applying to other long vowels?<BR>
<BR>
Kumpelmente!<BR>
<BR>
Jan Strunk<BR>
</FONT><A href="mailto:strunk@linguistics.rub.de"><FONT face=Arial>strunk@linguistics.rub.de</FONT></A><BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
<BR>
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch@yahoo.com]<BR>
Subject: Language use<BR>
<BR>
Hi, Jan!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I believe I said that there are two such phonemes in the farwestern dialects, though I didn't specify them. There is no such distinction elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
As for Lower Elbe dialects, /oo/ and /ou/ have become one phoneme, which is pronounced as a diphthong. It doesn't really matter what you posit as the exact phoneme. Nevertheless, I would be more than hesitant to accept [o:] as the phoneme /oo/. It is /aa/, which is seen when speakers adapt German loans: [a:] > [o:].<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Reinhard/Ron
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