L O W L A N D S - L - 05 January 2007 - Volume 01<br>======================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_jonny.meibohm@arcor.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">jonny <<a href="mailto:jonny.meibohm@arcor.de">
jonny.meibohm@arcor.de</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2007.01.04 (03) [E<br><p><font color="black" face="Courier" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Courier; color: black;">Hi, Ron,</span>
</font></p>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Courier; color: black;">in your answer to J.
Rodenburg you used Arial Unicode 10:</span></font></p><span class="q">
<p><font color="black" face="Courier" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Courier; color: black;">> </span></font><font face="Arial Unicode MS" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I
know Americans that pronounce the name Schroeder as "SHROE-dr" and
others that pronounce it as "SHREY-dr" -- and I include in this their
own names. In German and Low Saxon names, <i><span style="font-style: italic;">ö</span></i> is sometimes rendered as "ey" in American
English.</span></font></p>
</span>
<p><font color="black" face="Courier" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Courier; color: black;">On my screen it's so
small that I've difficulties to read it in normal speed- in special all special
characters. I think grade 12 would be better.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font color="black" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Greutens/Regards<br>
<br>
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm</span></font></p>
</div>----------<br><br>From: <span class="ppt" id="_user_bryans@lodging1.com">"Bryan E. Schulz" <span class="lg"><<a href="mailto:bryans@lodging1.com">bryans@lodging1.com</a>></span></span><br>Subject: LL-L 'Names'
2007.01.05 (01) [E]<br><br><span class="q">
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">>
Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)<br><span> </span>['rø<span lang="ZH-CN">ːɝ</span>da<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑ</span>n(t)s]?
(RU(R)-dun(t)s)<br><span> </span>perhaps derived from a Slavonic
Pomeranian name</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span> </div></span>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Also, could
someone explain the pronunciation(American) of the name SCHULZ which is
pronounced as if there is a T before the Z i.e
SCHOLTZ. Is there a reason for the 'tz'
sound? I find this also in other German words, spoken in American English,
where the ending letter is Z. Is this a Polish
influence?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span> </div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Thanx,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"></span> </div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Bryan E.
Schulz</span></div><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Names<br><br>Jonny, the font thing may have been <span style="font-style: italic;">
my</span> fault, not Bryan's. When people use various types of fonts their styles tend to carry over to the next posting and I must try and reset it (which isn't always easy). In this particular case it must have defaulted to the correct font style but to the incorrect size. Obviously, 12 points is best. I'll attach my original response to Bryan below and add my response to the question he asks above.
<br><br>For the sake of those of us whose eyesight isn't all that great I suggest that all of us take as our posting standard Arial 12 point, or Arial Unicode 12 point if "exotic" characters are used. This is merely a polite request to everyone. I won't send the font
<span style="font-style: italic;">polizei</span> after you if you use other types of fonts. Also, if you have trouble reading stuff, please either set your web or e-mail encoding mode to UTF-8 (Unicode), or highlight, copy and paste into your word-processing program the text portion you wish to read, and then highlight it and choose the font Arial Unicode. Everyone should have this font these days. (If you do not, please arrange something ...)
<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br>***<br>
<p><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">From:<span style=""> </span>R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Names<br>
<br>
Hi, John! Good to hear from you.<br>
<br>
> My own name Rodenburg for instance is pronounced differently in high<br>
> German. I don't know what the low German pronunciation is.<br>
<br>
It depends on the dialect. It would be written either as <i>Rodenborg</i> or as
<i>Raudenborg</i> and pronounced ['ro<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑʊ</span>dn̩b<span lang="ZH-CN">ɔː</span>x] or ['ra<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑʊ</span>dn̩b<span lang="ZH-CN">ɔː
</span>x], using English-type spelling for non-linguists something like
"ROE-dn-bawkh" and "ROW-dn-bawkh" respectively
("oe" as in "d<u>oe</u>", "ow" as in "c<u>ow</u>",
<i>kh</i> as in "lo<u>ch</u>"). Considering the predominance of the
areas of Hanover and Mecklenburg
in your family's origin, I'd put my money on the second pronunciation.<br>
<br>
Mind you, "Rodenburg" seems to be a semi-germanized form,
"Rotenburg" being "proper" German.<br>
<br>
Many people with this name in Poland
had their surname Raudenburg ~ Rautenburg polonized, typically to Garczynski or
Klinski. I don't know what the Kashubian equivalents are. <br>
<br>
> When my grandfather and his brother came to America, one kept the spelling of<br>
> his last name Schröder (now Schroder) and other changed it to Schroeder in
an<br>
> effort to keep the pronunciation correct. It didn't work. Both names are<br>
> commonly pronounced as you would say them in English.<br>
<br>
I know Americans that pronounce the name Schroeder as "SHROE-dr" and
others that pronounce it as "SHREY-dr" -- and I include in this their
own names. In German and Low Saxon names, <i>ö</i> is sometimes rendered
as "ey" in American English.<br>
<br>
The name comes from Low Saxon and Middle German Schrader ~ Schrœder ( the
latter originally with an open, lax "œ" as in French <i>cœur</i>)
'tailor'. Ultimately it goes back to an old verb <i>schraden</i> 'to cut', and
this is related to English "shred." The equivalent German name
is Schneider (from <i>schneiden</i> 'to cut').<br>
<br>
> Can any guide by given to low German family name pronunciation?<br>
<br>
> Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg, Hannover)<br>
['br<span lang="ZH-CN">ʊŋ</span>kh<span lang="ZH-CN">ɔˑ</span>st]
(BROONK-hawst)<br>
<br>
> Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),<br>
['v<span lang="ZH-CN">ɛː</span>n<span lang="ZH-CN">ɝ</span>]
(VAI(R)-nuh) probably German<br>
<br>
> Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)<br>
[sta<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑɪ</span>nke] (STINE-key)<br>
Diminutive of "stone"?<br>
Germanicizations of Slavonic Pomeranian (Kashubian) <i><br>
kamiónka</i> "little stone"?<br>
<br>
> Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)<br>
German/Germanized: ['kra<span lang="ZH-CN">ʊ</span>zə] (KROW-zuh)<br>
Low Saxon <i>Kruuse</i> ~ <i>Kruus'</i> ['kru<span lang="ZH-CN">ː</span>ze]
~ [kru<span lang="ZH-CN">ːˑ</span>z] (KREW-z(ey))<br>
(I suspect the actor Tom Cruise to have this one, or Spanish <i>Cruz</i>.)<br>
Originally "the frizzy-haired one"?<br>
<br>
> Schröder (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin)<br>
German ['<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃ</span>rø<span lang="ZH-CN">ː</span>d<span lang="ZH-CN">ɚ</span>]<br>
Low Saxon ['<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃ</span>rœ<span lang="ZH-CN">ː</span>d<span lang="ZH-CN">ɝ</span>] (SHRU(R)-duh)<br>
<br>
> Meyer (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)<br>
German ['ma<span lang="ZH-CN">ɪɚ</span>] (MIE-uh)<br>
Low Saxon ['ma<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑɪɝ</span>] (MIE-ah)<br>
<br>
> Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)<br>
It's German -- [<span lang="ZH-CN">ʦʊ</span>m'malən] (tsoom MAH-lun)<br>
If it came from Low Saxon, I'd guess it was:<br>
Ton'n Mallen [to<span lang="ZH-CN">ʊ</span>n'ma<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑ</span>ln̩]
(tone MAHLN)<br>
and this seems to mean "by the crazy one,"<br>
"at the crazy one's," "where the crazy one
lives"<br>
<br>
> Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)<br>
['rø<span lang="ZH-CN">ːɝ</span>da<span lang="ZH-CN">ˑ</span>n(t)s]?
(RU(R)-dun(t)s)<br>
perhaps derived from a Slavonic Pomeranian name</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">I hope this
helped.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron<br>
<br>
***</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">Addendum:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">Bryan, Schulz, Schultz, Scholz,
Scholtz, Schulze and Schultze are variants of a German name, Scholz and Schotz
apparently Central German ones (those that border on Low Saxon/Low German).<br>
<br>
Their pronunciation: [<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃʊ</span>l<span lang="ZH-CN">ʦ</span>],
['<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃʊ</span>l<span lang="ZH-CN">ʦə</span>], [<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃɔ</span>l<span lang="ZH-CN">ʦ</span>], thus "SHULLTS",
"SHULL-tsuh" ("u" as in "pull"), "SHOLLTS".<br>
<br>
The Low Saxon equivalents are Scholt ~ Scholte ([<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃɔˑ</span>lt]
"SHOLLT", ['<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃɔˑ</span>lte] "SHOLL-tey")
and Scholt ~ Scholte ([<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃʊˑ</span>lt] "SHULLT",
['<span lang="ZH-CN">ʃʊˑ</span>lte] "SHULLT-tey").<br>
<br>
What you are dealing with in the German versions is the famous High German
"affricativation" from /t/ to /ts/, as you can tell when you compare
them with the Low Saxon equivalents.<br>
<br>
This name (also known as Schultheiß in German) originated in the title of a
village chief, the one responsible, the one that bore the blame and
repercussions should the village misbehave.<span style="">
</span>It was he (and usually not a she) that was responsible for collecting
fees and taxes from the community and take them to the squire or occupying
commander.<br>
<br>
Etymology:<br>
<br>
Old Saxon: <i>skuldhêtio</i><br></span><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">
Old English: <i>sculdh<span lang="ZH-CN">ǣ</span>ta</i></span><span style="font-family: "Arial Unicode MS";">
<br>Old German: <i>skuldheizo</i><i></i><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Reinhard/Ron</span></p>