<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2007 - Volume 01</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_globalmoose@t-online.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Global Moose Translations <<a href="mailto:globalmoose@t-online.de">
globalmoose@t-online.de</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties'
2007.02.03 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Ron wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
>A Hessian textbook? I'd be very surprised to come
acro ss one. Hessian is not and is not perceived as a separate
language but is a group of >German dialects, and most German
speakers find it easy to understand them.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">So, obviously, you've
never been to rural Hesse... there are dialects there that could well
qualify as separate languages if one were so minded. What you described
is pretty much a city accent, as you would find in Frankfurt, Marburg,
or Wiesbaden. Try listening to natives from the villages around
Tann/Rhön, or the deepest Odenwald! Then you'll find that what you
think you know now is not their actual dialect. Most Germans from other
areas wouldn't understand a single word that is spoken.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">You
emphasized several times "how this is relevant to the Lowlands". May I
remind you that your exclusion of German and German dialects other than
Lower Saxon (which you claim is a separate language while everything
else isn't) is by your own, subjective definition, which springs from
an effort to keep LS as separate from German as possible? Hessian, for
example, is not all that different from LS in many respects (not to
mention High German!). They don't live in the lowlands, of course, but
neither do we in Southern Lower Saxony!</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Gabriele Kahn</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_globalmoose@t-online.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">R. F. Hahn <yahoo@com></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: Language varieties</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Gabriele:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">> May I
remind you that your exclusion of German and German dialects other than
Lower Saxon (which you claim is a separate language while everything
else isn't) is by your own, subjective definition, which springs from
an effort to keep LS as separate from German as possible? </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Even if all of this were true (and I realize that it or its appearance are likely to rub some Germans the wrong way), it wouldn't change the fact that our focus is what it is. And I mention yet again two things:
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><ol style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><li>There are several listservs that deal with German specifically and others that deal with Germanic generally, both types usually including Low Saxon (if it's ever mentioned). My assumption is that there's room for different approaches, views and emphases, including alternative ones, even if they fly in the face of some people's realities or wishes. Our name is "Lowlands-L," not "Germanic-L".
<br></li><li>Like any other language, German may be discussed on LL-L if the discussion is relevant to the focus, especially if the varieties discussed are Lowlands-specific.</li></ol><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Many ways lead to Rome, and there's always freedom of choice as to which one to take.</span><span style="font-style: italic; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Regards,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Reinhard/Ron</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">---------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net">karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span>
<span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.03 (02) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
<div><font size="2"><span><font color="#0000ff">Paul, you wrote:</font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span> </span></font></div>
<div><font size="2">What sort of status as a language does Hessian have? Could I
buy a "Teach Yourself Hessian" for example? I mean as a serious language book;
many English dialects will have books supposedly teaching local dialect ("Learn
thisen Yarkshir", and for my local East Midlands dialect "Eyup Miduck") but
these are largely tongue-in-cheek spoofs.<span><font color="#0000ff"> </font></span></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><span></span></font> </div></span>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">There
are these Kauderwelsch Books combined with CDs, some of them are about
German dialects. At the moment they have: Bairisch, Berlinerisch, Elsässisch,
Fränkisch, German Slang, Jiddisch, Kölsch, Letzebuergesch, Platt, Sächsisch,
Schwäbisch, Schwitzerdüütsch and Wienerisch.</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Look
at:</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span><font color="#0000ff"> </font></span></font></font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="#0000ff" size="2"><a href="http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.reise-know-how.de/buecher/sprachindex.html
</a></font><span></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">This
series of small books claims to give you a basic knowledge of the
particular language or dialect. At least you get an idea of how the dialect
looks an sounds like and how it differs from standard German. The one of
them who comes closest to Hessian is "Fränkisch". It could even
be that this "Büchlein" defines "Frankisch" in a sense that comprises
Hessian. Unless it's only a matter of time till a Hessian
Kaderwelschsprachführer will be on the market.</font></span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Karl-Heinz</font> <br><br>----------<br><br></span>
From: <span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg">
</span><br>
Subject: LL-L 'Language varieties' 2007.02.03 (02) [E]<br>
<br><div style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><font size="2">From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com
</a> ><br>Subject: Language varieties<br><br>Paul,<br><br>My first name ain't Gabriele, but my last name is almost Kahn. So I'll throw a couple of old-currency <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
Pfennigs</span></span> worth of comments into the ring.<br><br>There's
a fair bit of variety in Hessian German. Much depends on if you are
referring to "Hessian" as a type of dialect or as all language
varieties that happen to be used in the German state of Hesse ( <span style="font-style: italic;">Hessen</span>). <br><br>In
the very north of the state there are a few communities that speak Low
Saxon (Low German), and this is where we find some relevance to this
list. Just south of that area there's a narrow band of dialects that
qualify as "Central German" ( i.e., transitional varieties" or "contact
varieties," depending on your personal bias). South of that is where
you find the "actual" Hessian German dialects, and this includes the
traditional dialect of Frankfurt on Main. <br><br>Gabriele
already mentioned a couple of phonological characteristics of Hessian,
and I'll generalize that and add a couple of items.<br></font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<ol><li><font size="2">What in Standard German is [ç] (/x/ <span style="font-style: italic;">ch</span> after front vowels) is pronounced like German <span style="font-style: italic;">sch</span> and English "sh";
e.g., Standard <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">I</span>ch fürchte mich </span>= Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">Isch fihscht misch</span> 'I'm afraid'.<br><br></font>
</li><li><font size="2">Voiceless consonants are voiced between vowels and/or voiced consonants; e.g., Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">Hessen</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">Hesse</span> ['hEze] 'Hesse', Standard
<span style="font-style: italic;">Betten</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">Bedde</span> 'beds', Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">Hexe</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">Hegze
</span> 'witch'.<br><br></font></li><li><font size="2">Front rounded vowels are unrounded in most dialects; Standard <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Möchtest du d</span></span></font>
<font size="2"><span style="font-style: italic;">ünner werden?</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">Mescht du dinneh wehde? </span>'Do you want to get thinner (slimmer)?'<br><br></font></li><li><font size="2">
<span style="font-style: italic;">-r </span>is "dropped," actually assimilated to the preceding vowel, resulting in a lengthened vowel; e.g., Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">werden</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">
wehde</span> 'to become', Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">besser</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">besseh</span> ['bEze:] 'better'.<br><br></font></li><li><font size="2"><span style="font-style: italic;">
-en</span> is pronounced as [e]; e.g., Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">essen</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">esse</span> ['?Eze:] 'to eat', Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">
wetten</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">wedde</span> 'to bet', Standard <span style="font-style: italic;">h</span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-style: italic;">üpfen</span> = Hessian <span style="font-style: italic;">
hibwe</span> 'to hop'.</font><font size="2"><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><br></font></li></ol></div><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2">Quite
a few of these characteristics are found in "typical" Central German
dialects, which leads me to favor allocating most, if not all, Hessian
dialects to that category.<br><br>A Hessian textbook? I'd be very
surprised to come across one. Hessian is not and is not perceived as a
separate language but is a group of German dialects, and most German
speakers find it easy to understand them. If in cases like these there
are textbooks and the like, I would expect them to be tongue in cheek,
if not outrightly poking fun. <br><br>And another point of relevance to the Lowlands:<br><br>Hessian
dialects used to be spoken in 18th-century Northeastern America, namely
by mercenaries hired by Britain to help supress anti-colonialist
American endeavors. Some of them stayed after the war and came to be
absorbed into various communities. Others came to be transferred to
Ireland to help the British forces fight the rebellion there. <br><br>As
most of you probably know, there are some legends and spooky stories
about Hessians in New York State and thereabouts, such as the horrible
headless Hessian haunting Sleepy Hollow, a community founded by
settlers from the Netherlands ... <span style="font-style: italic;">Huuuu ... </span></font><font style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" size="2"><span style="font-style: italic;">Isch fihscht misch!</span></font><font size="2">
<span style="font-style: italic; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Regards,</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Reinhard/Ron </span><br></font>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2"><br><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size="2">Thanks
Ron, that clarifies a lot, geographically and linguistically.
Frankfurt am Main is much further south than I had envisaged the area
to be.</font></font></div>
<p><font size="2">As to Sleepy Hollow, the movie with Johnny Depp a few
years back was actually the first time I'd ever heard of "Hessians".
Would the late and not-very-lamented Rudolf have had ancestry in that
area? (Hessen, not NE America!)</font></p><font style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size="2"><span class="sg">
<p>Paul<br></p></span></font></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">