<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 04 February 2007 - Volume 02</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk
</a>"</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"> <<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
What about "Des Meeres und der Liebe Wellen"?</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">How succinct and muscical can you get simultaneously!
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Heather</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net">karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.02 (01) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">From:
<span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Global
Moose Translations <<a href="mailto:globalmoose@t-online.de" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">globalmoose@t-online.de</a>></span><br>Subject:
LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]<br><br>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> > </font></span>Karl-Heinz
wrote:<br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>For those who are learning
Standard-German: You have the choice between<br></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> > </font></span>>...<br></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> > </font></span>>2. a dative
construction: „dem Vogel seine Hochzeit" <br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>(Pretty often used in all German
varieties, I think also in Lowlands languages, do you say: "den Vogel sien(e)
Hochtied" in LS >and "de[n] vogel zijn bruiloft" in
D?)<br><br></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> > </font></span>But no! This is not a
correct, "standard" German form at all - it is a wrong construction that some
people use, and considered quite "inferior".<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span></span> </div></span>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">I know, it's "verpönt" at least in written
German, no doubt about that, I forgot to add this. But it's a fact
that for example a student of German who comes to Germany to practice
will hardly hear genitives as well as in Standard German and
dialect neither in Germany (at least in the South) nor in Switzerland and
Austria. So I think it is advisible for every student of German to get used to
this "inferior" colloquial speech.</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">(But you probably don't need it in
Hannover:</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">"Geht hin nach Hannover, in die Hauptstadt der
angeblichen Niedersachsen. Ihr werdet dort blühende Landschaften erleben,
in der nicht Plattdeutsch oder ein schlechtes Missingsch gesprochen wird,
sondern ein perfektes </font></span><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Hochdeutsch aus der
Konserve."</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">End of promoting a "Sprachurlaub" in Hannover, the
capital of "Low Saxony".)</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">And so I wonder if the jugdement of this
dative formula as "incorrect" and "inferior" has it's root in the
oppression of Low German in the North. I assume that High-German
enthousiasts estimated / estimate the use of dative as
an "inferior" Missingsch thing from Low German and Dutch,
whereas they didn't / don't really recognice that this is also
nearly exclusively used in most (High-) German dialects, I think in all
"real" dialects, because this "accent-" dialects are no dialects at
all.</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">(About "accent"- dialects: Es amüsiert mich
immer wieder, wenn Leute in den deutschsprachigen
Unterhaltungsmedien glauben, sie könnten Dialekte nachmachen, indem
sie sich mehr schlecht als recht einen Akzent
aufsetzen.)</font></span></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><span></span><br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>For me a word order with the
genetive in front looks best. Genitive is hardly used in colloquial
German<br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>(I don't know any (real)
German dialect which uses the genitive), and this is probably why in
written <br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>German the genitive is dying, hence
we say "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod". And so do the<br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">></font> </font></span>>compound words: they replace
genitives.<br><br></span><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"><font color="#000000" size="3">>
</font> </font></span>But "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod" is a
sarcastic book title, designed to make you wince, and the book itself explains
why this construction is completely wrong in standard German!<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span>> </span>
It <span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span>is correct in LS ("Herrn Pastorn sin Kauh"), but
never in German.<font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span> </span></font></font></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span></span></font></font> </div></span>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><span>I'm now likely to write a book
called: "Der Genitiv ist des Dativs Tod!" Jedenfalls quält der Genetiv
den Dativ offensichtlich schon eine ganze Weile in der deutschen
Sprachgeschichte. Mir persönlich gefällt der Genetiv praktisch nur in der
geschriebenen Sprache (er sieht gut aus), in der gesprochenen Sprache
vielleicht in bedeutungsvollen Reden, ansonsten kann ich jedenfalls auf ihn
verzichten. Übrigens auch auf den Konjunktiv I. Auch das ist eine
"hannoverdeutsche" Diktatur. In der gesprochenen Sprache kommt das alles so
aufgesetzt und gezwungen rüber.</span></font></font></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Why can't we decide by ourselves what is wrong or right?
Warum gehorchen die Deutschsprachigen so untertänig den
Sprachdesignern seit Luther? (Der hat den Leuten ja angeblich auf's Maul
geschaut. Alle Sprach"veredler" danach haben das sicher nicht gemacht. Und
deshalb ist die Hochdeutsche Sprache u.a. so pseudo-logisch und eindeutig,
sodass Wortspiele nur eingeschränkt möglich sind. Ich glaube Gabriele,
du hast ja auch einmal sinngemäß geschrieben: puns work better in English
than in Dutch, but in German they don't work at
all.)</font></span><span class="q"><br><br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">> </font> </font></span>Is Hessian not a "real dialect", then?
They use the genitive even for proper names! For example, somebody named
Alfons Heppe would be "Heppes Alf" in Hessian.<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></span></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="q">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">> </font> </span> Reinhard <span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span>Hahn <span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span>would <span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">
</font></span>be "Hahns Reinhard". And so on, you get the
picture.<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><span></span> </div></span>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Even for proper names? I suppose they only use it for
names, this is generally done in High-German dialects (I forgot that, I
never claim to be complete), for exampel quite often in
Tyrolean. But the Hessians wouldn't say "Der Bembel des Heppes Alf"
but "(Dem) Heppes Alf sein Bembel". <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bembel" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bembel</a></font></span><span class="q">
<br><br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> <font color="#000000" size="3">> </font></font></span>It's
"Die Vogelhochzeit" and not "Des Vogels Hochzeit" because it doesn't mean "The
bird's wedding" at all, but "A wedding among birds".<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Also doch eine "Vögelhochzeit" (oder "Der Vögel
Hochzeit[en]?)".</font> </span><br><br><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Liebe
Grüße</font></span></div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Karl-Heinz <br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">----------</span><br><br></font></span>From: <span id="_user_karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net">karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.02 (02) [E]<br><br>From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>Subject:
LL-L 'Orthography' 2007.02.01 (03) [E]<br><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Karl-Heinz.Lorenz@gmx.net</a> ></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: LL-L
'Orthography' 2007.01.30 (04) [E]</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">For me a word
order with the genetive in front looks best. Genitive is hardly used in
colloquial German (I don't know any (real) German dialect which uses the
genitive), and this is probably why in written German the genitive is dying,
hence we say "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod". And so do the compound
words: they replace genitives.</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Regards</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
Karl-Heinz</span>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">What??!!!??</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">A
quarter of my old declension tables are becoming obsolete????</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;">Paul
Finlow-Bates<span><font color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">No Paul, not at
all. You need them at least for written German. Additionally for colloquial
German you also have to get used to these so called "inferior</font><font color="#0000ff" size="2">" German dative constructions (often combined
with prepositions, just as in LS and Dutch). You can hear them quite
often, but I'm afraid you won't find lessons about them in your
books.</font></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Liebe
Grüße</font></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;"><span><font color="#0000ff" size="2">Karl-Heinz</font></span></div><br>
----------<br><br>From: <span id="_user_karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net">karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg">
</span><br>
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.01 (04) [E]<br>
<br>
<font size="2"><b>Von:</b> Lowlands Languages
& Cultures [mailto:<a href="mailto:LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>]<b><br>Im Auftrag von
</b>Lowlands-L List<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 01. Februar 2007
22:59<br><b>An:</b> <a href="mailto:LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">LOWLANDS-L@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br><b>Betreff:</b>
LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.01 (04) [E]<br><span><font color="#0000ff"> </font></span></font>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><span><font color="#0000ff">This is
now my 4th lowlands mail today, you know: lazy Sunday afternoon. I
found a funny thing about this German dative thing in Hessian: "dem
Babba sein Bembel" in <a href="http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinesisch:_Lektion_3" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinesisch:_Lektion_3</a></font>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2"><span><font color="#0000ff">Karl-Heinz</font> <br></span></font></div><br></div>