<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 07 February 2007 - Volume 11</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">
wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.06 (03) [D/E/V]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">"Mathias Rösel" <<a href="mailto:Mathias.Roesel@t-online.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Mathias.Roesel@t-online.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2007.02.05 (01) [A/E] </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="3"> </font> "Lowlands-L List" <<a href="mailto:lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">lowlands.list@GMAIL.COM
</a>> schrieb:
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><span><font size="2">
<p>From: <span style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">"<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk </a>"
</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> <<a href="mailto:heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">heatherrendall@tiscali.co.uk </a>></span>
<br>Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2007.02.04 (08) [E] </p></font></span></blockquote>
<p><font color="#0000ff" size="3">German past tense is like in English built with ablaut. Take, took, taken : Nehme, nahm, genommen.</font></p>
<p><font color="#0000ff" size="3">Tun (to do) is added in
German so as to build progressive forms. Ich tue arbeiten : I am
working. In some German dialects, there is no difference between simple
and progressive present tense in terms if meaning.</font></p>
<p><font color="#0000ff" size="3">Mathias</font></p></div></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Roland Desnerck</span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> <<a href="mailto:desnerck.roland@skynet.be" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
desnerck.roland@skynet.be</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2007.02.05 (01) [A/E] </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Beste Lowlanders, Ron, Roger en alle anderen,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">In West-Vlaanderen gebruiken we
inderdaad, net als in het Engels, het hulpwerkwoord "doen". Ik geef
jullie de vervoeging van zowel bevestigend als ontkennend:</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">J'en go gie nie komm! 'k Doen of Bakdoe of Tdoet!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">'k En gon nie komm! Jedoet of Bajedoet! of Tdoet</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Hj' en god hie nie komm! Hjedoet of Bahjedoet of Tdoet! </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Z' en go zie nie komm! Zedoet of Bazedoet of Tdoet!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">'t En god ie nie komm! Tedoet of Batdoet, Tdoet of Tdoetdoet (klinken als toet, toetoet = et doet, it does)</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">J' en go giender nie komm! Medoen of Bamedoen of Toet!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">M' en gon wiender nie komm! Jedoet, Bajedoet, Tdoet, Tdoetdoet</font> <font size="2">!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Z' en gon ziender nie komm! Zedoen of Bazedoen of Tdoet of Tdoetdoet!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Je go gie komm! 'k En doen doen nie of Bakendoenie! </font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">'k Gon komm! </font> <font size="2">J' en doen nie, Bajendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Hje god hie komm! Hje 'en doen nie of Bahjendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ze go zie komm! Z' endoenie of Bazendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">'t Go reegn! 't Endoenie of Batendoenie of Tendoet of Tendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Je go giender komm! M' endoenie of Bamendoenie of Tendoet of Tendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Me gon wiender komm! J' endoenie, Bajendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ze gon ziender komm! Z' endoenie, Bazendoenie, Tendoenie!</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tdoet (toet) betekent zoveel als "toch wel"</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tendoenie betekent zoveel als "toch niet"</font></div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Ik hoop dat de verbazing bij Heather nu wegebt!</font></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div><font size="2">Roland Desnerck uut Ostende, Stad an Zai!</font> <br></div></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">This
is very interesting. In the area of Anglo-Saxon discussion there is a
trend (I consider it a political one) to diminish Germanic imput into
England and English. A stumbling block to this argument is the
overwhelming Germanic nature of English (before the relatively recent
French and Latin elements came in). An argument doing the rounds is
that the English construction using "do" with a verb is not typical of
Germanic languages, and thus the early English got it from the
"natives", thus proving a basic Celtic nature of English despite it
being almost devoid of Celtic words.</span>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Whether
the underlying population of England is "Celtic" is not relevant ot
this group, and may or may not be true. But the "do" argument would not
seem to be a strong piece of evidence.</font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2"> </font></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font size="2">Paul <br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Grammar<br><br>Paul,
<br><br>"Do" as an auxiliary is definitely very strong and widespread in West Germanic and apparently has been for a long time. It isn't that obvious because it is avoided and usually totally absent in standard languages. It is used a lot in Low Saxon. It is not confined to the Lowlands in that it is also quite common to many non-standard German varieties, though I suspect it's stronger in the northern ones, may thus be due to Saxon influence. (Yiddish doesn't have it, or at least doesn't use it to that extent, which may indicate that it spread in German fairly late.)
<br><br>And the Low Saxon area was never inhabited by Celts and never colonized by Romans, as far as we know.<br><br></font></div>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br>----------<br><br><font size="2">From: </font><span id="_user_sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Sandy Fleming <<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br><font size="2">
Subject: </font>LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.07 (04) [E]<br><font size="2"><br></font><span class="q">> From: "Mathias Rösel" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Mathias.Roesel@t-online.de">
Mathias.Roesel@t-online.de</a>><br>> Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.06 (13) [E]<br>> Sandy Fleming <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">
http://scotstext.org/</a> wrote:<br>><br>> Surely there's no such language as standard German, and surely<br>> if there<br>> is, it'll soon be obsolete!<br>> I do think there is such a thing. You can find it in the better of
<br>> German newsapers. It is being taught in Goethe institues abroad and in<br>> any Deutsch als Fremdsprache courses. On the other hand, I doubt you<br>> will find it in Duden dictionaries, because Duden is merely
<br>> descriptive and encompasses anything that is around, including wrong<br>> grammar such as wegen + dative case.<br><br></span><div style="direction: ltr;">But this would be dismissing a dictionary because it records language as
<br>it's found in the wild, in favour of those that give a more artificial<br>form of the language. Why is the language as it's spoken, wrong? Why is<br>the language as developed for writing, right? And do all the newspapers
<br>write it the same?<br><br>----------<br><br><font size="2">From: </font><span id="_user_sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Sandy Fleming <<a href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk
</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="lg"></span><br>
<font size="2">
Subject: </font>LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.07 (08) [E]<br>
<font size="2"><br>
</font><div style="direction: ltr;"><span class="q">> From: Jonny Meibohm <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>><br>> Subject: LL-L 'Grammar'
2007.02.06 (13) [E]<br>><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><span class="q">> But- if there isn't any standard- what shall I hand down for example<br>> to my<br>> children? What about schools which examine their pupils in grammar,
<br>> spelling, pronunciation? Should they perhaps stop it?<br>> A language isn't a language whithout rules.<br><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;">Surely you're using a very circumscribed definition of "language" here?
<br>Languages as used are pretty wild. Children learn a language without<br>knowing any rules, teenagers put it through a mincer, adults continually<br>make what academics would call language errors, and grammars and<br>dictionaries represent only a relatively easy-to-understand slice of the
<br>real complexities of language study (semantics, phonetics, syntax,<br>discourse, pragmatics, idiom, dialect, creolisation and so on, and of<br>course the processes by which all of these change over time).<br><br>I don't think someone who's reading, writing, speaking and listening in
<br>a language every day needs rules or a standard. Rather, such people<br>have plenty of different language samples from different books,<br>newspapers and speakers and make their own decisions from that<br>about how they want to speak and write. This is important because it's
<br>not enough to have one single form of a language: a person needs many<br>different registers for many different real life situations and writing<br>styles, so what do people mean when they say a standard? They always<br>
seem to imagine you can take a snapshot of the language. But at what<br>point in time? And where? Which publication and which speech register?<br>There's no such thing as a standard form of a language.<br></div><div style="direction: ltr;">
<span class="q"><br>> I'm born exactly 200 years later than Goethe, but I dare to guess that<br>> 98%<br>> of his grammar still is used in Standard German.<br>> That means: 2% have been changed within ~250 years, that is 0,008% a
<br>> year-<br>> just as grammar is concerned.<br><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;">You realised that 2% is actually quite a lot didn't you? That's why you<br>had to divide it into tiny units of time (a year doesn't hold much
<br>significance for language change) to make the percentage look much<br>smaller :)<br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><span class="q"><br>> All of Goethes writing still can be understood (only as far as his<br>> language
<br>> is concerned, not the intellectual contents) by a person of average<br>> education.<br><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;">I imagine most Germans have had Goethe at school and they'll be<br>acclimatised to it. I'm not sure how important that is, but whatever, as
<br>you said, the language has changed. Either Goethe didn't write in<br>standard German, or you don't. Which is it?<br></div><div style="direction: ltr;"><span class="q"><br>> The famous German physician, writer and philosopher G. A. Lichtenberg,
<br>> a<br>> contemporary of Goethe, even made a disposal that his words never<br>> should be<br>> changed by later generations of people, otherwise they would be<br>> comdemned<br>> ... ;-) As far as I could watch today's writers (in magazines, books
<br>> etc.<br>> about his person or works) still don't.<br><br></span></div><div style="direction: ltr;">Of course they do. They truncate his last words to make them seem more<br>profound than they really were :)
<br></div><span class="sg"><br>Sandy Fleming<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://scotstext.org/" target="_blank">http://scotstext.org/</a><br></span><br></div><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">