<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 09 February 2007 - Volume 08<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">
Lee Goldberg <<a href="mailto:leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com">leybl_goldberg@yahoo.com</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L 'Grammar'<br><br>Yiddish actually does have a structure with "do", but its use is
stylistically marked as typical of old books of prayers and meditations
for women (known as "tkhines"): "ikh tu got betn", etc.<br> <font size="2"><br><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">From: R. F. Hahn <</span><a style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);" href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
sassisch@yahoo.com</a><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Subject: Grammar</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">Paul, </span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">"Do"
as an auxiliary is definitely very strong and widespread in West
Germanic and apparently has been for a long time. It isn't that
obvious because it is avoided and usually totally absent in standard
languages. It is used a lot in Low Saxon. It is not confined to the
Lowlands in that it is also quite common to many non-standard German
varieties, though I suspect it's stronger in the northern ones, may
thus be due to Saxon influence. (Yiddish doesn't have it, or at least
doesn't use it to that extent, which may indicate that it spread in
German fairly late.) </span></font><br><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Grammar<br><br>Thanks a lot, Lee.<br><br>I'm familiar with that construction. Admittedly, though, I've always thought of it as טאָן <span style="font-style: italic;">ton</span> 'to do' being the main verb and גאָט בעטן
<span style="font-style: italic;">got betn</span> ("implore/pray (to) God") as a sort of noun meaning "(act of) praying" or "prayer" ("God-imploring"), thus something like 'to do/perform (a) prayer(s)," more specifically 'to do תּחינות
<span style="font-style: italic;">tkhines </span>(< <span style="font-style: italic;">tħinoth</span>)", "I do the Yiddish prayers" -- as opposed to בעטן גאָט <span style="font-style: italic;">betn got</span>
'to pray'. To me it "feels" similar to the difference between תּפֿילה טאָן <span style="font-style: italic;">tfile ton</span> ("to do/perform prayers") and דאַוונען <span style="font-style: italic;">
davnen</span> 'to pray'. But then again I may be wrong.<br><br>And then there are perhaps related constructions such as איך טו אַ שרײַב <span style="font-style: italic;">ikh tu a shrayb</span> ("I do a write") 'I('ll) write it down', 'I'm making a note of it',* as opposed to plain איך שרײַב
<span style="font-style: italic;">ikh shrayb</span> 'I('ll) write', 'I'm writing'.<br><br>* Alternatively: <span dir="rtl" style="" lang="HE">איך גיב
אַ שרײַב</span><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span><span lang="HE"><span dir="ltr"></span><span dir="ltr"></span> </span><i>ikh gib a shrayb</i> ("I give
a write")<br><br>Isn't this something like using English "take" as in "I'll take a stroll" (= "I'll stroll"), "He's taking a nap" (= "He's napping"), "She won't take a turn" (= "She won't turn"), or "Go on! Take a lick!" (= "Go on! Lick!")?
<br><br>Thanks for the food for thought, and גוט שבת <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Gut Shabes</span></span>!<br><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br><br>----------<br><br>From: <span style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28);">
John Duckworth</span><span style="font-weight: normal;"> <<a href="mailto:johncduckworth@yahoo.co.uk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">johncduckworth@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br>
Subject: Lowlands-List. Grammar<br><br><div>Dear Ron and fellow Lowlanders,
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Given the very powerful advance of Standard High German in Germany
I am sure even many of the dialects have surrendered certain of their
own idiosyncratic features, and I have a suspicion that one of the
domains in which the influence of the Standard Language might have
exerted itself is in choosing what gender to assign to each specific
noun.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is well-known, for instance, that the genders of nouns in some
dialects are different from those accepted in the Standard Language; a
good example is Standard German die Butter, contrasting with Bavarian
der Butter (or der Buddaa).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have two questions about the use of genders in Low Saxon.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Firstly: Are there cases in which Low Saxon genders differ from those accepted in Standard (High) German?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Secondly: It seems generally accepted that Low Saxon still retains
three genders. Given the fact that the grammatical differences (for
example in the definite article and in adjectival endings) seem to be
in a state of constant erosion, are there dialects of Low Saxon in
which it would be true to say only two genders remain?</div><span>
<div> </div>
<div>John Duckworth</div>
<div>Manchester, UK<br><br>----------<br><br></div></span>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Grammar
<br><br>Hi, John!<br><br>This is an interesting question that might eventually be extended non-standard varieties of other Lowlands languages.
<br><br>As a kick-off, let me just mention that not only are there
numerous words that in Low Saxon have different genders than there
cognates in Standard German, but there are gender assignment
differences even among the Low Saxon dialects. I can't give you a slew
of examples right now, would need to look through lists of nouns first.
<br><br>Personally I am not aware of any Low Saxon dialect whose
number of genders has shrunken to two. Even though most dialects has
two morphological marker forms, the gender remains underlying and is
revealed at least by the corresponding personal pronoun; e.g., (~ =
dialectical variation):<br><br><span style="font-weight: bold;">Masculine</span> ('the X', 'a(n) X', 'one X' = 'he'): <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;"><br>de Mann</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n Mann</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een Mann</span> (man) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he </span>
(he)<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><br>
de Vagel</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Vagel</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">
</span><span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Vagel</span></span></span> <span style="font-style: italic;"></span>
(bird) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he </span>(he)<br><span style="font-style: italic;">de Disch, 'n Disch, een Disch</span> (table) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br><span style="font-style: italic;">
de Boom, 'n Boom, een Boom </span>(tree) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Steen, 'n Steen, een Steen </span>(stone, rock) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Foot, 'n Foot, een Foot </span>(foot) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Duum, 'n Duum, een Duum </span>(thumb) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Häven, 'n Häven, een Häven </span>(sky) = <span style="font-style: italic;">he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Maan(d), 'n </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Maan(d)</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Maan(d) </span>(moon) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Ries, 'n </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Ries</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Ries </span>(rice) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Hoff, 'n H</span><span style="font-style: italic;">off</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Hoff </span>(court, farm) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
he</span> (he)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Snack, 'n </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Snack</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een Snack </span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span>(talk, saying) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
he</span> (he)<br>
<br><span style="font-weight: bold;">Feminine</span> ('the X', 'a(n) X', 'one X' = 'she'):<br><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
de Fro ~ Fru, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) Fro</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> ~ Fru</span></span></span>,
<span style="font-style: italic;">
een(e) Fro</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> ~ Fru</span></span></span> (woman) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Katt, 'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Katt</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Katt</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>(cat) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se</span> (she)<br><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Dœr, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">
'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Dœr</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Dœr</span></span></span> (door) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Bloom, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Bloom</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Bloom</span>
</span></span> (flower) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Düün, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Düün</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Düün</span>
</span></span> (dune) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Bodder, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Bodder</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Bodder
</span>
</span></span>(butter) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Plant, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Plant</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) Plant</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span>
</span></span>(butter) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de Wulk, </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Wulk</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Wulk</span>
</span></span> (cloud) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se </span>(she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Sünn, 'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Sünn</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Sünn</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>(sun) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se</span> (she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Melk, 'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Melk</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Melk</span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>(milk) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se</span> (she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Saak, 'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Saak</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een(e) Saak</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>(thing, matter) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se</span> (she)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de Snackeree, 'n(e) </span><span style="font-style: italic;">Snackeree</span><span style="font-style: italic;">, een(e) Snackeree</span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span>(talking, gossip) = <span style="font-style: italic;">se</span> (she)<br><br><span style="font-weight: bold;">Neuter </span>('the X', 'a(n) X', 'one X' = 'it'): <br><span style="font-style: italic;">
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Kind</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n Kind</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">
een Kind</span> (child) = <span style="font-style: italic;">it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Peerd</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Peerd</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Peerd </span></span></span>(horse) = <span style="font-style: italic;">it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Dack</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Dack</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Dack</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(roof) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Book</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Book</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Book</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(book) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Brood</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Brood</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Brood </span></span></span>(bread) = <span style="font-style: italic;">it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Kruud</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n Kruud
</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een Kruud</span> (herb) = <span style="font-style: italic;">it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Water</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Water</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Water</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(water) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Hult</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> Hult</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;"> Hult</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(wood) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Been</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Been</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Been</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(leg) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Haar</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Haar</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Haar</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(hair) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Been</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Been</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Been</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>(leg) = <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et Snacken</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">
'n </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Snacken</span></span></span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">een </span><span style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">Snacken</span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"> </span></span></span>
(talking) =
<span style="font-style: italic;">it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"></span><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><br>There is a small number of cases in which within the same variety different genders have semantic significance; e.g.:<br><br>Masculine:
<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">de </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">Minsch ~ Mensch</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">'n
</span> <span style="font-style: italic;">Minsch ~ Mensch, </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">een </span>Minsch ~ Mensch</span> (human being) -> <span style="font-style: italic;">
he</span> (he)<br><br>Neuter:<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">dat ~ it ~ et </span></span></span><span style="font-style: italic;">Minsch ~ Mensch</span>, <span style="font-style: italic;">
'n</span> <span style="font-style: italic;">Minsch ~ Mensch, </span><span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-style: italic;">een </span>Minsch ~ Mensch</span> (unpleasant woman) -> <span style="font-style: italic;">
it ~ et ~ dat </span>(it)<br><br>Pronunciation:<br><br>Been = beyn [bɛˑɪn]<br>Bloom = bloum [blɔˑʊm]<br>Book = bouk [bɔˑʊk]<br>Boom = boum [bɔˑʊm]<br>Dœr = doer [døːɝ]<br>Foot = fout [fɔˑʊt]<br>Fro ~ Fru = vrou ~ vru [frɔˑʊ] ~ [fruː]
<br>Haar = haar [hɒːɝ] ~ [hoːɝ]<br>Häven = heven [hɛːvm] ~ [heːvm] ~ [hɛːbm] ~ [heːbm]<br>Maan(d) = maan(d) [mɒːn(t)] ~ [moːn(t)]<br>Mann = man [maˑn]<br>Peerd = peyrd [pɛɪɝt] ~ [piːɝt]<br>Ries = rys [riːs]<br>Saak = saak [zɒːk]
<br>Snacken = snakken ['snakŋ]<br>Snackeree = snakkerey [snake'rɛˑɪ]<br>Steen = steyn [stɛˑɪn]<br>Vagel = vagel [fɒːgl] ~ [foːgl]<br>Water = water ['vɒːtɝ] ~ ['voːtɝ]<br><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="ZH-CN">
</span><br>Regards,<br>Reinhard/Ron<br>