<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">L O W L A N D S - L - 11 February 2007 - Volume 03</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">=========================================================================</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span id="_user_ptatum@blueyonder.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Tatum <<a href="mailto:ptatum@blueyonder.co.uk">ptatum@blueyonder.co.uk
</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Grammar'</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Hello all,<br> I'm not sure if this is 'Resources' or 'Grammar', but just Stumbled<br>across this article:<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/%7Emyl/languagelog/archives/004175.html" target="_blank">
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004175.html</a><br></div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="sg"><br>Paul Tatum<br><br>----------<br><br></span><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk" style="color: rgb(0, 104, 28); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates <<a href="mailto:wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk">wolf_thunder51@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span>
<span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.10 (05) [E]
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: </span><span style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">and from Ron;</span>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.09 (08) [E]<br><br></div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Re grammatical genders.</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I've
been looking at the Lowlands languages that ditched this, trying to get
a handle on timescales. Old English had gender, Middle English seems
largely to have lost it, but I suspect that in the spoken form it was
probably gone before 1066, only surviving in the formal, written
version.</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">I'm not sure if Scots retained the feature longer than English, assuming it no longer has it (Sandy?).</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;">And
how soon after settlement in South Africa did Afrikaans lose it?
presumably the parent form of Dutch still used gender in the mid 17th
Century.</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt; direction: ltr; font-family: arial,sans-serif;"> </div>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Paul Finlow-Bates</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">From: Luc Hellinckx <<a href="mailto:luc.hellinckx@gmail.com">luc.hellinckx@gmail.com</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar'</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Beste Ron,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
You wrote:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<blockquote style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" cite="http://mid57c981290702101722s6b36de1s3c17efa683077db0@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">John, Lowlanders, another way you can distinguish genders
is by the way adjectives are treated:<br>
<br>
Masculine:<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de lütt</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">e</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Placken</span> (the little/small spot)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">'n lütt</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">en</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Placken</span> (a little/small spot)<br>
<br>
Feminine:<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">de lütt</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">e</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Stuuv'</span> (the little/small room)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">'n lütt</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">e</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Stuuv' </span>(a little/small room)<br>
<br>
Neuter:<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">dat lütt</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;">e</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Huus</span> (the little/small house)<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">'n lütt</span><span style="font-weight: bold; color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">(</span>et)</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> Huus
</span> (a little/small house)<br>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">In Southern Dutch dialects, also through the use of either "die"
(masculine), "diene" (feminine) or "dat" (neuter) as a demonstrative
pronoun, e.g.:</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
that man = diene man ~ "daa(ne) man" (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
that woman = die vrouw ~ "dèè vraa" (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
that child = dat kind ~ "da kint" (B)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
But also for something/somebody nearby, the pronoun differs according
to gender (in Brabantish):</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
this man = "deze man"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
this woman = "dees vraa"</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
this child = "tees kind" (< 't dees kint)</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Kind greetings,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Luc Hellinckx</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
<br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_altkehdinger@freenet.de" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jonny Meibohm <<a href="mailto:altkehdinger@freenet.de">altkehdinger@freenet.de</a>></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg">
</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.10 (05) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><div style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;" id="mb_1">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="DE">
<div><span class="q">
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Ron wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><b><font color="teal" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: teal; font-weight: bold;">Steg </span></font></b><font color="teal"><span style="color: teal;">[stEC] m~n (walk, path) [German <i><span style="font-style: italic;">
Steg </span></i>[ste:k] m]</span></font></p></span><span class="q">
<p><b><font color="teal" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: teal; font-weight: bold;">Stieg'</span></font></b><font color="teal"><span style="color: teal;"> f~n (set of 20) [German <i><span style="font-style: italic;">
Stiege </span></i>f]</span></font></p>
</span><div>
<p style=""><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Just to complete it, Ron, in our LS _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Steg</span></i>_ m always means a small bridge crossing a water, and _
<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Stieg</span></i>_ m always is a path. Both words here
we also use when talking Standard German.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">This is very interesting in so far as
the „Herkunfts-Duden" says:</span></font></p>
<p style=""><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Das altgerm. Substantiv
mhd. stec »Steg, schmaler Fußpfad«, ahd. steg »Steg, Aufstieg«, niederl. steg
»schmaler Weg, Pfad«, älter schwed. stegh »Pfad« gehört zu dem unter steigen
behandelten Verb und bezeichnete <span style="background: lime none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">zunächst einen
schmalen, erhöhten Übergang über ein Gewässer, auf den man meist hinaufsteigen
musste.</span> Die reimende Fügung »Weg und Steg« ist schon mhd. bezeugt. In
ihr bedeutet »Steg« bereits »Pfad«. </span></font></p>
<p style=""><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Duden - Das
Herkunftswörterbuch, 3. Aufl. Mannheim 2001 [CD-ROM] </span></font></p>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Very archaic, isn't it? Maybe, DUDEN
didn't know the Kehdinger marshlands ;-)...</span></font></p>
<p style=""><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">For G _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Stiege</span></i>_ f ~</span></font>n
; DUDEN: (quote)"(Verschlag, flache [Latten]kiste; Zählmaß [20 Stück]; enge
Holztreppe;<i><span style="font-style: italic;"> bes. südd., österr. für</span></i>
Treppe[nflur]")(unquote)</p>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">native people here like to say _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Stiege</span></i>_ or even _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Steige</span>
</i>_ f but only in the meaning of ‚crate'
or the mentioned ‚set of 20'. This way they try to avoid confusion with the LS
_<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Stieg</span></i>_ as shown above.I also
heard people use _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Halvstieg</span></i>_ f
(meaning set of 10) but it's no longer in daily use.</span></font></p>
<p><b><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Hacksel</span></font></b> m~n (mince)</p>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">Here we say _Hackels_ m</span></font></p><span class="q">
<p><b><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Laak </span></font></b>f~n (brine) [German <i><span style="font-style: italic;">Lake </span></i>f]</p></span>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">This at first would be a shallow water
(s. E:‚lake'), a swamp, but it also is used for brine</span></font></p><span class="q">
<p><b><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-weight: bold;">Spitt </span></font></b>m~n (spit, stake) [German <i><span style="font-style: italic;">Spieß </span></i>m]</p></span>
<p><font color="black" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;">This would be a G _<i><span style="font-style: italic;">Spatenstich</span></i>_ m, ‚cut with a spade', often as
a measure (about 20cm/8'' into the ground)</span></font></p>
<p><font size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Kumpelmenten<font color="black"><span style="color: black;"><br>
<br>
Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm</span></font></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">----------</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
From: </span><span id="_user_Dutchmatters@comcast.net" style="color: rgb(91, 16, 148); font-family: arial,sans-serif;">Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <<a href="mailto:Dutchmatters@comcast.net">Dutchmatters@comcast.net</a>
></span><span style="font-weight: normal; font-family: arial,sans-serif;" class="lg"></span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;">
Subject: LL-L 'Grammar' 2007.02.10 (05) [E]</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Re the "gender" issue.:
</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Ron's list of words with different gender
in the different dialects has some interesting ones.</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">It struck me that the word Laak meant
brine. Does that mean that the word Laak used in German as E:</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Lake</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">
must be a saltwater lake?
In Dutch laak is defined as a small stream. It is difficult to make sense of
all these words since all of </span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Northwestern Europe</span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">
was at one time one gigantic brackish wetland. In this respect
there is also D:meer= G:See and D:zee = G:Meer. </span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">"Het baantje" ( a job that is fun and is
not necessarily to be taken seriously ) must be of Dutch origin since it has
the typical Dutch diminutive ending. Because it is diminutive it must have a
neuter gender in Dutch. It is derived from "de baan" (a job as a life-path,
complete with watch-fob and bowler hat). Does this imply that the speakers of
one dialect take their work more seriously than the other? Jacqueline</span></font></p>
<p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Jonny notes that many of my fellow Dutch
resort to using "die" as the general article when they are faced with the
choice between die, das and der and their forms in different cases. </span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;" lang="DE">I remember Miss Roberts, my German teacher in high school,
yelling at me "und Sie mit einer Deutschen Grossmutter und noch so slechtes
Deutsch"…. </span></font><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">It is indeed difficult to
keep track of the difference between masculine and feminine nouns when your own
language has lost the feeling for the difference between them. More recently,
my solution for the problem has been to become an equal opportunity speaker of bad
German. I alternate "Gender" across the board. "Der" on Monday, "Die" on
Tuesday and "Das" on Wednesday etc. etc. At least I am right some of the time…..
Just musing, Jacqueline</span></font></p><p style="font-family: arial,sans-serif;"><font color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;"></span></font><br>
</p>