<br>L O W L A N D S - L - 17 February 2007 - Volume 01<br><br>=========================================================================<br><br>From: <span id="_user_karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net" style="color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">
Karl-Heinz Lorenz <<a href="mailto:karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net">karl-heinz.lorenz@gmx.net</a>></span><br>Subject: LL-L "Yiddish' 2007.02.16 (01) [E]<br><br><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Lee
(Goldberg) wrote:</font></span><span class="q">
<p><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>I don't know much
about Alsatian Yiddish, but I'll venture a guess about a couple of the words
Karl-Heinz listed:</p><span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>SPEIS(T)ISCH
z'Nacht </div></span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>"shabes
tsunakht/shabeyse nakht" ('Sabbath night')<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">But
the woman says definitely something like "Speisisch" whereas she says several
times "Shabbess" or "Shavess". It would mean that there are two words for
Sabbath in Alsatian-Yiddish. Or: "Shabbess" is the noun and
"speisisch"/shabeyse" an adjective.</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div><span></span> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>KA(R)PFE(N)</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>"kerb" (plural of
"korb", 'basket')<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Could be: ledige Karpfen = leere Körbe</font></span></div><span class="q"><span>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>Z'KCHORRE LADER
Z'SCHLOMMES</div></span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>sounds like it might
be a Hebraism (designating members of some charitable society?) but I can'f
figure it out<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div></span>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">It
must be a profession "sinngemäß".</font> <font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Das ist die härteste Nuss, so sieht's jedenfalls
aus.</font></span></div><span class="q">
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>I agree with Ron that
we're dealing with a mixture of (Western) Yiddish and Alsatian German
influences. Which is the substratum and which the superstratum, I
don't<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span></div>
<div><span> </span>pretend<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">
</font></span>to<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>knowknow.<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>But <span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font>
</span>from the sample here,
words with the long A vowel, like</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>aach (NHG
'auch')</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>haamat, haam
('Heim(at)')<span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> , l</font></span>aafe(n) ('laufen')</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>gekaaft
('gekauft')</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>look like textbook
examples of Western Yiddish, while the diphthongal pronunciation of 'EI' in
things like</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>meini Kinderzeite(n)
</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>mei</div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>eigani</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>suggests an influence
from outside the Alemannic region (my understanding is that Alsatian German
has 'min' and 'zit' for NHG 'mein' and 'Zeit'). </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div></span>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>Definitely, you're right:</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>In
Alemannic it should be "MINE Hamat isch Grüsse(n) etc." and also in Alsatian.
But I'm not sure totally. But also if it's "mei" etc in Alsace, this would be
a non-Alemannic feature in it.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>The
woman always says "geweise(n)" whereas it is "gwan"/"gwä" or "gsi(n)" in
Alsatian. Grussenheim is in the "gsin"-Region, it is between Selestat and
Colmar:</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span><a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Els%C3%A4sserditsch.jpg" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Els%C3%A4sserditsch.jpg
</a></span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>"Geweise(n)" is not Alemannic but Suabian or Central
German as Palatine for example.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>And
"GarkiSCH" for "Garküche" (btw a "Schnellrestaurant" in the old days, a
kind of McDonalds then) looks also central German, because in
Alsatian I suppose it should be "GarkiCH".</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>And
there is the sentence: "Ich hab bei dir ka(kei) güti Sche ket(ghet)". She
starts in High German and continues in Jiddisch-deitsch.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>So
the conclusion is, that the jews in Alsace spoke a language, that was more or
less different from Alsatian, the language of the gojim.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>So what about a concept of West-Yiddish as
an "Ausgleichsprache" with features of different mostly Hight-German dialects
in it?</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span class="q"><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"> </font></span>(Incidentally,
'kimpet' = 'kind' + 'bet' is a common term for childbirth in Eastern
Yiddish.) <br><br></span><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Now I just listened to the
sample again and yes, it could be "kimpet" instead
of "kindbett".</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Karl-Heinz</font></span></div><br>----------<br><br>From: R. F. Hahn <<a href="mailto:sassisch@yahoo.com">sassisch@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: Yiddish<br><br>
Bùschùr, Karl-Heinz, an vielmols merci!<br><br>Dü hèsch obe gschriewe:<br><br>> <font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"><span>In
Alemannic it should be "MINE Hamat isch Grüsse(n) etc." and also in Alsatian.
But I'm not sure totally. But also if it's "mei" etc in Alsace, this would be
a non-Alemannic feature in it.</span></font><br><br>Not to put too fine a point on it (and to help a non-Lowlands tangent to go on for much longer), let me add that some Lowlanders may be a bit confused by the above, due to terminology.
<br><br>I was always under the impression that Alsatian <span style="font-weight: bold;">is</span> Alemannic, i.e. a branch of Low Alemannic. <br>(<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German
</a>)<br><br>So it seems to me that "Alsatian (Alemannic)" vs "other Alemannic varieties" or "non-Alsatian Alemannic" would make these distinction clearer.<br><br>Bis bàll!<br><br>Reinhard/Ron
<br><br>